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6 Nations 2020 squad.

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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 8:25am
Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

All those centres mentioned worry the hell out of me Parkes for poor form, Scott in a team that cannot do anything attack wise and he’s been injury riddled since going here sadly for him. North an awful 13 and watkin still imo is highly overrated. Troubling times for wales to find another good 13 and a solid on form 12 would be great. I’d honestly take steff over Hadleigh at 12 based on this season. Steff is not and shouldn’t be played at 13 there aren’t many who can play both apart from Scott and to a high standard! People certainly underestimated how good he was for us and kept our defensive back line honest.


Agree with that. If I were Watkin I'd leave the Ospreys asap and look to join a team where he's held to account. Honestly, know it wouldn't go down well here, but he'd be much better with us developing his running game. He's not kicked on since the U20s yet but showed quality at that level. Needs to 'fill out' a bit to play international rugby as he's not rapid, he's not really skillful, and he's not strong either. A bit of another Andrew Bishop in the making if he doesn't push himself. With us, he'd at least get running rugby under his belt, and that's the way Pivac and Steveo are going.

Honestly though it's a position of weakness in Wales. Three top class centres in the last 15 years: Henson, Foxy, and maybe Scott. Two of them never came close to reaching their potential. Jamie Roberts maximised his potential and he was a great servant but never a top centre. That's why we could line up with Parkes and Haloholo against the All Blacks in the summer. Absolute disgrace, really. Shouldn't be happening. Steff's not the answer either. Thomas Wheeler at the Ospreys looks decent but not seen enough of him to say he's ready for Wales yet.

Scott was massively underrated and still is. He makes mistakes for Wales which costs him, because he also has made far more game changing moves and plays and whatever than Roberts did in twice the caps Scott has. You can see why Gatland dropped him. If he played less heads up rugby and made fewer mistakes he would have picked him. Same with Pivac. He's too much of a natural rugby player and trusts his instincts a bit too much, which sometimes works magnificently, sometimes punishes the team. Scott was/is as equally talented as Foxy for me. Could have had equal careers.

Whilst I will agree with you about Scott's ability I certainly will not agree with your summing up of Jamie Roberts & your comparison with Hadleigh. Frankly Jamie would have been a far better selection for Japan at 12 with Gatland's very limited gameplan. In addition I do not foresee a time when Hadleigh gets the player of the series award for the British & Irish Lions which Jamie did playing alongside O'Driscoll in South Africa in 2009.

Gatland, for all his success with Wales, totally failed to get the best from a very capable Welsh backline and that is my abiding regret. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 10:23am
Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Sheedy's fine if he signs before he gets capped. I don't think he will play for England. Ireland is a more likely route. He'll know his caps will be limited for England. He's Welsh anyway. Properly Welsh, born and bred. He'll have wanted to play for Wales growing up and that's the big difference. I wouldn't stress Welsh boys doing a Dewi Morris tbh. Moriarty was never going to play for them. Same with Sheedy. The attractive thing for England is the matchday fee but it doesn't mean much if he wins 2 caps - great, £50k. But he'll earn loads more if he gets 50 Wales caps. He's also 24 years old so not young. I don't think there's a rush to cap new people in the Six Nations tbh. That's what next autumn and the summer tour in 2021 is for. It cheapens the cap and makes competition a bit of a joke. Have to reward form and consistency.

Also overlooked is how big the step up from regions to international rugby, and the likes of Parkes etc. probably can't play well in both. Look at Halfpenny and how well he's played since he was dropped. Not just coming back from the world cup, but last year as well. I think we forget how massive the step up can be and how much it takes out of players to the point it takes weeks to recover.

Whilst you are correct that Sheedy is Welsh born and bred, Eventhough being part of the squad, he refused to play for Wales u20s v Scotland (I think, could have been France) which would have tied him down to Wales. I belive he has played for Wales u20s but only in games that doesnt tie him to Wales.
He has also refused to play for England Saxons as that would have tied him to England, but he played for England XV, which was uncapped so again, did not tie him to a nation.
I cant see Ireland being an option for him unless he moves to one of the provinces...

24 now, so I would have thought if he has international aspiratinons, he needs to decide now ready for the next world cup.

Personally I see it between Wales and England, but seeing that he is playing in rugby, if he stays there with his new deal, he is more likely to choose England imo.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 10:44am
Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

All those centres mentioned worry the hell out of me Parkes for poor form, Scott in a team that cannot do anything attack wise and he’s been injury riddled since going here sadly for him. North an awful 13 and watkin still imo is highly overrated. Troubling times for wales to find another good 13 and a solid on form 12 would be great. I’d honestly take steff over Hadleigh at 12 based on this season. Steff is not and shouldn’t be played at 13 there aren’t many who can play both apart from Scott and to a high standard! People certainly underestimated how good he was for us and kept our defensive back line honest.


Agree with that. If I were Watkin I'd leave the Ospreys asap and look to join a team where he's held to account. Honestly, know it wouldn't go down well here, but he'd be much better with us developing his running game. He's not kicked on since the U20s yet but showed quality at that level. Needs to 'fill out' a bit to play international rugby as he's not rapid, he's not really skillful, and he's not strong either. A bit of another Andrew Bishop in the making if he doesn't push himself. With us, he'd at least get running rugby under his belt, and that's the way Pivac and Steveo are going.

Honestly though it's a position of weakness in Wales. Three top class centres in the last 15 years: Henson, Foxy, and maybe Scott. Two of them never came close to reaching their potential. Jamie Roberts maximised his potential and he was a great servant but never a top centre. That's why we could line up with Parkes and Haloholo against the All Blacks in the summer. Absolute disgrace, really. Shouldn't be happening. Steff's not the answer either. Thomas Wheeler at the Ospreys looks decent but not seen enough of him to say he's ready for Wales yet.

Scott was massively underrated and still is. He makes mistakes for Wales which costs him, because he also has made far more game changing moves and plays and whatever than Roberts did in twice the caps Scott has. You can see why Gatland dropped him. If he played less heads up rugby and made fewer mistakes he would have picked him. Same with Pivac. He's too much of a natural rugby player and trusts his instincts a bit too much, which sometimes works magnificently, sometimes punishes the team. Scott was/is as equally talented as Foxy for me. Could have had equal careers.
Yea have to agree with the Scott comments he is a bit more of a riskier player but when you look at who’s he playing with in recent years you can see why, he needs foxy along side him someone who is on the same thinking level as him to compliment one another, recently he’s been paired up with less abled centres and I can feel the frustration in Scott. I’d be happy to swap him for Hadleigh right now and was the case before tbh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Sheedy's fine if he signs before he gets capped. I don't think he will play for England. Ireland is a more likely route. He'll know his caps will be limited for England. He's Welsh anyway. Properly Welsh, born and bred. He'll have wanted to play for Wales growing up and that's the big difference. I wouldn't stress Welsh boys doing a Dewi Morris tbh. Moriarty was never going to play for them. Same with Sheedy. The attractive thing for England is the matchday fee but it doesn't mean much if he wins 2 caps - great, £50k. But he'll earn loads more if he gets 50 Wales caps. He's also 24 years old so not young. I don't think there's a rush to cap new people in the Six Nations tbh. That's what next autumn and the summer tour in 2021 is for. It cheapens the cap and makes competition a bit of a joke. Have to reward form and consistency.

Also overlooked is how big the step up from regions to international rugby, and the likes of Parkes etc. probably can't play well in both. Look at Halfpenny and how well he's played since he was dropped. Not just coming back from the world cup, but last year as well. I think we forget how massive the step up can be and how much it takes out of players to the point it takes weeks to recover.

Whilst you are correct that Sheedy is Welsh born and bred, Eventhough being part of the squad, he refused to play for Wales u20s v Scotland (I think, could have been France) which would have tied him down to Wales. I belive he has played for Wales u20s but only in games that doesnt tie him to Wales.
He has also refused to play for England Saxons as that would have tied him to England, but he played for England XV, which was uncapped so again, did not tie him to a nation.
I cant see Ireland being an option for him unless he moves to one of the provinces...

24 now, so I would have thought if he has international aspiratinons, he needs to decide now ready for the next world cup.

Personally I see it between Wales and England, but seeing that he is playing in rugby, if he stays there with his new deal, he is more likely to choose England imo.


If Sheedy can't decide if he wants to play for England or Wales then do we really want him. A friend of mine who supports Bristol tells me that he better make the most of his Bristol 10 shirt this season as he will be bench material soon because of Ioan Lloyd's progress. In all seriousness his best chance at getting a cap would probably be with Ireland who have a serious problem at 10 at the moment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miaow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

All those centres mentioned worry the hell out of me Parkes for poor form, Scott in a team that cannot do anything attack wise and he’s been injury riddled since going here sadly for him. North an awful 13 and watkin still imo is highly overrated. Troubling times for wales to find another good 13 and a solid on form 12 would be great. I’d honestly take steff over Hadleigh at 12 based on this season. Steff is not and shouldn’t be played at 13 there aren’t many who can play both apart from Scott and to a high standard! People certainly underestimated how good he was for us and kept our defensive back line honest.


Agree with that. If I were Watkin I'd leave the Ospreys asap and look to join a team where he's held to account. Honestly, know it wouldn't go down well here, but he'd be much better with us developing his running game. He's not kicked on since the U20s yet but showed quality at that level. Needs to 'fill out' a bit to play international rugby as he's not rapid, he's not really skillful, and he's not strong either. A bit of another Andrew Bishop in the making if he doesn't push himself. With us, he'd at least get running rugby under his belt, and that's the way Pivac and Steveo are going.

Honestly though it's a position of weakness in Wales. Three top class centres in the last 15 years: Henson, Foxy, and maybe Scott. Two of them never came close to reaching their potential. Jamie Roberts maximised his potential and he was a great servant but never a top centre. That's why we could line up with Parkes and Haloholo against the All Blacks in the summer. Absolute disgrace, really. Shouldn't be happening. Steff's not the answer either. Thomas Wheeler at the Ospreys looks decent but not seen enough of him to say he's ready for Wales yet.

Scott was massively underrated and still is. He makes mistakes for Wales which costs him, because he also has made far more game changing moves and plays and whatever than Roberts did in twice the caps Scott has. You can see why Gatland dropped him. If he played less heads up rugby and made fewer mistakes he would have picked him. Same with Pivac. He's too much of a natural rugby player and trusts his instincts a bit too much, which sometimes works magnificently, sometimes punishes the team. Scott was/is as equally talented as Foxy for me. Could have had equal careers.

Whilst I will agree with you about Scott's ability I certainly will not agree with your summing up of Jamie Roberts & your comparison with Hadleigh. Frankly Jamie would have been a far better selection for Japan at 12 with Gatland's very limited gameplan. In addition I do not foresee a time when Hadleigh gets the player of the series award for the British & Irish Lions which Jamie did playing alongside O'Driscoll in South Africa in 2009.

Gatland, for all his success with Wales, totally failed to get the best from a very capable Welsh backline and that is my abiding regret. 


Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on Roberts as he was a very good player for Wales, but the point I'm trying to make is about all round 'talent' and basic skills. Not effort not professionalism not any of that, leadership etc., and the things Roberts excelled in. Roberts' footballing skills were really poor and yes, he looked good for the Lions in 09 alongside BOD, but you should also give the Cambridge Varsity game a watch some time. He is not a naturally talented rugby player. And for me, Parkes just has a more rounded game. It's also not fair to compare a 33 year old Parkes to Roberts at his peak aged, what, 22? Before any major injuries etc. In hindsight, though, I think we would have been better off with Roberts than either one of the two half-injured centres we had out in Japan. Once Foxy got injured against Fiji he should have gone home.

Either way the point is we've not produced top centres for Wales in anything close to the numbers we've produced top openside flankers or wingers. That mix of all round footballing ability, pace, and strength is rare it seems. Scott Williams had it all and the point I'd make is he could easily be a 6 cap Lion with 100 Wales caps at the end of his career under a different head coach. Same goes for Tipuric and Lydiate, Gatland favoured Lydiate over Tipuric for ages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miaow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Sheedy's fine if he signs before he gets capped. I don't think he will play for England. Ireland is a more likely route. He'll know his caps will be limited for England. He's Welsh anyway. Properly Welsh, born and bred. He'll have wanted to play for Wales growing up and that's the big difference. I wouldn't stress Welsh boys doing a Dewi Morris tbh. Moriarty was never going to play for them. Same with Sheedy. The attractive thing for England is the matchday fee but it doesn't mean much if he wins 2 caps - great, £50k. But he'll earn loads more if he gets 50 Wales caps. He's also 24 years old so not young. I don't think there's a rush to cap new people in the Six Nations tbh. That's what next autumn and the summer tour in 2021 is for. It cheapens the cap and makes competition a bit of a joke. Have to reward form and consistency.

Also overlooked is how big the step up from regions to international rugby, and the likes of Parkes etc. probably can't play well in both. Look at Halfpenny and how well he's played since he was dropped. Not just coming back from the world cup, but last year as well. I think we forget how massive the step up can be and how much it takes out of players to the point it takes weeks to recover.

Whilst you are correct that Sheedy is Welsh born and bred, Eventhough being part of the squad, he refused to play for Wales u20s v Scotland (I think, could have been France) which would have tied him down to Wales. I belive he has played for Wales u20s but only in games that doesnt tie him to Wales.
He has also refused to play for England Saxons as that would have tied him to England, but he played for England XV, which was uncapped so again, did not tie him to a nation.
I cant see Ireland being an option for him unless he moves to one of the provinces...

24 now, so I would have thought if he has international aspiratinons, he needs to decide now ready for the next world cup.

Personally I see it between Wales and England, but seeing that he is playing in rugby, if he stays there with his new deal, he is more likely to choose England imo.



I don't remember this but fortunately the law has changed now that the Wales A team - which will never play an actual game, nor be an actual team - is the second representative side, and so Welsh players won't be tied to Wales if they play U20s rugby.

However, for players in England not playing for the U20s it's really very simple - it's to do with their employers. Their clubs. If they count as a foreign player at 18 or 19 or even 20, that's a nightmare as it stops Britsol from employing a star signing. Players do it so they can be counted as English nominally speaking so they stay employed by the clubs and academies that train them and pay them, without any real hopes or likelihood of actually picking England over Wales.

It's nothing to do with national pride or identity and everything to do with economics.

Just listen to him speak. He's Welsh. If/when he's good enough he'll get a call up for Wales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miaow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 4:24pm
Final point on Scott - I actually think he would have made a great 13 outside a ball playing 12 like Henson. Or someone like Farrell. Have him focus on being lean and fit and keep his pace up so he can make outside breaks and have the strength to hold off the cover defence. He's a great, natural try scorer and he was wasted being asked to play as a crashball 12. I'm not sure his decision making has been good enough as a 12 over the years, although he's still a very good 12 and could have worked on that side of his game under the right coach and guidance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 7:55pm
There’s a number of interesting centre combo possibilities.
I don’t think any include Scott right now though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 9:20pm
What's the situation with Tyler Morgan? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miaow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2020 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

There’s a number of interesting centre combo possibilities.
I don’t think any include Scott right now though.


Really?! By interesting do you mean...potential horror show? There really aren't many centres up to scratch as I see it.



Tyler Morgan's never looked like an international rugby player to me. He'd probably be playing reserve team rugby in the Premiership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 5:26am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

There’s a number of interesting centre combo possibilities.
I don’t think any include Scott right now though.
Sorry to hear that. 

Hopefully, things will change for the better soon.
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

There’s a number of interesting centre combo possibilities.
I don’t think any include Scott right now though.
Sorry to hear that. 

Hopefully, things will change for the better soon.

Well Wil that can only mean that he is not fully fit because he is head & shoulders above all the other centres being mentioned. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 10:11am
So we are expecting up to 4 new caps to the squad :-

Jonny
Tompkins
Rees-Zammit
WillGriff John.

Interestingly 3 of the 4 have been developed in England - does question the principle of play in Wales play for Wales especially when injuries take their toll on our limited availability. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 10:27am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

There’s a number of interesting centre combo possibilities.
I don’t think any include Scott right now though.
Sorry to hear that. 

Hopefully, things will change for the better soon.

Well Wil that can only mean that he is not fully fit because he is head & shoulders above all the other centres being mentioned. 

Scott has made an “ Annus Horribulus” for sure or probably two of them!! Hope his luck picks up soon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scarletstarch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 10:57am
I feel for Scott as he's been very unlucky with injuries since his move to the Ospreys, hopefully he will soon be back fit and healthy and perhaps one day we will see him back in a Scarlets' jersey! Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2020 at 11:13am
Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by miaow miaow wrote:

Sheedy's fine if he signs before he gets capped. I don't think he will play for England. Ireland is a more likely route. He'll know his caps will be limited for England. He's Welsh anyway. Properly Welsh, born and bred. He'll have wanted to play for Wales growing up and that's the big difference. I wouldn't stress Welsh boys doing a Dewi Morris tbh. Moriarty was never going to play for them. Same with Sheedy. The attractive thing for England is the matchday fee but it doesn't mean much if he wins 2 caps - great, £50k. But he'll earn loads more if he gets 50 Wales caps. He's also 24 years old so not young. I don't think there's a rush to cap new people in the Six Nations tbh. That's what next autumn and the summer tour in 2021 is for. It cheapens the cap and makes competition a bit of a joke. Have to reward form and consistency.

Also overlooked is how big the step up from regions to international rugby, and the likes of Parkes etc. probably can't play well in both. Look at Halfpenny and how well he's played since he was dropped. Not just coming back from the world cup, but last year as well. I think we forget how massive the step up can be and how much it takes out of players to the point it takes weeks to recover.

Whilst you are correct that Sheedy is Welsh born and bred, Eventhough being part of the squad, he refused to play for Wales u20s v Scotland (I think, could have been France) which would have tied him down to Wales. I belive he has played for Wales u20s but only in games that doesnt tie him to Wales.
He has also refused to play for England Saxons as that would have tied him to England, but he played for England XV, which was uncapped so again, did not tie him to a nation.
I cant see Ireland being an option for him unless he moves to one of the provinces...

24 now, so I would have thought if he has international aspiratinons, he needs to decide now ready for the next world cup.

Personally I see it between Wales and England, but seeing that he is playing in rugby, if he stays there with his new deal, he is more likely to choose England imo.



I don't remember this but fortunately the law has changed now that the Wales A team - which will never play an actual game, nor be an actual team - is the second representative side, and so Welsh players won't be tied to Wales if they play U20s rugby.

However, for players in England not playing for the U20s it's really very simple - it's to do with their employers. Their clubs. If they count as a foreign player at 18 or 19 or even 20, that's a nightmare as it stops Britsol from employing a star signing. Players do it so they can be counted as English nominally speaking so they stay employed by the clubs and academies that train them and pay them, without any real hopes or likelihood of actually picking England over Wales.

It's nothing to do with national pride or identity and everything to do with economics.

Just listen to him speak. He's Welsh. If/when he's good enough he'll get a call up for Wales.

Yes. he's Welsh- but Callum Sheedy is on record as wanting to keep his options open regarding Wales and Ireland.
then, he represented England XV...
There has been plenty of English based players in the u20s set up all committed to Wales. not many have refused to play in my memory apart from Callum Sheedy and Rory Bartle. Add in then the likes of billy vunipola who were lost to the English system after u18s.

of course idientity has something to do with it. especially if you see yourself as Welsh/English or whatever. Take the actor Nick Frost. Born and bred in England. Has a Welsh mother...he identifies himself as Welsh. 




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