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Brexit: the results

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    Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:19pm
Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.

It soon became clear to me that convinced Brexiters cold not be persuaded by any arguments to revise their opinions. I suppose, in a way, that was fair enough - nothing had actually happened, so the consequences were projections into the future. So, I more or less stopped posting into my own thread.

This is now a new thread in which I hope people - pro- and anti- Brexit - will post only FACTUAL material about what has happened, and will continue to happen. 

PLEASE use the original 'Brexit Bonus' thread for opinion and commentary.

I am inviting pro- and antis- to post stories about the REAL WORLD EFFECTS and not any projections or comments. I'll be posting a few of my own - just one topic to each post.  That, I hope, will make for some sort of clarity.

This is the first:

Exports of fish and shellfish to the EU

The amount of red tape now needed to export fish and shellfish to the EU has increased substantially since Brexit. This has put the future of several small firms in Wales and Scotland into jeopardy, it seems... we'll see if things get better over time. But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:


Some quotes from the report:

Until 1 January, when the new trading deal came into effect, 90% of Welsh shellfish was being exported to the EU - but the industry relies on being able to export to the continent as quickly as possible to keep the produce alive.

Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

"I can't do this again next week," she told BBC Wales. "I need a break.

"But I can't leave the fishermen without incomes for long."

She added: "We're a tiny little Welsh company, it's family run - we're fourth generation running it. We can't afford to take the hit."

The businesswoman said it was not only her business affected and there had been others in the queue for the ferry that had been refused.


Meanwhile, in North Wales:


On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.

The shellfish industry in Wales is not large - but it is an important part of many communities. It is worth £13.3m, while the mussel industry injects £10.7m into the Welsh economy on top.

There were around 564 regular fishers and 287 part timers, according to a 2017 study by the trade organisation Seafish.

The situation is the same in Scotland, which has a larger seafood industry:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274




Edited by aber-fan - 14 January 2021 at 1:22pm
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.

It soon became clear to me that convinced Brexiters cold not be persuaded by any arguments to revise their opinions. I suppose, in a way, that was fair enough - nothing had actually happened, so the consequences were projections into the future. So, I more or less stopped posting into my own thread.

This is now a new thread in which I hope people - pro- and anti- Brexit - will post only FACTUAL material about what has happened, and will continue to happen. 

PLEASE use the original 'Brexit Bonus' thread for opinion and commentary.

I am inviting pro- and antis- to post stories about the REAL WORLD EFFECTS and not any projections or comments. I'll be posting a few of my own - just one topic to each post.  That, I hope, will make for some sort of clarity.

This is the first:

Exports of fish and shellfish to the EU

The amount of red tape now needed to export fish and shellfish to the EU has increased substantially since Brexit. This has put the future of several small firms in Wales and Scotland into jeopardy, it seems... we'll see if things get better over time. But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:


Some quotes from the report:

Until 1 January, when the new trading deal came into effect, 90% of Welsh shellfish was being exported to the EU - but the industry relies on being able to export to the continent as quickly as possible to keep the produce alive.

Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

"I can't do this again next week," she told BBC Wales. "I need a break.

"But I can't leave the fishermen without incomes for long."

She added: "We're a tiny little Welsh company, it's family run - we're fourth generation running it. We can't afford to take the hit."

The businesswoman said it was not only her business affected and there had been others in the queue for the ferry that had been refused.


Meanwhile, in North Wales:


On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.

The shellfish industry in Wales is not large - but it is an important part of many communities. It is worth £13.3m, while the mussel industry injects £10.7m into the Welsh economy on top.

There were around 564 regular fishers and 287 part timers, according to a 2017 study by the trade organisation Seafish.

The situation is the same in Scotland, which has a larger seafood industry:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274



Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:38pm
Think all know I was anti-Brexit but I feel it is too soon to judge. It will need a couple of years before new regulations have been put in place before we can start to see and compare. As such, we are probably mostly still within the realms of speculation. 

It is fact that we now have an Irish Sea trade border. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:40pm
Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Think all know I was anti-Brexit but I feel it is too soon to judge. It will need a couple of years before new regulations have been put in place before we can start to see and compare. As such, we are probably mostly still within the realms of speculation. 

It is fact that we now have an Irish Sea trade border. 

We do indeed Dr M. However much doom and gloom had been peddled pre 31/12/2020  about imminent food shortages in Northern Irish supermarkets due to increased bureaucracy - can't say I have noticed any real time examples.

You are right we all need to take a little longer term view. I am just pleased that the armageddon at Dover & Holyhead never materialised. There will be teething problems for sure but leavers and remainers must be honest about any effects. Too much told you so and point scoring will only sour the debate which will remain relevant. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:58pm
I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:


A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:

True - but the date is significant:

  1. PUBLISHED: 10:28, Fri, Sep 27, 2019
  2. If you were to ask Mrs Edwards today, do you think you would get the same answer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.



Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation


Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 

Well, well see.

It seems there was a 24h delay on THIS side of the channel, and only 7h on the other side... suggesting the delay was caused by the British. (The report is not 100% clear on who was to blame on this side.)

The TV interview with Mrs Edwards - in tears - was pretty upsetting, if you saw it - could not find a link, unfortunately.

The point about increased red tape, though - 41 pieces of paper instead of one - are you happy with  that?

Too early to say if Portaloos will need to be installed along the motorway to Dover. We'll see. No facts there yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:


A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:

True - but the date is significant:

  1. PUBLISHED: 10:28, Fri, Sep 27, 2019
  2. If you were to ask Mrs Edwards today, do you think you would get the same answer?
It's too late to ask her today, she drank the kool aid and now is facing the consequences of her actions.
I have total sympathy for people who voted remain and are now lumped with this burden but in her case it's tough cack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.



Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation


Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 

Well, well see.

It seems there was a 24h delay on THIS side of the channel, and only 7h on the other side... suggesting the delay was caused by the British. (The report is not 100% clear on who was to blame on this side.)

The TV interview with Mrs Edwards - in tears - was pretty upsetting, if you saw it - could not find a link, unfortunately.

The point about increased red tape, though - 41 pieces of paper instead of one - are you happy with  that?

Too early to say if Portaloos will need to be installed along the motorway to Dover. We'll see. No facts there yet.

Well Aber I do have  a fact for you. My small business which I run with my wife from home has always exported a number of orders per week to Europe. Since 01/01/2021 I now have to complete some additional paperwork to accompany my goods to Europe. Is it more time consuming - yes; does it cost me any more money - no; does it bother me - not in the slightest because my decision to vote leave was based on far more important, long term issues. 

WTO rules and regulations would have made export life more demanding but again, from personal experience, nothing to overly concern me. Finally I will leave you with another fact which rather sums up the lunacy of small minded beaurocrats in Brussels - a Uk haulier had his ham & cheese sandwich confiscated at Rotterdam I think - apparently the Uk has suddenly become a major exporter of disease - you really couldn't make it and sums up quite succinctly why its the best thing we've done in many a year. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:


A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Here is another report from BBC Scotland:


A Scottish shellfish firm has warned it is on the brink of bankruptcy as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit red tape.

Lochfyne Langoustines managing director Jamie McMillan said his firm had already lost some consignments after they were found to be rotten by the time they arrived in France.

He also warned EU customers were now going to Denmark to buy langoustines.

Mr McMillan described it as a "very, very serious situation".



Edited by aber-fan - 14 January 2021 at 2:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:


A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 

How true - hence the problem.

Our local fish shop usually supplies excellent fresh fish and seafood from Cardigan Bay and elsewhere -https://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/

However, the post-holiday reopening is now "DELAYED UNTIL
WEDNESDAY 3RD FEBRUARY 2021*
THIS IS DUE TO VARIOUS
EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT HAS MASSIVELY AFFECTED OUR
SUPPLY OF FRESH FISH."

I don't know what the factors are, but will ask next time I get the chance... so this is SPECULATION: could it be that the fishermen can't be bothered to fish until they know they can safely export most of their catch to the EU? (I must add that the weather hasn't been too good the last couple of days, but was calm for quite a while before that.) - So, that bit is not a FACT (yet).
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