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Two games , no tries ..

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    Posted: 07 October 2020 at 6:05pm
2 games, no tries... But before that, 2 games 11 tries...
I know we are disappointed but let's not get carried away like Barcelona fans booing Messi if he didn't score a goal. 

We have played Toulon without Patch, Foxy, Liam...Then Munster, without Patch (OK he came on towards the end), Johnny Wiliams, Liam and Mcnicholl.
We have decent depth but we have come up against 2 very good sides. Should have won one of the fixtures, could have won both. 
Fact is we can get by against some teams without those players. We can push and challenge teams even without those players. But all those that are missing is pretty much an entire back line of sheer quality. 

Dan Jones is a decent 10. Steff Hughes is a decent squad player in midfield. When both play in the same side, it isn't going to allow the backs play with pace against the top sides. 

We don't need to make a big thing that we didn't score a try against Munster or Toulon IMO. 

As for the pack with Kelly, they have come on leaps and bounds already in the very limited time he has had them. That's evident already in my opinion. It's not going to click right away. He's 4 games in to his reign as forwards coach and progress is evident imo. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Mugwuffin Mugwuffin wrote:

Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

It’s the combo of dinky, steff and a totally out of form foxy that tbh won’t offer much creativity of line breaking potential. Get Asquith in there at 12 and give Morgan a go at 13 now.
It’s a bit early to call Foxy “totally out of form” isn’t it? He’s played one match and, one charge-down aside, didn’t have a bad game. 
He is out of form as he hasn’t played? Wasn’t giving 100% as he’s being eased back into it. It’s not a dig at him it’s just obvious after being out for so long. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

I think Dan is a decent outside half for us and the 2 games vs Bath and Toulon in Jan 2018 showed exactly what he is capable of , the conditions on saturday certainly didnt help matters and Munster didnt even look that attacking, its just they broke through tackles and had piggy back penalties into dangerous positions where they then scored tries from or had 1 crappy kick given back to them with a lazy defence allowing them to score their first try.

Munster were giving penalties away for fun at times and in areas where there were points on offer, so we were always going to take these points in the weather rather than be more attack minded and go for points
 
in fairness they scored 3 trys we scored none so they were a bit more of an attacking threat than us LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mugwuffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

It’s the combo of dinky, steff and a totally out of form foxy that tbh won’t offer much creativity of line breaking potential. Get Asquith in there at 12 and give Morgan a go at 13 now.
It’s a bit early to call Foxy “totally out of form” isn’t it? He’s played one match and, one charge-down aside, didn’t have a bad game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 12:02pm
It’s the combo of dinky, steff and a totally out of form foxy that tbh won’t offer much creativity of line breaking potential. Get Asquith in there at 12 and give Morgan a go at 13 now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:43am
Originally posted by EJPT EJPT wrote:

I don’t think its fair to pin all of the attacking woes on Dinky, the outside backs have offered very little and the speed at which the ball leaves the ruck is the main cause for concern. Our best attacking idea seems to be a little grubber in behind the defence and thats a 50:50 play at the best of times. 

I think we missed the Hadleigh Parkes type player where even with slow ball he is soaking up 2-3 defenders and making it to the gain line. 

Indeed what you say is correct. Look I don't think anyone on here doesn't value Dinky & what he can bring especially in poor weather conditions when tactical kicking is at a premium. However we compound the problem of picking him at 10 with his limited ability to threaten the line by selecting someone at 12 who is equally unthreatening. Saturday's conditions were calling out for a physical 12 to get us over the gainline. With Johnny unavailable why not Tyler who as I have said before is 15 kgs bigger than Steff and much quicker. 

With very limited threats at 10/12 opposition defences can easily blitz our outside backs with nothing keeping them honest inside. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Good call Dan at 10 is a conservative choice so is stef at 12 , both good players but not the most attacking options we have
 
Also we have gone from stevo as backs coach to dai flaningan, no disrespect but there is a drop in quality there to
 
Kelly has a big reputation as a forwards  coach, but we failed to defend a line out maul that effectively cost us the game but more importantly  we failed to have the courage of our convictions to eschew a kick at goal at   least attempt  one kick to the corner and for  the try.
 
 
Don't get me wrong we weren't awful by any stretch of the imagination but when they were down to 14 men we managed to score just 6 points but gave away over 20 in that period
 
Surely we should be doing better with our numerical advantage either by going for a line out drive against a side missing a defender or getting it wider and using our 1 man over lap
 
puzzling why we didn't do so and in all honesty didn't even attempt to do so
 
  

Sometimes there is no defending a well set maul I am afraid.

One thing I'd like to highlight was Dinky's kicks to touch were superb especially when kicking from a penalty. I wish we had gone to touch following the red card rather than take the (albeit very well taken) 3 points.
 
Very true which meant or refusal to try one was even odder, especially when POM was off the field
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:38am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Good call Dan at 10 is a conservative choice so is stef at 12 , both good players but not the most attacking options we have
 
Also we have gone from stevo as backs coach to dai flaningan, no disrespect but there is a drop in quality there to
 
Kelly has a big reputation as a forwards  coach, but we failed to defend a line out maul that effectively cost us the game but more importantly  we failed to have the courage of our convictions to eschew a kick at goal at   least attempt  one kick to the corner and for  the try.
 
 
Don't get me wrong we weren't awful by any stretch of the imagination but when they were down to 14 men we managed to score just 6 points but gave away over 20 in that period
 
Surely we should be doing better with our numerical advantage either by going for a line out drive against a side missing a defender or getting it wider and using our 1 man over lap
 
puzzling why we didn't do so and in all honesty didn't even attempt to do so
 
  

Sometimes there is no defending a well set maul I am afraid.

One thing I'd like to highlight was Dinky's kicks to touch were superb especially when kicking from a penalty. I wish we had gone to touch following the red card rather than take the (albeit very well taken) 3 points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:36am
Good call Dan at 10 is a conservative choice so is stef at 12 , both good players but not the most attacking options we have it maybe a case where we pick one or the other but not both together
 
Also we have gone from stevo as backs coach to dai flaningan, no disrespect but there is a drop in quality there to
 
Kelly has a big reputation as a forwards  coach, but we failed to defend a line out maul that effectively cost us the game but more importantly  we failed to have the courage of our convictions to eschew a kick at goal at   least attempt  one kick to the corner and for  the try.
 
 
Don't get me wrong we weren't awful by any stretch of the imagination but when they were down to 14 men we managed to score just 6 points but gave away over 20 in that period
 
Surely we should be doing better with our numerical advantage either by going for a line out drive against a side missing a defender or getting it wider and using our 1 man over lap
 
puzzling why we didn't do so and in all honesty didn't even attempt to do so
 
  


Edited by RR1972 - 06 October 2020 at 11:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJPT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:33am
I don’t think its fair to pin all of the attacking woes on Dinky, the outside backs have offered very little and the speed at which the ball leaves the ruck is the main cause for concern. Our best attacking idea seems to be a little grubber in behind the defence and thats a 50:50 play at the best of times. 

I think we missed the Hadleigh Parkes type player where even with slow ball he is soaking up 2-3 defenders and making it to the gain line. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Ian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:26am
Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

I think Dan is a decent outside half for us and the 2 games vs Bath and Toulon in Jan 2018 showed exactly what he is capable of , the conditions on saturday certainly didnt help matters and Munster didnt even look that attacking, its just they broke through tackles and had piggy back penalties into dangerous positions where they then scored tries from or had 1 crappy kick given back to them with a lazy defence allowing them to score their first try.

Munster were giving penalties away for fun at times and in areas where there were points on offer, so we were always going to take these points in the weather rather than be more attack minded and go for points

Dan is a really good outside, but needs a 12 as second playmaker. Dan kicked well satuday
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletsrules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:23am
I think Dan is a decent outside half for us and the 2 games vs Bath and Toulon in Jan 2018 showed exactly what he is capable of , the conditions on saturday certainly didnt help matters and Munster didnt even look that attacking, its just they broke through tackles and had piggy back penalties into dangerous positions where they then scored tries from or had 1 crappy kick given back to them with a lazy defence allowing them to score their first try.

Munster were giving penalties away for fun at times and in areas where there were points on offer, so we were always going to take these points in the weather rather than be more attack minded and go for points
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

Bringing together points from all threads here...

Wet and windy, kickable penalties, arguably the best goalkicker in the world = take the points. NZ do this ALL the time. But yes they score tries...

Yes, we aren't scoring enough tries and, once in the 22, not looking like it either. Red line fever, lack of head's up rugby, reading the space. We put a lot of pressure on, and ball retention has improved but I am still baffled by the approach of taking the ball of the scrum half standing still and THEN accelerating? What happened to taking the ball at pace?

Overall, we did well against a team that's always tough to beat, and the whole team should take some credit for that.

Steff Hughes - never going to be the most scintillating of centres but I think he's assured, makes very few mistakes and actually has a range of skills. He's the classic good club player. I have no problem with playing him when the need arises. Which brings me onto my main issue...

Dan Jones. Before I go any further, I'm going to say I don't think he's a bad player. In fact, I think he's pretty good at what he does. He's surprisingly brave for his size, a great tactical kicker, and a decent passer. BUT... I don't think it's surprisingly that our best attacking rugby came with Patchell at outside half. IMHO we CANNOT play attacking, running rugby with Dan Jones at OH. He doesn't have the speed, agility, running creativity or passing vision for this. And then when you put him alongside the mercurial but myopic Gareth Davies (love his abilities, but head's up vision is not one of his finest) you have nothing that can get a backline going. 

We have three other OHs in the squad now who are ALL creative and runners. A sign of the future progression of the team? Surely we should be starting one of these, with Dan Jones as the tactical switch option on the bench rather than the other way around?



Very sensible and balanced post. Have a thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 10:48am
I'd like to see Dan Davi(e)s being given a run out during the international period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

Bringing together points from all threads here...

Wet and windy, kickable penalties, arguably the best goalkicker in the world = take the points. NZ do this ALL the time. But yes they score tries...

Yes, we aren't scoring enough tries and, once in the 22, not looking like it either. Red line fever, lack of head's up rugby, reading the space. We put a lot of pressure on, and ball retention has improved but I am still baffled by the approach of taking the ball of the scrum half standing still and THEN accelerating? What happened to taking the ball at pace?

Overall, we did well against a team that's always tough to beat, and the whole team should take some credit for that.

Steff Hughes - never going to be the most scintillating of centres but I think he's assured, makes very few mistakes and actually has a range of skills. He's the classic good club player. I have no problem with playing him when the need arises. Which brings me onto my main issue...

Dan Jones. Before I go any further, I'm going to say I don't think he's a bad player. In fact, I think he's pretty good at what he does. He's surprisingly brave for his size, a great tactical kicker, and a decent passer. BUT... I don't think it's surprisingly that our best attacking rugby came with Patchell at outside half. IMHO we CANNOT play attacking, running rugby with Dan Jones at OH. He doesn't have the speed, agility, running creativity or passing vision for this. And then when you put him alongside the mercurial but myopic Gareth Davies (love his abilities, but head's up vision is not one of his finest) you have nothing that can get a backline going. 

We have three other OHs in the squad now who are ALL creative and runners. A sign of the future progression of the team? Surely we should be starting one of these, with Dan Jones as the tactical switch option on the bench rather than the other way around?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Raised By Peregos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2020 at 10:36am
Bringing together points from all threads here...

Wet and windy, kickable penalties, arguably the best goalkicker in the world = take the points. NZ do this ALL the time. But yes they score tries...

Yes, we aren't scoring enough tries and, once in the 22, not looking like it either. Red line fever, lack of head's up rugby, reading the space. We put a lot of pressure on, and ball retention has improved but I am still baffled by the approach of taking the ball of the scrum half standing still and THEN accelerating? What happened to taking the ball at pace?

Overall, we did well against a team that's always tough to beat, and the whole team should take some credit for that.

Steff Hughes - never going to be the most scintillating of centres but I think he's assured, makes very few mistakes and actually has a range of skills. He's the classic good club player. I have no problem with playing him when the need arises. Which brings me onto my main issue...

Dan Jones. Before I go any further, I'm going to say I don't think he's a bad player. In fact, I think he's pretty good at what he does. He's surprisingly brave for his size, a great tactical kicker, and a decent passer. BUT... I don't think it's surprisingly that our best attacking rugby came with Patchell at outside half. IMHO we CANNOT play attacking, running rugby with Dan Jones at OH. He doesn't have the speed, agility, running creativity or passing vision for this. And then when you put him alongside the mercurial but myopic Gareth Davies (love his abilities, but head's up vision is not one of his finest) you have nothing that can get a backline going. 

We have three other OHs in the squad now who are ALL creative and runners. A sign of the future progression of the team? Surely we should be starting one of these, with Dan Jones as the tactical switch option on the bench rather than the other way around?


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