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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'm not sure it's such bad thing to have had more beds/ventilators etc than may be needed. It may have come at a cost, but I'd back that positioning.

The only person I can't overrule, but don't work for either, in my business is the Compliance officer.

With 'leadership competence' being such a metric in this crisis, I wonder if one of the takeaways would be some role like that outside of Government.

A sort of ethics regulator that ensures the truth never gets distorted or buried by a leadership group.

One of the big things that Trump has tarnished the world with , is that you can pretty much say what the hell you want, with no basis in the truth, and you are not really held to account for it when it really matters.


I'm with you on that Wil, but, Boris and his boys are at it as well. They 'massaged' the figures to get to 100,000 tests a day, backed Cummings when he was patently in the wrong, for travelling to Barnard's Castle, and secondly, it is illegal to drive if you have any reason to believe that your eyesight isn't good enough. 

I also give you Boris' £350 million pound promise on the NHS, he knew what he put on the side of the bus was wrong. Fake news.

He also falsely played the Islamophobia card during Brexit when he stated that Turkey, a mainly Muslim country, was about to join the EU. Fake news.

Secondly Wil, is the rather worrying development with regard to the Civil Service, where it seems that we are now seeing political appointments being made. 

The Civil Service should be impartial, and advise the government of the day as to what should/shouldn't be done, and what can/can't be done.

If we move away from that, we are moving towards a situation where ethics/morals go out of the window, and governments will do what they like. 

Don't forget, the government seem to have the BBC in their sights as a result of their perceived bias in their reporting during the GE. Keunssberg by the way was forced to delete a tweet when the Tories falsely claimed that a Labour activist had punched a Tory worker. Fake news ! She also re tweeted Cummings' blog with no qualification/disclaimer, leading people to believe that she was in support of his tweets.  

Finally, for now, the judiciary are also on the government's radar for deeming to find against Boris when he wrongly prorogued parliament. Do we want to follow the US' example ? 
 
I think not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 7:46pm
are those arrows in all shops?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Anyone see the tory minister threaten the head of the armed forces that if they didn't get their house in order that they would get a visit from dominic cummings "and you won't like that"? it was on GMB this morning,on another note the covid crisis must be over as they've removed the one way arrows in the aisles in tesco.
After feedback to the manager at a store in Suffolk, they were quickly reinstated. Good example of engagement with your customers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 5:49pm
As for the virus the figures are strange .....3 weeks ago the weekly death toll fell by 375 in a weekly average from 1400 to 1025 deaths in a week...The next week it fell 198 then next week it rose by 15. 

But the past week it fell again by just over 200 down to 7 day total of 611 deaths. At least over these 4 weeks it has fallen from 1400 deaths a week to 611. That's from 200 deaths per day to 86. The infections seem to be falling significantly too.


Edited by roy munster - 08 July 2020 at 5:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'm not sure it's such bad thing to have had more beds/ventilators etc than may be needed. It may have come at a cost, but I'd back that positioning.

The only person I can't overrule, but don't work for either, in my business is the Compliance officer.

With 'leadership competence' being such a metric in this crisis, I wonder if one of the takeaways would be some role like that outside of Government.

A sort of ethics regulator that ensures the truth never gets distorted or buried by a leadership group.

One of the big things that Trump has tarnished the world with , is that you can pretty much say what the hell you want, with no basis in the truth, and you are not really held to account for it when it really matters.

Theres another problem even worse than the half truths of trump, though trump is an easy target most politicians tell half truths or totally contradict themselves. virtue signalling has also become a serious issue as is the closing down of free speech and free debate particularly in universities. The amount of topics people are now too scared to even discuss is growing by the day. That is a serious problem in a so called open democratic society.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'm not sure it's such bad thing to have had more beds/ventilators etc than may be needed. It may have come at a cost, but I'd back that positioning.

The only person I can't overrule, but don't work for either, in my business is the Compliance officer.

With 'leadership competence' being such a metric in this crisis, I wonder if one of the takeaways would be some role like that outside of Government.

A sort of ethics regulator that ensures the truth never gets distorted or buried by a leadership group.

One of the big things that Trump has tarnished the world with , is that you can pretty much say what the hell you want, with no basis in the truth, and you are not really held to account for it when it really matters.

Yes if we used them? But we didnt even use any of these extra beds for the  sick pensioners , we just sent them back to care homes? In fact we barely used any of these beds for anyone? I think the figure was only 35 patients seen at these £166 million field hospitals> Why not use them to quarantine those with covid? but do they have ventillators  at all the field hospitals? 

I notice theres 1 testing centre in llanelli I dont think Ive ever seen anyone going in there , nor cars parked there when Ive passed? thank goodness the online testing works 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 5:12pm
I'm not sure it's such bad thing to have had more beds/ventilators etc than may be needed. It may have come at a cost, but I'd back that positioning.

The only person I can't overrule, but don't work for either, in my business is the Compliance officer.

With 'leadership competence' being such a metric in this crisis, I wonder if one of the takeaways would be some role like that outside of Government.

A sort of ethics regulator that ensures the truth never gets distorted or buried by a leadership group.

One of the big things that Trump has tarnished the world with , is that you can pretty much say what the hell you want, with no basis in the truth, and you are not really held to account for it when it really matters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Cheers; interesting times ahead.  I haven't started using a mask yet but feel I will need to soon as it becomes clearer that this is everyones Civic duty to do so.. 

And ah yes 'whack-a-mole'.  That well known metaphor that depicts a repetitious and futile task as opposed to what we actualy need - a reliable solution that controls the threat.  Boris is so thick he couldn't even see the irony in his statement - or could he??

Is he any thicker than vaughan gethin? the welsh testing is half that of englands per head , gething abandoned his own strategy and 5000 a day target and piggy backed on the english testing system. If we hadnt been able to do that wed have been lucky to get 1500 tests a day compared to the uk capacity of nearly 300,000 what a disgrace. 

This is around the time he was swearing on camera when ministers dared asked him questions on this fiasco oh and breaking his own lockdown rules for a picnic, oh and and spending £166 million on field hospitals for 35 patients. But sending sick pensioners from welsh hopsitals to care homes to die and spread covid instead of sending them into quarantine in some of these empty field hospitals. The man should have resigned months ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 12:04pm
Cheers; interesting times ahead.  I haven't started using a mask yet but feel I will need to soon as it becomes clearer that this is everyones Civic duty to do so.. 

And ah yes 'whack-a-mole'.  That well known metaphor that depicts a repetitious and futile task as opposed to what we actualy need - a reliable solution that controls the threat.  Boris is so thick he couldn't even see the irony in his statement - or could he??

Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 08 July 2020 at 12:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think I understood about half of that Doc. Smile

So might we have to social distance like for ever?

It is in agreement with this recent work:


which observed that "IgG levels and neutralizing antibodies in a high proportion of individuals who recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection start to decrease within 2–3 months after infection. "

They contrast this to SARS: "Previous studies have shown that circulating antibodies against SARS-CoV or MERS-CoV last for at least 1 year. Sustained IgG levels were maintained for more than 2 years after SARS-CoV infection".

So yes, big implications for any antibody-mediated immunity hopes. But Covid19's new, there's issues with sensitivity of antibody detection I'm sure, and knowledge on why such a varied response must be improving. Big question is going to be whether people can get infected again and what sort of timeframe this can happen in, does it correlate with these antibody results and is there a difference symptomatic v asymptomatic?

Can't answer the vaccine design question sorry. Way I see it, despite the problems on daily life and economic function, social distancing* is going to be a very effective way of preventing spreading. There's growing interest in the spread of it via airborne particles (not just coughs, but long term lingering) so I'd expect masks to become more of a talking point soon. Vaccines even with a short lifespan will still be really useful as people can travel and go on holiday after taking them, or we insist on injecting people coming into the country with it, that sort of thing. Then if we can get regular testing sorted, particularly before any sort of gathering, it's not unimaginable that some sort of normality is achievable even if the vaccine we all want is not possible.

*And whack-a-mole, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 11:12am
I think I understood about half of that Doc. Smile

So might we have to social distance like for ever?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

A recent study in Spain has shown that less that 5% of infected people have developed antibodies after 3 months, which suggests that herd immunity is unlikely to work had we embraced it as a strategy.  Not sure what this means in terms of a vaccine - Does a vaccine rely on antibodies being created or does it work in some other way?

Direct quote from the discussion within the Lancet paper:

"Our study only detected IgG antibodies,
but the extent of the immunity they provide is unknown at
this moment. However, cellular immunity, which was not
evaluated here, might also play a role in protecting against
SARS-CoV-2 reinfection."

Cellular immunity is cytotoxic T cells and things like that so it must be possible. However, the authors are pretty strong in their final conclusion and go into politics (which I am not sure I agree with them doing). This work also concludes one in three infections are asymptomatic. 

"In conclusion, our study provides nationwide and
regional estimates of SARS-CoV-2 dissemination in
Spain, showing remarkable differences between higher
and lower prevalence areas. One in three infections
seems to be asymptomatic, while a substantial number
of symptomatic cases remained untested. Despite the
high impact of COVID-19 in Spain, prevalence estimates
remain low and are clearly insufficient to provide herd
immunity. This cannot be achieved without accepting the
collateral damage of many deaths in the susceptible
population and overburdening of health systems. In this
situation, social distance measures and efforts to identify
and isolate new cases and their contacts are imperative
for future epidemic control."

Full paper here, if anyone wants the pdf let me know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 10:55am
A recent study in Spain has shown that less that 5% of infected people have developed antibodies after 3 months, which suggests that herd immunity is unlikely to work had we embraced it as a strategy.  Not sure what this means in terms of a vaccine - Does a vaccine rely on antibodies being created or does it work in some other way?

Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 08 July 2020 at 10:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 10:21am
Worldwide the covid pandemic is all but over in peoples' minds. The truth is far different. We could be entering a period where even worse mortality rates are experienced as society tries to get back to some sort of normality. Until we have a working vaccine I see no end to the hardships. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 9:51am
Anyone see the tory minister threaten the head of the armed forces that if they didn't get their house in order that they would get a visit from dominic cummings "and you won't like that"? it was on GMB this morning,on another note the covid crisis must be over as they've removed the one way arrows in the aisles in tesco.
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2020 at 9:19am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Government advice in March was that people in care homes were unlikely to become infected by Covid19.  ONS figures show that 40% of all Covid19 deaths have been in care homes. There is a Grand Canyon sized blunder between those two sentences that probably needs a  public enquiry all of it's own.


“Earlier this year, and until 12 March, the government’s own official advice was, and I’m quoting from it, ‘it remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home will become infected.’”

Keir Starmer, 13 May 2020

“It wasn’t true that the advice said that.”

Boris Johnson, 13 May 2020 

-----------------------------------------------------

My thoughts are well-known but how are we allowing Johnson to lie so brazenly and without consequence in the House of Commons? Why doesn't the UK public care more??? I know he has silly hair and says funny phrases like "whack a mole" (describing his own government's response to localised outbreaks BTW) but FFS. 

If he was in court then he would be guilty of perjury. If he was on trial he would be found guilty. Yet, he is our highest elected politician and leader. You tell me people. This is not an isolated incident either, and in case we forget, he is lying about an error that has claimed 20,000 British lives (source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53280011).

But he makes us laugh with his funnies.

You tell me.


Edited by dr_martinov - 08 July 2020 at 9:25am
"We're thrown to the wolves in the minds of our enemies." - unknown philosopher.
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