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Any rumours?

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SospanMawr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 2:06pm
Rob and Ken are good at using their mobility to run at shoulders rather than bodies and then using their bulk to get through.
Cubby and Shingler are good at carrying in wide channels in mismatches against outside backs.
Ball, Elias, Boyde are our strongest one up carriers in midfield.
Wyn Jones, Emyr, Barclay are okay. More quantity carriers than quality.
Tom Price has very poor body positioning and aggression when carrying.
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dantheman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dantheman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


It's very well saying that we need more carriers and it doesn't matter where in the pack they play, but 8s are uniquely placed  for scrums in the opposition 22 and a powerful 8 is very difficult to stop from a scrum 5 -positions we have often squandered and is possibly a reason why we have not had too many bonus points compared to other sides with carrying 8s.

Ball carrying 8s and BPs....dont think theres much in that to be honest. 
We have the same amount of Try Bonus Points as Munster and have 1 more than Ulster....

Goes back to the points already made, the types of 8s that can get over the try line from 5m are getting rarer. When it comes to a scrum so close, these days, sides push the scrum over, look for penalty try or spread the ball. The pick up and score doesnt happen anywhere near as often these days.

It's not so much about getting over the gain line. Defences are too solid for that these days. What a big ball carrier buys you is space, as the defence has to put 2 or 3 bodies in to stop him. It also creates options, instead of the defence being able to spread the field every time.



Im aware of what they offer but...I just dont see that many of them around anymore. 
Our pack does need another ball carrier but doesn't have to be an 8 imo. 


Sorry I couldn't disagree more with that.

Look at all the teams in the Euro Cup semis this weekend. Clermont have Lee, Saracens have Vunipola, Leinster have Conan and Munster have Stander. All of them are huge carriers at 8.

Extend that to texams like Wasps who have Hughes, Toulon have Vermalen, La Rochelle have Vito and Qovu, Montpellier have Spies etc etc. All the top end teams in Europe have big ball carriers at 8 and some have them at 6 too. There are always exceptions to the rule but generally successful teams have big carriers at 8. The exceptions to the rule are usually teams who can't afford big carriers at 8 and so work out how to play another way. We are an example of that but it's far harder to be successful playing like that.

In the SH having a big 8 is becoming less of a trend but that's largely because those players are coveted by the NH teams and so the SH teams struggle to keep them and have to focus their carrying efforts elsewhere.

To increase our chances of getting far in tournaments we have to find another explosive carrier from somewhere, and preferably someone who can play 8. If it's a blindside who can play 8 then fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 3:17pm
Ben Morgan was such a revelation for us at 8 but since his swap and some England success, his career has apparently sunk. Shame really. 
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by dantheman dantheman wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


It's very well saying that we need more carriers and it doesn't matter where in the pack they play, but 8s are uniquely placed  for scrums in the opposition 22 and a powerful 8 is very difficult to stop from a scrum 5 -positions we have often squandered and is possibly a reason why we have not had too many bonus points compared to other sides with carrying 8s.

Ball carrying 8s and BPs....dont think theres much in that to be honest. 
We have the same amount of Try Bonus Points as Munster and have 1 more than Ulster....

Goes back to the points already made, the types of 8s that can get over the try line from 5m are getting rarer. When it comes to a scrum so close, these days, sides push the scrum over, look for penalty try or spread the ball. The pick up and score doesnt happen anywhere near as often these days.

It's not so much about getting over the gain line. Defences are too solid for that these days. What a big ball carrier buys you is space, as the defence has to put 2 or 3 bodies in to stop him. It also creates options, instead of the defence being able to spread the field every time.



Im aware of what they offer but...I just dont see that many of them around anymore. 
Our pack does need another ball carrier but doesn't have to be an 8 imo. 


Sorry I couldn't disagree more with that.

Look at all the teams in the Euro Cup semis this weekend. Clermont have Lee, Saracens have Vunipola, Leinster have Conan and Munster have Stander. All of them are huge carriers at 8.

Extend that to texams like Wasps who have Hughes, Toulon have Vermalen, La Rochelle have Vito and Qovu, Montpellier have Spies etc etc. All the top end teams in Europe have big ball carriers at 8 and some have them at 6 too. There are always exceptions to the rule but generally successful teams have big carriers at 8. The exceptions to the rule are usually teams who can't afford big carriers at 8 and so work out how to play another way. We are an example of that but it's far harder to be successful playing like that.

In the SH having a big 8 is becoming less of a trend but that's largely because those players are coveted by the NH teams and so the SH teams struggle to keep them and have to focus their carrying efforts elsewhere.

To increase our chances of getting far in tournaments we have to find another explosive carrier from somewhere, and preferably someone who can play 8. If it's a blindside who can play 8 then fine.


Name a genuine ball carrying 8 thats in our price range. That's the point. There aren't any. We have tried Morgan Allen. Rory Pitman. Chris Haluafia. Jack Condy. Timani.

When you get below the the players that you mention that are way out of our Price range, we are left with players that aren't much better than what we have really.

As you say, and I previously said, we have adapted a new game plan. 2 7s. Kieran Read is not that type of 8, but NZ have the hard runners elsewhere. Yes Reed will take the Ball but he's more of an athletic skilful 8. That's the type I see us going for. The actual carriers can wear 1,2, 3, 4, 5, 6, on their backs.
If you disagree fair enough, that's your opinion...this is mine.
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theflier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theflier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Ben Morgan was such a revelation for us at 8 but since his swap and some England success, his career has apparently sunk. Shame really. 

As I posted on PR to some idiotic english, imagine how he must feel, moved to england, and now average joe hughes is selected over him. Had he stayed in wales he could've competed for that 8 jersey for his whole career.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mugwuffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2017 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by theflier theflier wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Ben Morgan was such a revelation for us at 8 but since his swap and some England success, his career has apparently sunk. Shame really. 


As I posted on PR to some idiotic english, imagine how he must feel, moved to england, and now average joe hughes is selected over him. Had he stayed in wales he could've competed for that 8 jersey for his whole career.

He is English, though. I doubt he'd swap his 40 England caps for a hundred Welsh ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mundoscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2017 at 8:27am
I doubt he would, but I said when Ben left. Watch his game go backwards in a Gloucester shirt and how right I was. Such a great shame
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diego6754 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:25pm
A few options with the 8 situation...

Stick to what we have got and adapt our game plan.
Fix Jack Condy.
Develop Josh Mcloud.
Find a 'project player' who may turn in to a top notch ball carrying 8.

The one option that is not available to us is to go out and sign a world class 8, unfortunately we don't bat in that league. As for the other options I'm sure the club are looking in to and acting on all of them. In a perfect world for me we keep the cheque book in our pockets, fix Condy and develop McLoud as both have something about them. Really sorry for Condy, I think he could of been the answer.

On another note, Moriarty on an NDC would be lovely but not the answer, did a sterling job for Wales in every department apart from making yards in the 6 nations and if we had him i'd one to play him in is best position which is definately 6. A back row of Cubby, Mcloud and Moriarty would have a nice balance to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:32pm
Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

A few options with the 8 situation...

Stick to what we have got and adapt our game plan.
Fix Jack Condy.
Develop Josh Mcloud.
Find a 'project player' who may turn in to a top notch ball carrying 8.

The one option that is not available to us is to go out and sign a world class 8, unfortunately we don't bat in that league. As for the other options I'm sure the club are looking in to and acting on all of them. In a perfect world for me we keep the cheque book in our pockets, fix Condy and develop McLoud as both have something about them. Really sorry for Condy, I think he could of been the answer.

On another note, Moriarty on an NDC would be lovely but not the answer, did a sterling job for Wales in every department apart from making yards in the 6 nations and if we had him i'd one to play him in is best position which is definately 6. A back row of Cubby, Mcloud and Moriarty would have a nice balance to it.

One huge issue with that back row - lineout ability. Shingler brings a huge amount.
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diego6754 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diego6754 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:40pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

A few options with the 8 situation...

Stick to what we have got and adapt our game plan.
Fix Jack Condy.
Develop Josh Mcloud.
Find a 'project player' who may turn in to a top notch ball carrying 8.

The one option that is not available to us is to go out and sign a world class 8, unfortunately we don't bat in that league. As for the other options I'm sure the club are looking in to and acting on all of them. In a perfect world for me we keep the cheque book in our pockets, fix Condy and develop McLoud as both have something about them. Really sorry for Condy, I think he could of been the answer.

On another note, Moriarty on an NDC would be lovely but not the answer, did a sterling job for Wales in every department apart from making yards in the 6 nations and if we had him i'd one to play him in is best position which is definately 6. A back row of Cubby, Mcloud and Moriarty would have a nice balance to it.

One huge issue with that back row - lineout ability. Shingler brings a huge amount.


Yeah chuck Shingler in the mix to and it gets better. No reason why McLoud can't be used as a jumper though, especially with his current frame and Barclay is used a lot by Scotland. I love Shingler though, quite possibly the most under rated player in Wales!
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