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roy munster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

Started with a personal insult so I wont bother engaging with you
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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SospanMawr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I am afraid here Sospan that you are guilty as others have been of making false statements. You categorically stated that Airbus were taking their investment out of the UK.; That is clearly untrue at this point in time. None of us know what the final deal will be and Airbus' executives, like many others, are being very prudent in making statements which they hope will guide negotiations. You, however, are misusing statements to support your argument.

As for costs do you really think that I need an Independent company whose cost I am sure will be an added burden to us EU taxpayers to tell me that a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who move HQ twice a year as a sop to the French government are not totally out of control. When was the last time this group were independently audited. Indeed you have been quite vociferous with regard to Farage who I believe costs EU taxpayers about £180k per annum. What about all the other MEP's from 28 different countries with their snouts in the trough? You clearly think that us UK taxpayers are getting good value for money do you?
LOLLOLLOL that's rich, you've gone from defending Leave for making " flagrant overstating of financial issues" (rich way to put it) to having a go at me for the same!
 
Then you say the main problem you had was cost to the taxpayer then when I prove it only costs £283 per taxpayer you turn around and say that actually, the EU are out of control and need auditing LOL
Do I think the EU is perfect? Not by a long shot. Never have said.
 
You ask if I think we're having good value? £283 per taxpayer to get around £658m in funding specifically in Wales in 2014? [Source: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/heres-how-much-money-wales-11527889]
£283 per person to get funding for (amongst others) Llanelly House, Swansea Uni Bay Campus, Cardiff University brain damage research centre, Jobs Growth Wales, Marine Energy, 94,000 apprenticeships. All in Wales. Yeah I do. [Source: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/19-things-european-funding-done-10939396]
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

Started with a personal insult so I wont bother engaging with you
I don't see a personal insult at all. But if you don't want to provide a source for your claim or engage in a debate when I've presented facts and asked for some facts back, then that's fine, I understand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

Started with a personal insult so I wont bother engaging with you
I don't see a personal insult at all. But if you don't want to provide a source for your claim or engage in a debate when I've presented facts and asked for some facts back, then that's fine, I understand.

Read your first sentence, its an insult. You choose to call anyone with different opinions as just rambling, good for you. Its disrespectful. All that does is reduce the debate from a 2 way conversation to cheap insults where you simply regurgitate your same talking points that fit your agenda and you just ignore insult and demean any other opinions or facts. You may as well get a room with yourself


Edited by roy munster - 22 June 2018 at 2:43pm
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

Started with a personal insult so I wont bother engaging with you
I don't see a personal insult at all. But if you don't want to provide a source for your claim or engage in a debate when I've presented facts and asked for some facts back, then that's fine, I understand.

Read your first sentence, its an insult. You choose to call anyone with different opinions as just rambling, good for you. Its disrespectful. All that does is reduce the debate from a 2 way conversation to cheap insults where you simply regurgitate your same talking points that fit your agenda and you just ignore insult and demean any other opinions or facts. You may as well get a room with yourself
Asking someone for a source of a stated fact is an insult?
Or do you call the bit where I said your post was a ramble a personal insult? In fact I was commenting on your post, not you personally at all.
I have never demeaned your opinion, merely debated it, and if you presented any facts I wouldn't demean those either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

First can I get a direct, reliable source for the £10bn you've quoted there please? Then I'm going to try and work out that ramble.
 
Right hang on. What you've said is
- Things that happened 20 years ago, in one hospital, need to be discussed on a Brexit thread.
- You've agreed that the £350m that was plastered very publically and broadly on the side of the bus was at the very least factually incorrect and the actual figure is (apparently) £200m that we "could" spend on the NHS.
- Then you say the NHS doesn't deserve any money because it has too much middle management? You say over population is the NHS' fault? Over population where, in the UK or hospitals? Do you know 12.5% of NHS workers are foreign nationals, and over 1500 visa applications for foreign doctors were turned down at the start of this year? [Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-foreign-doctors-how-many-reliant-immigration-theresa-may-brexit-explained-visa-a8383306.html ]
 
What you haven't said even though I asked
- Whether you think it's appropriate for Leave to have lied about something so important with no regard for the voter
- What you think of Farage, Rees-Mogg etc investing in the EU not the UK
- What you think of the likes of Gove, Boris etc using Brexit as a political piggyback
- What you think of thousands of jobs and millions if not billions of pounds of investment moving out of the country in the form of Jaguar Land-Rover and Airbus

Started with a personal insult so I wont bother engaging with you
I don't see a personal insult at all. But if you don't want to provide a source for your claim or engage in a debate when I've presented facts and asked for some facts back, then that's fine, I understand.

Read your first sentence, its an insult. You choose to call anyone with different opinions as just rambling, good for you. Its disrespectful. All that does is reduce the debate from a 2 way conversation to cheap insults where you simply regurgitate your same talking points that fit your agenda and you just ignore insult and demean any other opinions or facts. You may as well get a room with yourself
Asking someone for a source of a stated fact is an insult?
Or do you call the bit where I said your post was a ramble a personal insult? In fact I was commenting on your post, not you personally at all.
I have never demeaned your opinion, merely debated it, and if you presented any facts I wouldn't demean those either.

stop rambling
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 3:19pm
The recent story was the government pledging to increase spending on the NHS (I think to bring it in line with inflation) but then they said this would come from increased taxes, which confused me. Is that just opportunism from a strong remainer in Hammond or a hint Brexit won't save money or that money saved won't go to the NHS? Are we making too much of Boris' bus when it was simply a gimmick?

The news from Airbus was worrying but again, is that just companies playing hardball and seeing an opportunity to manipulate Brexit for their own gain?

Too many questions and few answers - which basically sums up how I feel about Brexit so, like this thread, I am mainly just sitting back and watching with an increasing sense of detachment from the country I identify with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

The recent story was the government pledging to increase spending on the NHS (I think to bring it in line with inflation) but then they said this would come from increased taxes, which confused me. Is that just opportunism from a strong remainer in Hammond or a hint Brexit won't save money or that money saved won't go to the NHS? Are we making too much of Boris' bus when it was simply a gimmick?

The news from Airbus was worrying but again, is that just companies playing hardball and seeing an opportunity to manipulate Brexit for their own gain?

Too many questions and few answers - which basically sums up how I feel about Brexit so, like this thread, I am mainly just sitting back and watching with an increasing sense of detachment from the country I identify with.

Think it's a bit of both some money from brexit propped up by tax increase. Nobody can say if brexit will be good or bad unless we can travel through to alternate dimensions. What will be will be, the increase of ukip candidates showed how much people aren't happy with the way things were working the only way to have a chance of improving things is through change. Company's leaving isn't any different to company's that left previous to brexit surely? Tata was saved by brexit for the time being. Unemployment down but zero hour contracts to aid with those number and are only good for youngsters living at home. I'm employed by the NHS but people who think it's all public sector are naive of what is actually going on. Agency nurses are becoming more common and you can blame people leaving the NHS to do the same job with £15-20 per hour increase. Far too many managers managing managers in the NHS it's a shambles and if they brought in some successful business managers to fix that I'm sure we'd see a fair some of money freed up to be used on what it needs to be spent on. The list is almost endless really so even though west wales is basically the poorest place in Europe we can still smile and get on with it thinking about next season
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 4:55pm
I worry about Wales but then the majority were in favour of Leave, so there you go. Clearly many people didn't think (or know?) the EU was doing anything for them and decided as such.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I worry about Wales but then the majority were in favour of Leave, so there you go. Clearly many people didn't think (or know?) the EU was doing anything for them and decided as such.

Way too many politicans and too many layers of burocracy. When you add the welsh irish scottish and regional assemblies to westminster and europe, the number of politicians have mutiplied threefold in the past few decades. Frightening. How do we find these extra wages and expenses?? Especially when the EU is in the pockets of the massive tax dodging corporations who pay less as a percentage of profit than the man on the street...so they have to go after the individuals with stealth taxes, petty red tape, tariffs and VAT rises. The EU has already motioned a EU wide VAT rise over 20%. Their accounts havent been signed off properly for years due to the amount of missing money too
 
The fact its 1 massively powerful nation in effect controlling the entire fate of the other 27 /28 is absurd. We had romanian collapses, iceland, italy went bust and had their government hand picked and replaced? what a shocker that was...Poor old bankrupt greece were still spending billions on german weapons up the days before total bankruptcy. The entire framework is doomed to fail. How can 1 nation be in charge of the other 27 economies amount to 500 million people? All ancient nations 1000s of years old,  all totally different in terms of wealth, resources, skills, geopgraphy, geology, historically, culturally etc Its a joke. Its the type of thing that looks good on the outside with every politian agreeing as it suits their own interests. But beneath the surface you have nations crashing to bankruptcy. Totally unable to change their fate with no power no autonomy no self-governance no flexibility.. I think the best choice of all was keeping the pound, thats what saved us from the burocratic nightmare. It allowed our economy to remain flexible independent adaptable to the ever changing fickle economic fortunes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 8:01pm
Well this is a nice Scarlets  supporters united bonding thread! I am starting a Who is supporting England to win the World Cup thread tomorrow as after all we are all British aren't we?? Or are we?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Well this is a nice Scarlets  supporters united bonding thread! I am starting a Who is supporting England to win the World Cup thread tomorrow as after all we are all British aren't we?? Or are weu?Wink
that'll cause more riots than Brexit lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 10:38pm
Airbus are estimated to pay £1.7bn in tax and directly fund over 100,000 jobs. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact
Still waiting for any facts that I’ve asked for from the Leave side
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Well this is a nice Scarlets  supporters united bonding thread! I am starting a Who is supporting England to win the World Cup thread tomorrow as after all we are all British aren't we?? Or are we?Wink


I'm up for a who shCensoredt in the lift thread personally. Not one for closing down debates but gentlefolk, if you want to fall out with people, Brexit is a good subject to do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turkpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 12:59am
This is already going on at the Welsh football forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 6:45am
its hard to believe a compromise cant be found between the EU and UK over the customs union or single market , no deal would be mindless on both sides and would harm both sides too
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