Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RUGBY > GENERAL RUGBY
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Ex players to sue authorities

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Message
Fscarlet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 26 January 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 4846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2020 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Would introducing a maximum weight limit for players help ?
I don't know, thats the beauty of rugby isn't it, it was a sport for all sizes & abilities.
I agree entirely, perhaps those days are numbered ????
You may be right.... I don't know what the answer is but I am noticing even at the (very low) level I play at, there are more concussion instances.
Just a question - do you believe that it is more concussion incidents or that more incidents are being picked up as concussions where previously it would’ve been just a ‘slight knock to the head, nothing to worry about’?  Of course one would be a positive while the other would be a worry.

There’s a lot of merit when people say players are getting bigger, the concussions I’ve had have occurred in the last 3 years of 11 years playing. 

Previously it would be ah have a beer & you’ll be ok whereas now the coaches look out for it in players & refs are more observant. I’ve been asked to leave the field by a ref when I was concussed, my team mates said I was wobbling when trying to stand. 
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Online
Points: 13819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 8:18am
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The authorities can do all they want on monitoring players and their concussions, but unless they are proactive and not reactive they will not improve the "workplace".
Unless they do something to address the breakdown area where some of the clear outs are frankly life threatening for example when  a small player attempting to jackle is cleared out by a 20 stone muscle bound front row forward, then you are accepting that the worse can happen.  You could not get away with that type of workplace safety in any other business.
Too many "fresh" substitutes is another problem that is easily solved, no tactical subs, only genuine injury replacements, monitored by independent doctors.



Good point on substitues. Hows about banning lifting at lineouts too? These near 7 foot forwards are lifted by 2 similarly huge men, but the time theyre at their highest point their heads are over 10 feet off the floor with 8 opposition forwards trying to knock lumps out of you. How dangerous is that? There have been many lineout injuries and heavy falls... Why not simply compete for the ball the way it used to be?
The breakdown though is clearly the key concern and the fact there is so little space for players. Could we be radical and reduce playing numbers? 7 forwards? Just 2 flankers? Try also to squeeze every last yard on the width of pitches to create more space, paint the tramlines closer to the edge of the field. Whilst ensuring there is sufficient  safe area outside the tramlines for players to land.
A quicker more creative would love a bigger canvas.
Also the notorious back foot law needs serious looking at. Referees are way to soft on the endless encroachments. They must crack down hard on this. Or else we are destined to see backlines take endless hospital passes. Maybe even tighten this law. So the tacklers must be a yard or 2 yards behind the hindmost foot at a ruck. Hard to police but something must be done to create more space.


Edited by roy munster - 10 December 2020 at 8:25am
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
ladram View Drop Down
Rambler
Rambler
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 23984
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 8:43am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The authorities can do all they want on monitoring players and their concussions, but unless they are proactive and not reactive they will not improve the "workplace".
Unless they do something to address the breakdown area where some of the clear outs are frankly life threatening for example when  a small player attempting to jackle is cleared out by a 20 stone muscle bound front row forward, then you are accepting that the worse can happen.  You could not get away with that type of workplace safety in any other business.
Too many "fresh" substitutes is another problem that is easily solved, no tactical subs, only genuine injury replacements, monitored by independent doctors.



Good point on substitues. Hows about banning lifting at lineouts too? These near 7 foot forwards are lifted by 2 similarly huge men, but the time theyre at their highest point their heads are over 10 feet off the floor with 8 opposition forwards trying to knock lumps out of you. How dangerous is that? There have been many lineout injuries and heavy falls... Why not simply compete for the ball the way it used to be?
The breakdown though is clearly the key concern and the fact there is so little space for players. Could we be radical and reduce playing numbers? 7 forwards? Just 2 flankers? Try also to squeeze every last yard on the width of pitches to create more space, paint the tramlines closer to the edge of the field. Whilst ensuring there is sufficient  safe area outside the tramlines for players to land.
A quicker more creative would love a bigger canvas.
Also the notorious back foot law needs serious looking at. Referees are way to soft on the endless encroachments. They must crack down hard on this. Or else we are destined to see backlines take endless hospital passes. Maybe even tighten this law. So the tacklers must be a yard or 2 yards behind the hindmost foot at a ruck. Hard to police but something must be done to create more space.
i've got a video of the scarlets in the 70's where the line out looks like someone dropped a fiver and they are all trying to get a stud on it.LOLLOL
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Online
Points: 13819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 9:31am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The authorities can do all they want on monitoring players and their concussions, but unless they are proactive and not reactive they will not improve the "workplace".
Unless they do something to address the breakdown area where some of the clear outs are frankly life threatening for example when  a small player attempting to jackle is cleared out by a 20 stone muscle bound front row forward, then you are accepting that the worse can happen.  You could not get away with that type of workplace safety in any other business.
Too many "fresh" substitutes is another problem that is easily solved, no tactical subs, only genuine injury replacements, monitored by independent doctors.



Good point on substitues. Hows about banning lifting at lineouts too? These near 7 foot forwards are lifted by 2 similarly huge men, but the time theyre at their highest point their heads are over 10 feet off the floor with 8 opposition forwards trying to knock lumps out of you. How dangerous is that? There have been many lineout injuries and heavy falls... Why not simply compete for the ball the way it used to be?
The breakdown though is clearly the key concern and the fact there is so little space for players. Could we be radical and reduce playing numbers? 7 forwards? Just 2 flankers? Try also to squeeze every last yard on the width of pitches to create more space, paint the tramlines closer to the edge of the field. Whilst ensuring there is sufficient  safe area outside the tramlines for players to land.
A quicker more creative would love a bigger canvas.
Also the notorious back foot law needs serious looking at. Referees are way to soft on the endless encroachments. They must crack down hard on this. Or else we are destined to see backlines take endless hospital passes. Maybe even tighten this law. So the tacklers must be a yard or 2 yards behind the hindmost foot at a ruck. Hard to police but something must be done to create more space.
i've got a video of the scarlets in the 70's where the line out looks like someone dropped a fiver and they are all trying to get a stud on it.LOLLOL

yeah it was bizarre how close they all bunched up together too
A combination of the 2 perhaps, spread the lineout a meter apart no lifting then a free for all to find that five pound note lol
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
scarletabroad View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2011
Location: Hertfordshire
Status: Offline
Points: 3954
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletabroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 9:39am
I placed this post on the other thread which covers some of teh things raised here.
With regard to head gear we advise parents the only use of head gear is to reduce th epotential for cuts. Head gear does not reduce concussion?brain shake and this is proven in NFL


I am torn over this. On one hand we all chose to play the game, we all knew there would be injuries and we all knew about concussion admittedly perhaps for the majority not the long term effects but then that was probably the case all the way through from top to bottom.
I played a good standard and got concussion my sons play age grade and colts rugby and I coach age grade rugby and have had to deal with concussions. I can only comment on the English RFU whose rules I have to follow and the concussion protocols are very rigid and are enforced from what I have experienced and would say that they are being taken seriously and concussion is rightly being given the high risk status it deserves.
Coaching has had to improve especially tackling which does help and COVID rules in Level E which we currently play under ban any tackles above the waste (not Sextonesque standing up tackles) this again has reduced our concussion levels dramatically.
So whilst I would not wish dementia on anyone (My father is in the Bwythin in Llanelli with the disease he was a pro boxer in is his heyday and they knew the risk). Unless the nation’s RFU’s or the IRB hid information that could have prevented the condition and for example brought in the current code of practice for concussion in 10-15 years ago I do not see how they can be held to financial account.
A fund to help support ex-players of any level who are suffering through this would be welcomed of course but you would have to prove it. My father for example had a brain scan showing no scarring on the brain and it was concluded that his boxing was not a primary contributor to his condition but it was not definitive.
There are many things that can be brought in to rugby to reduce the risk, waist high tackling for example, the current HIA protocols, reducing the number of subs which in turn will reduce player sizes will help in both collisions and fatigue which leads to a more expansive game in the last 30 mins.
But the bottom line is we choose to play we all know the risks of playing contact sport especially today at some point you have to take responsibility for your actions and choices, as the ultimate choice is “do not play the game”.

Final word my thoughts to the families who will have to support the sufferers because they will face a torrid time. Jim Davidson made a joke on dementia many many years ago and never a truer line was said
“if I am going to have a serious illness I want Alzheimer’s as I will be the only one who doesn’t know I am ill”

Take care
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 11376
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 9:44am
There is a clear line to be drawn between making the game more entertaining i.e. less tactical kicking and safer. From the safety viewpoint the following should be considered :-

1. Tackling only allowed below waist
2. Ruck clearing out banned altogether
3. No lifting in lineouts
4. Scrums - need expert input to allow competitive scrums to be safer if possible. 

As for point one that is after all what we were all taught when we started. Point two will remove the sort of hits that Liam attempted last weekend. It removes a huge area which is open to the cheap shot. It also rewards players who get to the breakdown quickly & should encourage athletic body shapes instead of bulk. Point 3 again will encourage the athlete thereby producing leaner, lighter forwards in the back 5. Guys like Shingler & Blade will become quality 5/6's. 
Back to Top
RR1972 View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 27 April 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 13000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 10:53am
There is no easy answer,  Alzheimer’s is a terrible illness and my heart goes out to all those involved
 
But as others have pointed out far more eloquently than I  rugby is a contact sport and these risks are sadly part of the game
 
If a person plays rugby then they know there is a chance they will get hurt same with boxing,ufc or any other contact sport
 
Everything that can be done to reduce injuries must be done but the game cannot ever be safe
 
Let's not forget the vast number of people with Alzheimer’s will likely as not never have played rugby
Back to Top
dr_martinov View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 06 August 2005
Location: Swansea
Status: Offline
Points: 12039
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 1:51pm
I think we should find out more about what specifically is causing these serious cases before we decide law changes and it does risk overlapping with discussions on whether the game is getting boring. Not to say they're mutually exclusive from each other. Some of the changes mentioned above really do move closer to League, which is always the risk for Union. As people say, in a collision sport some things will be inevitable. I only have three players to go on (Thompson, Popham and Lipman) but all are forwards so is that telling us something? Kay and Moody have also spoken out - again, forwards. I don't want to jump to conclusions as we know of many backs with concussion issues as well (Halfpenny, Patchell, North spring to mind) but I do think we need to know what is causing these concussions, mini-concussions leading to this form of brain damage.

I also found this to be an interesting quick read. 


Comparing 1987 to 2019, number of tackles per team has doubled, number of rucks has over trebled. Lineouts has halved, scrums have decreased 2.4-fold.

Offloads and turnovers down by half.

Combined with increase in player size and other rule changes/techniques, of course.


Edited by dr_martinov - 10 December 2020 at 1:56pm
Back to Top
Sosban89 View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 18 October 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 1733
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 2:52pm
I get the arguement about players choosing to play. But remember this sport is relatively newly professional, and with that change, so do the expectations of the employers to provide a relatively safe working environment. 
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Online
Points: 13819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2020 at 3:02pm
Lets also fight for all nations being treated equal, as opposed to some teams getting preferential treatment, cough the all blacks cough cough. Can you believe no one got carded banned or fined for the 2005 spear tackle on BOD? andrew hore clothed lined brad davies in a test match in cardiff and sent him to emergency ward...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTDdrcAg8Y ;  That Keith murdoch character at stradey in 72 was sent in to do some damage...The AB's are taught about coming to Cardiff and wales generally to silence the crowd early on and victory is theirs. Then often do this with sublime rugby but they have also resorted to the dark arts early on, lay a marker down, do a hatchet job then they stay cleaner the rest of the game. 

Edited by roy munster - 10 December 2020 at 3:03pm
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
Gate12 View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 10 November 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 14102
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2020 at 9:03am
Not sure I'd agree with some of the arguments around people playing the sport knowing its a contact game and they'll get injuries, yes you'd expect a few stitches, broken bones, torn ligaments and the subsequent aches and pains in later life but I doubt there's many people playing senior rugby (professional or amateur) who realistically go into the game thinking it may result in early onset dementia or other brain injuries.

Whether there's been any negligence by governing bodies is a different thing though depending on the knowledge and scientific data they had/have over the past 20/30 years.

Back to Top
Wil Chips View Drop Down
Rambler
Rambler
Avatar

Joined: 23 August 2009
Location: Africa
Status: Online
Points: 44740
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2020 at 10:59am
That last comment is the nucleus of how this will go.

Were the authorities in receipt of clear and unambiguous data, ideally an evaluation funded by a governing body, that this was a possible or even likely outcome. If that was the case then it will sway the process toward the ex players.
Back to Top
RR1972 View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 27 April 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 13000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2020 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Not sure I'd agree with some of the arguments around people playing the sport knowing its a contact game and they'll get injuries, yes you'd expect a few stitches, broken bones, torn ligaments and the subsequent aches and pains in later life but I doubt there's many people playing senior rugby (professional or amateur) who realistically go into the game thinking it may result in early onset dementia or other brain injuries.

Whether there's been any negligence by governing bodies is a different thing though depending on the knowledge and scientific data they had/have over the past 20/30 years.

 
Your post made me think (which is a rarity!)
 
TBH  Your spot on, I never thought about getting dementia from rugby, I don't think anyone of my age (late40s) would have when we started to play
 
 
 
I also boxed and I tended to ignore the dangers there to and I dare say there maybe a price to pay further down the line for all of this.
 
When you think of what you put your body through in your younger days , it makes you wince and that was just at a very low level in all honesty I tend not to dwell on it or indeed anything in the past, what's done is done and all that.
 
But this has made me think about things
 
Getting knocked out or "sparked" was often seen as a bit of a laugh and just par for the course, what's the expression toxic masculinity or something?
 
However thinking on it Pro rugby is so different now to the old days, there is less thuggery and less chance of getting ko'd by a punch or getting stamped on . However the collisions are off the scale so is the sheer size and power of the players especially at test level.
 
I'm hoping this is a watershed moment and that something can be done to help player safety.
 
I genuinely don't think any union would hold back information and reports that would cause physical  harm to it's  players
 
 


Edited by RR1972 - 11 December 2020 at 12:32pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.