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Mrfwon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrfwon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 11:17am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by geordie scarlet geordie scarlet wrote:

It,s no surprise that the Irb and other oficials are backing Rolland... they have to ! It would open up a whole new can of worms and also alienate the official , leaving them open to further scrutiny etc
 

I have read the posts, and have my own opinion. In my view as per the letter of the law, it was a red.. however there is something that an experienced ref at this level should possess which is common sense and game management.. not black and white blinkers !

 

In life today, numerous decisions will be made. Some people,s lives will be affected by them, some will learn from them, some will not learn from them.. but it,s the decision makers that should weigh up all the possibilities and manage what,s best for the individual, the decision maker and possibly society in general ... this comes from experience.. something that in a refeering capacity Mr Rolland has in abundance   

 

I make decisions daily, and i do them within the law. I weigh up the options, and i can justify every enforcement action that i do... i make these with the above thoughts in my mind  

 

On Saturday, Alain Rolland made a bad decision, by not weighing up the game options, the individuals options, the role that the paying and watching public play in this game, and could have managed it better, rather than applying the blinkers. In my view, he will always be known as the man who cost Wales a world cup final place   


Pretty good post. But I just think that had Alain Rolland not given a red card, after the IRB had just re-iterated that this exact offence was RED and nothing else. His position as an international referee would have become untenable.
What, just like the other refs in the tournament who didn't issue red cards for similar incidents! Shocked The Fiji/South Africa spear incident being far worse than the Warbs one, yet what was issued there! Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:


What, just like the other refs in the tournament who didn't issue red cards for similar incidents! Shocked The Fiji/South Africa spear incident being far worse than the Warbs one, yet what was issued there! Shocked


It's been discussed at length in the other thread.

Referees met with IRB after pool stages to discuss why yellows were incorrectly given.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrfwon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 11:59am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:


What, just like the other refs in the tournament who didn't issue red cards for similar incidents! Shocked The Fiji/South Africa spear incident being far worse than the Warbs one, yet what was issued there! Shocked


It's been discussed at length in the other thread.

Referees met with IRB after pool stages to discuss why yellows were incorrectly given.
 
Were any of those players subsequently cited, regardless of whether the yellows were incorrectly given or not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:


Were any of those players subsequently cited, regardless of whether the yellows were incorrectly given or not?


I don't believe so.

But you're right in focusing your attention to the incorrectly given yellows rather than the correctly given red card. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by geordie scarlet geordie scarlet wrote:

It,s no surprise that the Irb and other oficials are backing Rolland... they have to ! It would open up a whole new can of worms and also alienate the official , leaving them open to further scrutiny etc
 

I have read the posts, and have my own opinion. In my view as per the letter of the law, it was a red.. however there is something that an experienced ref at this level should possess which is common sense and game management.. not black and white blinkers !

 

In life today, numerous decisions will be made. Some people,s lives will be affected by them, some will learn from them, some will not learn from them.. but it,s the decision makers that should weigh up all the possibilities and manage what,s best for the individual, the decision maker and possibly society in general ... this comes from experience.. something that in a refeering capacity Mr Rolland has in abundance   

 

I make decisions daily, and i do them within the law. I weigh up the options, and i can justify every enforcement action that i do... i make these with the above thoughts in my mind  

 

On Saturday, Alain Rolland made a bad decision, by not weighing up the game options, the individuals options, the role that the paying and watching public play in this game, and could have managed it better, rather than applying the blinkers. In my view, he will always be known as the man who cost Wales a world cup final place   


Pretty good post. But I just think that had Alain Rolland not given a red card, after the IRB had just re-iterated that this exact offence was RED and nothing else. His position as an international referee would have become untenable.
What, just like the other refs in the tournament who didn't issue red cards for similar incidents! Shocked The Fiji/South Africa spear incident being far worse than the Warbs one, yet what was issued there! Shocked


You mean this one ?
Cited & Banned !

http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/09/2152/dominiko-waqaniburotu-suspension-upheld-for-tackle-on-pat-lambie

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/other-rugby-world-cup-news/2011/09/20/fiji-forward-dominiko-waqaniburotu-suspended-for-wales-game-over-dangerous-tackle-91466-29453301/





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

[QUOTE=geordie scarlet] It,s no surprise that the Irb and other oficials are backing Rolland... they have to ! It would open up a whole new can of worms and also alienate the official , leaving them open to further scrutiny etc
 

I have read the posts, and have my own opinion. In my view as per the letter of the law, it was a red.. however there is something that an experienced ref at this level should possess which is common sense and game management.. not black and white blinkers !

 

In life today, numerous decisions will be made. Some people,s lives will be affected by them, some will learn from them, some will not learn from them.. but it,s the decision makers that should weigh up all the possibilities and manage what,s best for the individual, the decision maker and possibly society in general ... this comes from experience.. something that in a refeering capacity Mr Rolland has in abundance   

 

I make decisions daily, and i do them within the law. I weigh up the options, and i can justify every enforcement action that i do... i make these with the above thoughts in my mind  

 

On Saturday, Alain Rolland made a bad decision, by not weighing up the game options, the individuals options, the role that the paying and watching public play in this game, and could have managed it better, rather than applying the blinkers. In my view, he will always be known as the man who cost Wales a world cup final place   


Pretty good post. But I just think that had Alain Rolland not given a red card, after the IRB had just re-iterated that this exact offence was RED and nothing else. His position as an international referee would have become untenable.[/QUOTE]
 
Really? How do you come to that extreme conclusion? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:


Really? How do you come to that extreme conclusion? 


This is about the 6th time I've posted this:

Because his boss expressely told all referees 2 weeks before that any tip tackles were red. And nothing else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:


Really? How do you come to that extreme conclusion? 


This is about the 6th time I've posted this:

Because his boss expressely told all referees 2 weeks before that any tip tackles were red. And nothing else.
Non sequitur!
Please try to answer the question.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:



Really? How do you come to that extreme conclusion? 


This is about the 6th time I've posted this:

Because his boss expressely told all referees 2 weeks before that any tip tackles were red. And nothing else.
Non sequitur!
Please try to answer the question.  


Paddy O'Brien would have been furios had Rolland not given red. Who knows if he would have not reffed internationally again, but why on earth risk it by not following direct orders?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:01pm
As posted elsewhere by me, this is my take on the whole issue now.


Every tackle from now on like Sam's should be met with a red. If it is missed by the ref then a player should be cited and then banned, if not then then it makes a mockery of the 'law'.

If a ref sees the incident and does not act on it by giving a red then they should be hauled in front of the IRB. Mr Rolland has now set the tone (correctly according to the rules, daft bloody rule in my eyes) so i now expect every incident to be treated in the same manner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:04pm
Trouble is, if a red is not shown, they will probably try and claim it falls into bracket 3) below:

1- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

2- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

3- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient

Very difficult when you only get one fast view of it, to determine which one of those 3 it comes under.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarlet_rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:08pm
Maybe it would be better if players wore belts with tags on. Grab a tag off the belt instead of tackling. No one gets hurt then.

KidA, a bit over dramatic with the untenable bit, if he'd given a yellow there would be no issue and nobody would be talking about it now. That's because it would have been the right decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:09pm
Beg to differ.
Possibly O'Brien might have got into a Paddy but you can't seriously think that Rolland would never have refereed another international if he had handed out a yellow!!
Big risk for Rolland not to have given a red was it?  Come on. More like it that he had a rush of blood and made a hasty decision which, I hope, he will repent at leisure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by scarlet_rob scarlet_rob wrote:

if he'd given a yellow there would be no issue and nobody would be talking about it now. That's because it would have been the right decision.


I agree in that the law is wrong. But you only need to read the story Scarletman has posted about a referee officiating at Newport to see that Rolland had little choice.

I don't like Rolland. He's egotistical and wants to be top of the class. But I don't think he had a rush of blood. I think he gave a red because that's what Paddy O'Brien has been banging on about for the last 2 years, and specifically the last 4 weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by scarlet_rob scarlet_rob wrote:

if he'd given a yellow there would be no issue and nobody would be talking about it now. That's because it would have been the right decision.


I agree in that the law is wrong. But you only need to read the story Scarletman has posted about a referee officiating at Newport to see that Rolland had little choice.

I don't like Rolland. He's egotistical and wants to be top of the class. But I don't think he had a rush of blood. I think he gave a red because that's what Paddy O'Brien has been banging on about for the last 2 years, and specifically the last 4 weeks.
Which is absolutley fine but as i have already said it now needs to be blanket red cards for this offence (we all know it wont be).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2011 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by geordie scarlet geordie scarlet wrote:

It,s no surprise that the Irb and other oficials are backing Rolland... they have to ! It would open up a whole new can of worms and also alienate the official , leaving them open to further scrutiny etc
 

I have read the posts, and have my own opinion. In my view as per the letter of the law, it was a red.. however there is something that an experienced ref at this level should possess which is common sense and game management.. not black and white blinkers !

 

In life today, numerous decisions will be made. Some people,s lives will be affected by them, some will learn from them, some will not learn from them.. but it,s the decision makers that should weigh up all the possibilities and manage what,s best for the individual, the decision maker and possibly society in general ... this comes from experience.. something that in a refeering capacity Mr Rolland has in abundance   

 

I make decisions daily, and i do them within the law. I weigh up the options, and i can justify every enforcement action that i do... i make these with the above thoughts in my mind  

 

On Saturday, Alain Rolland made a bad decision, by not weighing up the game options, the individuals options, the role that the paying and watching public play in this game, and could have managed it better, rather than applying the blinkers. In my view, he will always be known as the man who cost Wales a world cup final place   


Pretty good post. But I just think that had Alain Rolland not given a red card, after the IRB had just re-iterated that this exact offence was RED and nothing else. His position as an international referee would have become untenable.
that is simply untrue. umpteen spear tackles , tip tackles (not to mention gouging , high tackles, tackled in mid air at restarts and lineouts) collapsed scrums etc) have not received red cards in this world cup and most other rugby games. and that includes in games reffed by rolland himself.
 
it is NOT an automatic red card. warburton handled the player so well the ball wasnt even dropped. the tackled player also grabbed warburton round the neck and used his neck to swivel his own body in a different direction. clerc was put to the ground as safely as was physically possible by warburton. so safe he wasnt hurt and he didnt even drop the ball and the french players didnt even bother going to check if he was ok, they were more concerned with throwing punches and pressurising the ref into making the worst refereeing decision in the history of rugby
 
all the other spear tip tackles that didnt get red cards saw players drop players on their heads letting them go in mid air ir driving them neck first into the ground with recklessness and in some cases intent. the player dropped the ball and the referee followed the ball and was therefore distracted from the tip tackle itself. in this case the focus stayed on the tackler as the ball didnt get dropped elsewhere. its NOT as black and white as norling or anyone else suggests otherwise every player would get red carded and the directive wouldnt have 100s of words it would simParc y Scarletstate in all cases a tip tackle is a red card.
 
norling was a mostly poor referee and is not a liked man. he loves the centre of attention and loves the sound of his own voice. his opinions are governed by egotism and self interest in the amateur quango that is rugby referees
 
 
 
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