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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:05am
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Airbus are estimated to pay £1.7bn in tax and directly fund over 100,000 jobs. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact
Still waiting for any facts that I’ve asked for from the Leave side

There you go again quoting figures and making false assumptions about Airbus. 
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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:19am
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I am afraid here Sospan that you are guilty as others have been of making false statements. You categorically stated that Airbus were taking their investment out of the UK.; That is clearly untrue at this point in time. None of us know what the final deal will be and Airbus' executives, like many others, are being very prudent in making statements which they hope will guide negotiations. You, however, are misusing statements to support your argument.

As for costs do you really think that I need an Independent company whose cost I am sure will be an added burden to us EU taxpayers to tell me that a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who move HQ twice a year as a sop to the French government are not totally out of control. When was the last time this group were independently audited. Indeed you have been quite vociferous with regard to Farage who I believe costs EU taxpayers about £180k per annum. What about all the other MEP's from 28 different countries with their snouts in the trough? You clearly think that us UK taxpayers are getting good value for money do you?
LOLLOLLOL that's rich, you've gone from defending Leave for making " flagrant overstating of financial issues" (rich way to put it) to having a go at me for the same!
 
Then you say the main problem you had was cost to the taxpayer then when I prove it only costs £283 per taxpayer you turn around and say that actually, the EU are out of control and need auditing LOL
Do I think the EU is perfect? Not by a long shot. Never have said.
 
You ask if I think we're having good value? £283 per taxpayer to get around £658m in funding specifically in Wales in 2014? [Source: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/heres-how-much-money-wales-11527889]
£283 per person to get funding for (amongst others) Llanelly House, Swansea Uni Bay Campus, Cardiff University brain damage research centre, Jobs Growth Wales, Marine Energy, 94,000 apprenticeships. All in Wales. Yeah I do. [Source: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/19-things-european-funding-done-10939396]
 
 
 

You really should learn to quote people accurately. I did not try to defend the leave campaigners for overstating the net savings of Brexit, indeed I did the exact opposite. I understand Sospan that facts really can get in the way of a good argument but really......... You confirm that you feel we get good value for the 8.6 billion net contribution - thats your prerogative. Other contributors on here like Roy & myself do not. I voted leave because I firmly believe that we can make a far better fist of our economy when we strip away the costly layers of beaurocracy and regulation. I also believe we should set our own laws and make our own decisions. Finally I also believe we should control our own borders.

Now I, unlike you, cannot predict what the final deal will look like. What I can say is that the economic aramageddon predicted by many remainers has not happened. Indeed the FTSE has rallied to near record levels, we have record numbers of people in employment and foreign inward investment is running at/around all time highs. 
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Rob o'r Bont View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 10:02am
Can anyone explain what the benefits of leaving the EU are?  Every respectable assessment has shown that its bad economically for the UK in the short term (next 5 years or so), and the long term predictions are mixed, some saying it will be good some saying it will be bad, but nobody really knows.

So what's the point of leaving if things are going to be worse for us.
That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.
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SospanMawr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 11:08am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Airbus are estimated to pay £1.7bn in tax and directly fund over 100,000 jobs. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact
Still waiting for any facts that I’ve asked for from the Leave side


There you go again quoting figures and making false assumptions about Airbus. 
Sorry for quoting facts from a reliable source.
I know it makes you uncomfortable.
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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Airbus are estimated to pay £1.7bn in tax and directly fund over 100,000 jobs. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/airbus-plans-uk-cuts-amid-fears-of-hard-brexit-impact
Still waiting for any facts that I’ve asked for from the Leave side


There you go again quoting figures and making false assumptions about Airbus. 
Sorry for quoting facts from a reliable source.
I know it makes you uncomfortable.

You really are priceless - clearly I have no doubt as to the accuracy of the figures quoted; its the insinuation that those jobs and tax revenues will be lost which is very misleading as you well know. All of us will have ample time post Brexit to revisit our thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 3:25pm
OK clearly sparking off clashes. GPR + Roy what do you see as the good about Brexit and the benefits it may bring to the UK? 

I think we as a country are suffering from this divide and lack of clarity. In someways I wish there had been a better Leave PR post-referendum; to actually give me confidence it wouldn't be a total [beep]up and even hope that certain things would improve. As it is, we're stuck in this back and forth arguing over quoted numbers, semantics (I never even knew what "hard" and "soft" Brexit meant!), and political power struggles with a PM and cabinet I perceive to be weak and struggling to keep their own party in order with limited political opposition. There must be something bigger at the heart of this divide than this - even as basic as being pro or anti Europe or immigration or whatever, the latter Brexit seemingly will have negligible impact on anyway. Maybe the idea behind Brexit is to make Britain a less attractive country to live in it to drive away current EU immigrants and put off future ones then it may well turn out to be quite successful (that's a joke BTW, I realise now we "remoaners" used this brush way too heavily before).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 3:39pm
Oh [beep]ing hell, and I just read that Vinnie Paul has died. What a poo day. Unhappy Pantera re-defined metal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 4:50pm
Brexit's greatest support comes from the poorest areas. This is what you'd expect as the main purpose of the EU is to facilitate "the free movement of Capital and Labour" for those states deemed suitable to join. 
As the poorer members of society are more likely to be in debt rather than be over-endowed with surplus capital that is crying out to be invested for profit. 
On the other hand the free movement of Labour  is far more likely to effect peoples' lives  as it could mean being replaced by someone desperate for a wage under any circumstance and who will work for less and under worse conditions.
 Even if a worker doesn't lose his/her job, the overall effect  is to keep down wages and worsen conditions. So the large influx of workers from the likes of Poland where absolute pay is a lot lower and doesn't exactly endear the EU to those whose only source of income is selling their labour on the open market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Can anyone explain what the benefits of leaving the EU are?  Every respectable assessment has shown that its bad economically for the UK in the short term (next 5 years or so), and the long term predictions are mixed, some saying it will be good some saying it will be bad, but nobody really knows.

So what's the point of leaving if things are going to be worse for us.

We have already answered this but here goes again. To date the economy has overall grown stronger since brexit ...Youve only got to look at the massive gains in the ftse 100 250 and 350....all of which have grown in value by an enormous 27+%
The steel industry has boomed, the unemployment market has boomed, wages have grown WAY WAY beyond predictions. All the predictions of massive economic collapse were NOT just for after we officially leave but were predicted the day we voted to leave. ALL of these predictions were from massive corporations and the bank of england and other power players like george osbournes. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WERE OBSCENELY WRONG. predictions were literally billions out

5. Brexit will destroy Western civilization as we know it 

What was said: European Council President Donald Tusk said a vote to leave the EU would boost anti-European forces. “As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilization in its entirety,” he told the German newspaper Bild. 

Longer term the brexit will help SME's as the EU is a mouthpiece for massive corporations. The EU has overseen the destruction of the sme's the high street, the rise in VAT , the lowering of corporation taxes, the increase of tax loopholes for corporations. With google amazon etc paying miniscule taxes, holding 100s of billions in european accounts. 
The endless petty red tape for sme's kills them off, yet a blind eye is turned to massive worldwide corporate corruption such as 20 million VW cars fiddling their emmissions, or massive retailers across europe selling horse burgers for a decade. NO ONE WENT TO JAIL
These are just some examples. The EU is a mirage , its a myth of choice and wealth distribution.
Its a bunch of unelected people 3000 miles away dictating every tiny facet of our lives and we the people are paying for it and not the massive corporations. It enslaves us to corporate behemoths for decades maybe centuries to come

The EU commission is 100% undemocratic, it is appointed by other powerful people not the electorate. We cannot get rid of these people. In the end we see people like nellie kroes
a dreadful human being....who was commissioner for competition for the EU for 11 years, she allowed the totally unregulated UBER to take over the european taxi market and when they were allowed into the Uk she then left the EU to join the Uber board
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36212446

In office, Ms Kroes criticised attempts to ban Uber in some European countries.

In 2014, she said he was "outraged" by a decision in a Brussels court to stop its drivers working in the city.

"This decision is not about protecting or helping passengers - it's about protecting a taxi cartel," she wrote on her official European Commission blog.

Others appointed to the board include Roberto Daniño, the former prime minister of Peru, ex-US secretary of transportation Ray LaHood and Allan Fels. previously chairman of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission,

A spokesman for Uber told the BBC the board members were chosen because of their experience in public policy affecting the company and mix of nationalities.





Edited by roy munster - 23 June 2018 at 5:16pm
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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John View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Can anyone explain what the benefits of leaving the EU are?  Every respectable assessment has shown that its bad economically for the UK in the short term (next 5 years or so), and the long term predictions are mixed, some saying it will be good some saying it will be bad, but nobody really knows.

So what's the point of leaving if things are going to be worse for us.


The benefits of leaving the EU are that our own parliaments will be able to make our own laws. Upon which magnificent argument rests the glorious assumption that all laws emanating from Westminster are universally fantastic and that the AMs in the Senedd could stop squabbling (mostly with members of their own parties and leaving or being chucked out of said party) for long enough to pass any law at allOuch

And as we pass our own laws whilst trading with all other countries in the world, we can neglect the fact that they all have standards which our manufacturers will have to abide by. These other countries are of course absolutely desperate for our products and will be happy to whack in enormous orders on the first day we leave the EU, thus obviating the need for any redundancies at all. 

There is also the argument that the EU introduces over-bureaucratic legislation at every turn. As a sheep farmer, I am well aware of this and I am also well aware of the feeling of being made to feel like a criminal because some sheep have gone walk-about at a vital moment of random inspection or because I filled a form in wrongly. And try telling a sheep that it is critical that it keeps the two tags in its ears. I have and it doesn't listen. The problem is that the civil servants, fearing losing their jobs post Brexit, are busy devising even more complicated schemes and controls, so ever more inspections to inspect some aspect of the farm. All the time importing cheap tariff-free food from countries with lower environmental standards and food standards. Exporting environmental damage of food production is a big benefit of leaving the EU according to the great prophet Rees-Mogg

Come on everybody, it is bright new world we're entering here- a world where pesky human rights legislation can be done away with, where our exports rise exponentially, where we can forever more be British...... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:23pm
Funny how the poor farmers , sitting on their vast acreage have always been pleading poverty and blaming it all on the EU for decades, but when the vote came they voted the other way. From that moment onwards their demands and complaints about the EU are taken about as seriously as alan partridges views on agriculture
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:42pm
Why any Welsh person votes with the Home Counties is beyond me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by M.M. M.M. wrote:

Why any Welsh person votes with the Home Counties is beyond me.

They dont they vote with their own minds and conscience 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2018 at 9:06pm
Sorry, Roy. I don't see it like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2018 at 7:40am
Originally posted by M.M. M.M. wrote:

Sorry, Roy. I don't see it like that.
London voted remain, home counties voted brexit. The whole fixation over whether Wales voted in a similar pattern to the home counties doesnt seem relevant. If wales had voted remain would you have felt perturbed wales had followed the same pattern as the London city slickers? Everyone voted for different reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2018 at 7:55am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Can anyone explain what the benefits of leaving the EU are?  Every respectable assessment has shown that its bad economically for the UK in the short term (next 5 years or so), and the long term predictions are mixed, some saying it will be good some saying it will be bad, but nobody really knows.

So what's the point of leaving if things are going to be worse for us.

We have already answered this but here goes again. To date the economy has overall grown stronger since brexit ...Youve only got to look at the massive gains in the ftse 100 250 and 350....all of which have grown in value by an enormous 27+%
The steel industry has boomed, the unemployment market has boomed, wages have grown WAY WAY beyond predictions. All the predictions of massive economic collapse were NOT just for after we officially leave but were predicted the day we voted to leave. ALL of these predictions were from massive corporations and the bank of england and other power players like george osbournes. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WERE OBSCENELY WRONG. predictions were literally billions out.......
Roy, I could agree with you........... but then we would both be wrong. Smile

Don't forget that we haven't actually left the EU yet so the effect of any deal has not yet taken place.  We are still operating under the conditions of remain.   However, the governor of the Bank of England has just come out last month and said households are already about £900 worse off after the leave vote.  

But like I said above, all the respected predictions on both sides of the argument agree that the UK economy will be worse off for at east the next 5 years.  Beyond 5 years nobody really knows one way or the other. 

This is the headline figure I would like to get over - All respected studies predict that the UK economy will be worse off in at least the next 5 years beyond Brexit.  The notion that Brexit will bring prosperity to the UK is a false one.


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