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lofty evans View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2011 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

The various UN peacekeeping mission around the world have been farcical at times Lofty, and without a clear mandate and strong leadership they were always destined to fail. You have to look sometimes at the countries involved and question whether they are kitted out for the job. Silly example perhaps, I was in Bosnia in 96 and there was a Malaysian Battalion there. In the deep of winter it was minus 20 and these guys has never left their country before. they were in such poor condition it was unbelievable, and wouldn't have been able to take any action if needed. Admittedly, this was a NATO mission, but it just goes to show how easy it is to end up with the wrong people sometimes. The Dutch clearly weren't up for it and, in hindsight, shouldn't perhaps have been put in that position at the time. Combat ready troops there weren't.



This peace keeping banner they go in with, should mean it. I take on board they can send in the wrong sort of soldier/ country and being a band of Nations can be a bit of a lottery. Agree the country is a bit nuts, the photos ive seen of that time from my brother in law who was also out there, convey those images of bloody hell.

I just get embarrassed that the best of human kindness, courage and convictions, from the powers that be, to the men on the ground, left innocent civilians and children be shot at and mown down, in my lifetime.

Hitlers mob were before my time and that was just appalling, to witness something that mirrors another time, in an age where Human beings were supposed to have grown up, is just unthinkable.

In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2011 at 12:14pm
The trouble with the UN, and indeed Srebrinica, Lofty was that the man on the ground who saw the wrongs had such an extended chain of command to follow before acting that it was inevitable that problems would occur. Political sensitivities took precedence over human rights, as you say.
 
Soldier A reported to a platoon commander, who reported to a company commander, who reported to Battalion Headquarters, who reported to the UN headquarters on the ground, who then reported to the UN HQ in New York, who then had a chat about it for a couple of hours, went for lunch, came back, considered it further and then, perhaps, made a decision. By then it was too late. 
 
The system failed then and, it appears, the UN appear to be doing little better in parts of Africa to this day. But, if genocide in Europe in the later part of the 20th century wasn't going to change things, what hope for Africa?
 
#George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2011 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

The trouble with the UN, and indeed Srebrinica, Lofty was that the man on the ground who saw the wrongs had such an extended chain of command to follow before acting that it was inevitable that problems would occur. Political sensitivities took precedence over human rights, as you say.
 

Soldier A reported to a platoon commander, who reported to a company commander, who reported to Battalion Headquarters, who reported to the UN headquarters on the ground, who then reported to the UN HQ in New York, who then had a chat about it for a couple of hours, went for lunch, came back, considered it further and then, perhaps, made a decision. By then it was too late. 

 

The system failed then and, it appears, the UN appear to be doing little better in parts of Africa to this day. But, if genocide in Europe in the later part of the 20th century wasn't going to change things, what hope for Africa?

 




Good points, but what hope for everyone if decent people cannot see the right thing.

In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 10:49am
Wonder if this will at least start the process of acountability for Srebrenica.

Edited by Wil Chips - 05 July 2011 at 10:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Wonder if this will at least start the process of acountability for Srebrenica.
 
 
Probably, but yet again highlights the sheer sadness of it all.
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 3:41pm
Maybe Lofty, but to me it highlights the gutless way in which the Dutch forces acted. They should hang their heads in shame.
#George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omri jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 4:26pm
The killing of any civilians is a war crime, but the winners get away with it. No one stood trial for the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki which were then  largely occupied by women, children and the old. No one was punished for the carpet bombing of N.Vietnam started on the pretext that North Vietnamese torpedo boats had attacked the U.S. fleet (later admitted to be a lie) or the use of  napalm, agent orange and cluster bombs containing thousands of plastic needles which could not be detected by X-ray. What makes so many Serbs support  Mladic is the fact that only one side, the side supported by the USA, is usually brought to justice.  Mladic was only handed over when the Serb government was was told that their application to join the EU would be rejected unless he was extradited. As one Serb put it "this is the only example in history of rats jumping on to a sinking ship"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 5:15pm
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were carried out "for the greater good", the reasoning being that the death of those concerned saved the lives of millions of others. It was a World War in which Japan chose to involve itself, so the situation was different. All parties were as guilty as the other.
 
Vietnam was a war of ideologies, which took place on a continent before human rights became vogue, and at a time when atrocities were sadly common place. Again, both sides were to blame.
 
What makes the Mladic story so abhorrent, is that he carried out ethnic cleansing on a continent still shocked and embarassed from the atrocitieis of the 1930/40's, and did so under the gaze of the very organisation which existed to protect the innocent. The reasoning for his trial in no way deflects from the acts he perpetrated, and the fact that the rationale was for doing so was a war some 800 years before. 
#George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omri jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 8:00pm
Human rights is something the west emphasizes only when it's about to attack some poorly equipped nation who stands up to it. NATO. is supposed to be attacking Lybia for "humanitarian" reasons. They have flown over 2000 missions in their advanced aircraft and attack helicopters and used their most powerfull non -nuclear weapons after destroying the Libyan air defences. They have killed one of Gadaffi's son and two grandchildren in an attempt to asassinate Gadaffi. Money is no object to destroy their infrastructure but ask for a genuine show of humanity and there is little to be seen. A few weeks into the start of  the war 72 refugees from the fighting left Libya but ran out of fuel. They were passed by numerous NATO warships and helicopters all of which ignored their distress calls. By the time they finally made land only 64 had not died from lack of water and food. The West is totally hypocritical in its approach to human rights and war crimes and it is only able to maintain its stance with the aid of a compliant media which repeats ad nauseum some stories and conveniently brushes others under the carpet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maldwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by omri jones omri jones wrote:

Human rights is something the west emphasizes only when it's about to attack some poorly equipped nation who stands up to it. NATO. is supposed to be attacking Lybia for "humanitarian" reasons. They have flown over 2000 missions in their advanced aircraft and attack helicopters and used their most powerfull non -nuclear weapons after destroying the Libyan air defences. They have killed one of Gadaffi's son and two grandchildren in an attempt to asassinate Gadaffi. Money is no object to destroy their infrastructure but ask for a genuine show of humanity and there is little to be seen. A few weeks into the start of  the war 72 refugees from the fighting left Libya but ran out of fuel. They were passed by numerous NATO warships and helicopters all of which ignored their distress calls. By the time they finally made land only 64 had not died from lack of water and food. The West is totally hypocritical in its approach to human rights and war crimes and it is only able to maintain its stance with the aid of a compliant media which repeats ad nauseum some stories and conveniently brushes others under the carpet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omri jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2011 at 10:58pm
Human rights is something the west emphasizes only when it's about to attack some poorly equipped nation who stands up to it. NATO. is supposed to be attacking Lybia for "humanitarian" reasons. They have flown over 2000 missions in their advanced aircraft and attack helicopters and used their most powerfull non-nuclear weapons after destroying the Libyan air defences. They have killed one of Gadaffi's sons and two grandchildren in an attempt to asassinate Gadaffi. Money is no object if it's to destroy the Lybian infrastructure but ask for a genuine show of humanity and there is little to be seen. A few weeks into the start of  the war 72 refugees fleeing by boat from the fighting left Libya  ran out of fuel. They were passed by numerous NATO warships and helicopters all of which ignored their distress calls. By the time they finally made land only 11 had not died from lack of water and food. The West is totally hypocritical in its approach to human rights and war crimes and it is only able to maintain its stance with the aid of a compliant media which repeats ad nauseum some stories and conveniently brushes others under the carpet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2011 at 8:13am
Originally posted by omri jones omri jones wrote:

Human rights is something the west emphasizes only when it's about to attack some poorly equipped nation who stands up to it. NATO. is supposed to be attacking Lybia for "humanitarian" reasons. They have flown over 2000 missions in their advanced aircraft and attack helicopters and used their most powerfull non-nuclear weapons after destroying the Libyan air defences. They have killed one of Gadaffi's sons and two grandchildren in an attempt to asassinate Gadaffi. Money is no object if it's to destroy the Lybian infrastructure but ask for a genuine show of humanity and there is little to be seen. A few weeks into the start of  the war 72 refugees fleeing by boat from the fighting left Libya  ran out of fuel. They were passed by numerous NATO warships and helicopters all of which ignored their distress calls. By the time they finally made land only 11 had not died from lack of water and food. The West is totally hypocritical in its approach to human rights and war crimes and it is only able to maintain its stance with the aid of a compliant media which repeats ad nauseum some stories and conveniently brushes others under the carpet.
 
The massacre in Srebonica had nothing whatsoever to do with standing up to the West. It was ethnic cleansing!I really can't understand the comparison between the current Libyan conflict, where Nato are trying to get rid of another crazy despot, and the situation in Srebonica where thousands of innocent men and boys were slaughtered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2011 at 8:17am
Where am I agueing to the contrary?
 
As for a compliant media, I don't necessarily agree that all media organisations buy into the government line, but many clearly do. I'd hazard a guess that the paper from which you sourced the above story perhaps don't or is that a personal experience?
 
In any event, NATO have perpetrated far worse 'crimes' over the last 20 years, many of which simply never made the press. But in amongst all that, Mladic is still a murdering barstand, and history is generally written and guided by the victors of wars and conflicts.
 
 
#George
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2011 at 8:19am
Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by omri jones omri jones wrote:

Human rights is something the west emphasizes only when it's about to attack some poorly equipped nation who stands up to it. NATO. is supposed to be attacking Lybia for "humanitarian" reasons. They have flown over 2000 missions in their advanced aircraft and attack helicopters and used their most powerfull non-nuclear weapons after destroying the Libyan air defences. They have killed one of Gadaffi's sons and two grandchildren in an attempt to asassinate Gadaffi. Money is no object if it's to destroy the Lybian infrastructure but ask for a genuine show of humanity and there is little to be seen. A few weeks into the start of  the war 72 refugees fleeing by boat from the fighting left Libya  ran out of fuel. They were passed by numerous NATO warships and helicopters all of which ignored their distress calls. By the time they finally made land only 11 had not died from lack of water and food. The West is totally hypocritical in its approach to human rights and war crimes and it is only able to maintain its stance with the aid of a compliant media which repeats ad nauseum some stories and conveniently brushes others under the carpet.
 
The massacre in Srebonica had nothing whatsoever to do with standing up to the West. It was ethnic cleansing!I really can't understand the comparison between the current Libyan conflict, where Nato are trying to get rid of another crazy despot, and the situation in Srebonica where thousands of innocent men and boys were slaughtered.
Exactly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SMELLYMIKE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2011 at 8:50am
An interesting point that comes out of this debate is that ultimately money buys the west and especially the Americans the moral ground...America has been involved in many underhanded schemes in central america in the past which has been conveniently overlooked .The un as an institution has often been influenced by American thinking via its european allies(mainly us)....Now my point is , what will happen in the next 50 years when china becomes the global giant , with its world wide influence......whilst i feel most can understand the psyche of another western goverment , i feel we will all struggle to come to terms with a chinese mentality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2011 at 9:01am
Originally posted by SMELLYMIKE SMELLYMIKE wrote:

An interesting point that comes out of this debate is that ultimately money buys the west and especially the Americans the moral ground...America has been involved in many underhanded schemes in central america in the past which has been conveniently overlooked .The un as an institution has often been influenced by American thinking via its european allies(mainly us)....Now my point is , what will happen in the next 50 years when china becomes the global giant , with its world wide influence......whilst i feel most can understand the psyche of another western goverment , i feel we will all struggle to come to terms with a chinese mentality.
 
Peaked and already in decline, economy under-cooked and then over-heated...aspirations of the common man will never be met. All the ingredients in place just as they were when Gorbarchev came to power in Russia. The country will spiral in to civil war and ultimately a swathe of smaller domains.
 
 
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