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Ex players to sue authorities

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Fscarlet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

This could have major ramifications down the structure as there will be pressure on unions to ensure the wellbeing of amateur players. 
Indeed and huge insurance hikes to pay. More changes to the rules etc as well 🤔

That will drive a lot of clubs to ruin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Some of the figures from this report is truly scaring.

I'm sure post-NFL concussion some of us were saying it was only a matter of time before this happened in Union?

Thompson saying he can't remember any of the games he played in during the WC win and forgetting his wife's name... Scary. Plus interesting he said he didn't even like rugby that much. 

The article is talking about first professionals, how relevant to current times is this do people think?
Players now are bigger and stronger, collisions are harder, training is full-time and more intensive, and players' careers are generally longer - the effect is going to be far greater than in Thompson and Popham's day. Very concerning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

This could have major ramifications down the structure as there will be pressure on unions to ensure the wellbeing of amateur players. 
Indeed and huge insurance hikes to pay. More changes to the rules etc as well 🤔

Yep, though I am not sure what else can be done really laws wise. The impact of being taken out at a ruck is big at our level, God only knows what it's like at professional levels!! 


Popham's Doctor thinks his patient had 100,000 sub-concussions. I have no idea what that means but the size of that number must mean that it includes the whiplash and brain rotation from being cleared out.

Both Popham and Thompson played in France and the article says that they trained four times a week in France as opposed to three times in the UK. So one consequence of this may be a reduction in the number of contact training sessions allowed.

I think rugby has done alot over the past decade but the problem is that for every one player like these two afflicted by their early 40s, there will be many more afflicted before they are 60. And who will in due course join in the class action. John Barclays reflections on his concussion a couple of years ago are in a way comforting, particularly in the way that our club did not pressurise him at all  but I am not sure I would be comforted if I was a close family member. And how many clubs are still pressurising their players to return prematurely.

And to return to the sub-concussions issue, although our sport has made changes, if whiplash does lead to brain rotation and thus sub-concussions, we havent done anything about that. And as others have said, that has become more severe with increasing power of players.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 5:44pm
League versus Union could be a useful comparison here. Been professional for longer but lacks rucks and proper scrums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

League versus Union could be a useful comparison here. Been professional for longer but lacks rucks and proper scrums.
Also a much higher ball in play time I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

This could have major ramifications down the structure as there will be pressure on unions to ensure the wellbeing of amateur players. 
Indeed and huge insurance hikes to pay. More changes to the rules etc as well 🤔

Yep, though I am not sure what else can be done really laws wise. The impact of being taken out at a ruck is big at our level, God only knows what it's like at professional levels!! 


Popham's Doctor thinks his patient had 100,000 sub-concussions. I have no idea what that means but the size of that number must mean that it includes the whiplash and brain rotation from being cleared out.

Both Popham and Thompson played in France and the article says that they trained four times a week in France as opposed to three times in the UK. So one consequence of this may be a reduction in the number of contact training sessions allowed.

I think rugby has done alot over the past decade but the problem is that for every one player like these two afflicted by their early 40s, there will be many more afflicted before they are 60. And who will in due course join in the class action. John Barclays reflections on his concussion a couple of years ago are in a way comforting, particularly in the way that our club did not pressurise him at all  but I am not sure I would be comforted if I was a close family member. And how many clubs are still pressurising their players to return prematurely.

And to return to the sub-concussions issue, although our sport has made changes, if whiplash does lead to brain rotation and thus sub-concussions, we havent done anything about that. And as others have said, that has become more severe with increasing power of players.


how on earth could he put a number on that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 6:40pm
The exact same thing happened with the NFL and it changed the sport in terms of safety and the NFL having to put money into funds for players suffering injuries. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 8:41pm
This is tragic, it really is. These young men in their prime struck down by this horrible illness, to think its partly because of the knocks they took on a rugby field is disturbing. I really think this is the thin edge of the wedge and sadly many more players will soon follow with similar issues. This is a dreadful day for these people and their families and a bad day for rugby union. The authorities will in shock and will surely be looking at immediate changes to fundamentally improve the safety of the sport at all levels. What will parents think when they read these stories? it may put many off from sending their kids to play rugby.
 
Even before this sad news, the sport doesnt look right. These players are gargantuan, theyre all on the protein shakes and all sorts to bulk up rapidly to huge weights and they spend much of their time colliding into similarly huge blokes. There is less space than ever and it seems skill becomes less important than sheer brawn and survival. The game has to change fundamentally. 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

The exact same thing happened with the NFL and it changed the sport in terms of safety and the NFL having to put money into funds for players suffering injuries. 

Yeah as usualy it happened in america first then UK followed.
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 8:54pm
Where does this leave boxing where knocking someone out with a punch to the head is not only legal but a desired outcome for one competitor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2020 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Where does this leave boxing where knocking someone out with a punch to the head is not only legal but a desired outcome for one competitor.
and ufc where you can legally knee kick and elbow some one in the head. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 7:25am
hopefully one thing that might come out of this very sad situation is that players will have their skills coached rather than spending hours in a gym making them big enough to knock the **** out of the opposite number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 7:50am
It will be extremely challenging to allocate full responsibility to the governing body in cases like this.

For example there are 8 cases identified here, the legal representation of the governing bodies will be busy rubbishing that body and assessment and testing other players in the same way with a view to saying 'so what's the difference with these guys then....?'
Also what is a sub concussion, and how do you measure that?

One thing for sure, this will move very slowly through the process.

If I have one desirable outcome then it would be to shine a light on player welfare post career ( which is virtually non existent).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 8:01am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

It will be extremely challenging to allocate full responsibility to the governing body in cases like this.

For example there are 8 cases identified here, the legal representation of the governing bodies will be busy rubbishing that body and assessment and testing other players in the same way with a view to saying 'so what's the difference with these guys then....?'
Also what is a sub concussion, and how do you measure that?

One thing for sure, this will move very slowly through the process.

If I have one desirable outcome then it would be to shine a light on player welfare post career ( which is virtually non existent).

I can't remember where I read it but I first saw reference to this horrible news a week or so ago & I am sure the figure I saw was 70+ players looking to sue including Carl Hayman but the 7 players who have been headliners are the most affected & are showing the most severe symptoms suggesting EOD. 

In answer to your question Wil, Sub Concussion is a blow to the head which doesn't result in the each of the symptoms of a full concussion being met.

So a player may take a hit to the head which results in a temporary headache as opposed to one that lasts for a significant period of time, or they may not get the dizzy spells or balance issues more commonly linked to a full concussion. 

I know a little about it because I have had 3 occurrences of full concussion due to playing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 8:47am
The interview with Alix and his wife yesterday really brought the seriousness of this home for me. Advances in medical diagnosis of dementia and other neurological disorders have coincided with something many have known to be an elephant in the room. "Had a few too many knocks to the head" sounds terribly old-fashioned and we are talking brain damage here. Is a job worth this? What must players like Halfpenny, North and Patchell be thinking right now?

I'd like to know the prevalence of this, plus that comparison to League. Union has changed enormously, there are loads more tackles and rucks while player size had increased. Something has to be done. I know the risk is "league with scrums and lineouts" but so be it; we are talking the potential of widespread brain damage here. I don't think it will come to this but listening to Alix right now the players are proposing changes based on their experiences. Worth finding out more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

It will be extremely challenging to allocate full responsibility to the governing body in cases like this.

For example there are 8 cases identified here, the legal representation of the governing bodies will be busy rubbishing that body and assessment and testing other players in the same way with a view to saying 'so what's the difference with these guys then....?'
Also what is a sub concussion, and how do you measure that?

One thing for sure, this will move very slowly through the process.

If I have one desirable outcome then it would be to shine a light on player welfare post career ( which is virtually non existent).

We know, from NFL, that the actual bang on the head isn't the full story here. Their helmets protect them from that. What is key is the sudden movement of the head resulting in the movement or wobbling of the brain within the skull. This can be caused by sudden jarring incidents such a hard winding tackle in the midriff .So to get an estimation of 100,000 sub-concussions, the doctor must have included all the sudden jarring collisions that one sees in a game and which occur in training. 

And I agree about post career welfare for the players we have so enjoyed watching. There is no need for this to be expensive at least at first. A properly trained listener with knowledge of where to refer people based at each of the regions would be a really good start
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