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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 8:19am |
aber-fan wrote:
I'm with Rob on this. The vote was all about the internal politics of the Tory party - nothing else. The result came about because many people were thoroughly fed up with the politicians - probably especially Cameron and Osborne, who campaigned for Remain - and wanted to give them a kick in the goolies. Gut feeling came into it far more than any rational decision making, not helped by the xenophobic hysteria of the Daily Mail and other Hitler-supporting rags. (No, I won't apologise or retract that comment, because first, it's true, and second, we're moving in the same direction again - as Trump's caging of children shows.)
Farage himself admitted that the £350 million a week for the NHS was a lie THE DAY AFTER THE REFERENDUM, FFS!
What sort of 'debate' was there - and who knew what the deal would look like? By now, we have a pretty good idea - a total shambles, presided over by Theresa May, Boris the Clown, and criminal expenses fiddler Liam Fox. As for David Davis, I doubt he could find his own backside, let alone a way out of the mess he's got us into.
As for 'taking control of our own borders' - no-one has yet come up with any plausible explanation for what will happen between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland. I was in NI from 1971-74 - dark days, with an incredibly high murder rate. I REALLY don't want to see this nonsense causing a return to all that.
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Aber clearly from previous posts I do not entirely agree with you on this issue so we can agree to disagree. I would however be interested to know why you think that having a hard border between Northern Ireland & Eire will lead to a return to violence. I have yet to see any mutually acceptable proposal put forward to solve the border issue so if needs must a hard border it is. Don't really see the problem. There are hard borders working efficiently all over the World so why should this be any different.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 11:45am |
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Expect we won't be able to have separate trade deals with individual EU companies of course. Some of my friends who voted leave said we would be free to make trade deals with Germany, France etc. I had to explain to them that this would not be possible. Surprised them that did.
There was a suggestion earlier in the thread that the German people won't let Merkell make a bad deal with the UK regarding the automotive industry as Germany sells heavily into the UK. Unfortunately it won't be the German people that decide - it will be the citizens of the EU that decide and there is no way in this God's Earth that the EU will let the UK have a better deal after they leave than they have now.
The reason I am so disappointed with the level of the debate stems from a lecture I went to by a former British Ambassador to the US who outlined the facts regarding Brexit and debunked much of the nonsense being spouted by the politicians. Anyone who listened to that debate would never have voted leave. |
As soon as you mention a former career politician/diplomat my immediate reaction is to turn off. Hidden agendas & jobs for the boys spring to mind. I recall a quote from Farage addressing the plethora of EU MEP's where he chastised them as " never having done a proper days work in their lives".
I prefer to listen to the views of people who have been there, got their hands dirty & created thousands of jobs for British people namely James Dyson, CEO of Dysons; Tim Martin founder of Wetherspoons & the richest man in Britain Jim Radcliffe Chairman & CEO of Ineos the largest privately owned British company. All three are staunch supporters of Brexit. If it is proved that these guys are wrong then I am in good company.
What I would agree with you & Aber on though is the team we have appointed to carry on our negotiations. Certainly we would have needed some government role but why did we not employ one of the above three or someone like Alan Sugar to head up the team. These are people who are used to brinkmanship & deal making & would not be talked down or brow beaten by Barnier & his cronies.
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roy munster
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 2:07pm |
Theres no doubt its been handled appallingly I wish the bremainers had been better informed, their decisions were based on scaremongering, cowardice , destruction of sovereignty and democracy and failure to grasp the basic facts. Sadly the bremainers are so dumbed down by mass burocracy, monstrous corporations with their 3% taxes and subservience to a superstate they cant see a way out of this maze. Clearly all logic tells you that trebling the number of politicians , destroying the high streets, raising vat across the whole continent, seeing umpteen european countries go bankrupt and open unchecked borders at a time of record levels of terrorism. Basically another few decades of unaccounted EU expansion and we could all have ended up as greece or romania or italy. Thank goodness for the pound and individuals ability to sack corrupt self serving wasteful politicians.
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dr_martinov
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 2:59pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
What I would agree with you & Aber on though is the team we have appointed to carry on our negotiations. Certainly we would have needed some government role but why did we not employ one of the above three or someone like Alan Sugar to head up the team. These are people who are used to brinkmanship & deal making & would not be talked down or brow beaten by Barnier & his cronies.
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I think a clear, strong vision and optimistic PR would have helped. Yes, part of that is on the Remain campaign's attitude but they are exercising their right to protest and clearly a better attempt needs to be made to convince them over to the benefits Brexit may present. It was such a close vote and people had a strong view either way that essentially 50% of the nation was going to be pissed off whilst the other 50% was going to be smug.
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SA14
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 3:27pm |
Those who know nothing about politics were targeted with the immigrant card. Same as in America. It worked for them on both occasions.
Edited by SA14 - 26 June 2018 at 3:27pm
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BlackwoodScarlet
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 4:13pm |
SA14 wrote:
Those who know nothing about politics were targeted with the immigrant card. Same as in America. It worked for them on both occasions. | Are you refering to Merkels open border policy? Because that has been disastrous for Europe
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roy munster
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 6:46pm |
SA14 wrote:
Those who know nothing about politics were targeted with the immigrant card. Same as in America. It worked for them on both occasions. |
These who know nothing about politics and economics targeted and slandered the 18 million brexiteers as a bunch of racists.
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reesytheexile
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 7:55pm |
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄
Edited by reesytheexile - 26 June 2018 at 7:56pm
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roy munster
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Posted: 26 June 2018 at 8:35pm |
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out
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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 8:02am |
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit.
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dr_martinov
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 11:13am |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit. |
Unelected? It is often a low turnout but I thought MEPs were elected? Can you specify please. And are you saying that the membership of the EU was what contributed to the financial crashes in those countries? I thought the EU was able to provide them with money to bail them out?
You're right that trust in politicians is very low and I can see people are fed up with multiple layers of politics.
This thread has genuinely been interesting, a certain poster's rants aside, and encouraged me to think more objectively on the potential pros and cons of Brexit. I think I've been too influenced by my personal dislike of people like Boris Johnson and Farrage and their bullpoo and the knowledge that Brexit indicates we'll probably have a Tory government until the end of my life.
I think my main worry with Brexit is decreased freedom of movement (many of my colleagues are EU and we benefit enormously from them wanting to come to the UK IMO) and resultant impact on the jobs market, followed by Britain having a reduced voice on European and Global issues. To me, the world is bigger than the UK but then I also accept it's bigger than the EU as well and being part of the latter clearly wasn't working for 52% of the population. I'm willing to give it a chance as it's going to happen but I also think we simply have to accept there may be short term damage - again, the pro-Brexit people and political facilitators should have made things like this clear to people but they are stuck due to our national political situation and risks to their own grasps on power. As it was, we were all fed lies on both sides and it's been said a few times here a clear debate was needed. It's not the end of the world though.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 12:00pm |
dr_martinov wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit. |
Unelected? It is often a low turnout but I thought MEPs were elected? Can you specify please. And are you saying that the membership of the EU was what contributed to the financial crashes in those countries? I thought the EU was able to provide them with money to bail them out?
You're right that trust in politicians is very low and I can see people are fed up with multiple layers of politics.
This thread has genuinely been interesting, a certain poster's rants aside, and encouraged me to think more objectively on the potential pros and cons of Brexit. I think I've been too influenced by my personal dislike of people like Boris Johnson and Farrage and their bullpoo and the knowledge that Brexit indicates we'll probably have a Tory government until the end of my life.
I think my main worry with Brexit is decreased freedom of movement (many of my colleagues are EU and we benefit enormously from them wanting to come to the UK IMO) and resultant impact on the jobs market, followed by Britain having a reduced voice on European and Global issues. To me, the world is bigger than the UK but then I also accept it's bigger than the EU as well and being part of the latter clearly wasn't working for 52% of the population. I'm willing to give it a chance as it's going to happen but I also think we simply have to accept there may be short term damage - again, the pro-Brexit people and political facilitators should have made things like this clear to people but they are stuck due to our national political situation and risks to their own grasps on power. As it was, we were all fed lies on both sides and it's been said a few times here a clear debate was needed. It's not the end of the world though. |
You are correct Dr. M MEP's are elected. Roy & I refer to the thousands of non elected members of the EU - Barnier being one I think. Also the fact that the EU financial machine has not been the subject of an independent regular audit is mind boggling when the numbers involved are scary.
It is a pleasure to debate this topic with someone who is prepared to listen to all sides. I too worry for the fate of essential EU workers but having worked abroad myself under a system of work permits I believe the problem should not be insurmountable. What I do feel very strongly about is that a system of open borders is asking for trouble as Angela Merkle is finding out. With regard to the troubles experienced by some EU member countries I am suggesting that the membership of a single currency did impose huge restrictions on their abilities to make prudent changes for their particular economies. There is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will be a true test case as I think there are a number of countries who would like to pull back from an ever increasing Federal State of Europe.
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salmidach
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 1:43pm |
You have the elected MEPs but there is also the unelected commission as well as the european council.
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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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BlackwoodScarlet
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 7:06pm |
GPR - Rochester wrote:
dr_martinov wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit. |
Unelected? It is often a low turnout but I thought MEPs were elected? Can you specify please. And are you saying that the membership of the EU was what contributed to the financial crashes in those countries? I thought the EU was able to provide them with money to bail them out?
You're right that trust in politicians is very low and I can see people are fed up with multiple layers of politics.
This thread has genuinely been interesting, a certain poster's rants aside, and encouraged me to think more objectively on the potential pros and cons of Brexit. I think I've been too influenced by my personal dislike of people like Boris Johnson and Farrage and their bullpoo and the knowledge that Brexit indicates we'll probably have a Tory government until the end of my life.
I think my main worry with Brexit is decreased freedom of movement (many of my colleagues are EU and we benefit enormously from them wanting to come to the UK IMO) and resultant impact on the jobs market, followed by Britain having a reduced voice on European and Global issues. To me, the world is bigger than the UK but then I also accept it's bigger than the EU as well and being part of the latter clearly wasn't working for 52% of the population. I'm willing to give it a chance as it's going to happen but I also think we simply have to accept there may be short term damage - again, the pro-Brexit people and political facilitators should have made things like this clear to people but they are stuck due to our national political situation and risks to their own grasps on power. As it was, we were all fed lies on both sides and it's been said a few times here a clear debate was needed. It's not the end of the world though. |
You are correct Dr. M MEP's are elected. Roy & I refer to the thousands of non elected members of the EU - Barnier being one I think. Also the fact that the EU financial machine has not been the subject of an independent regular audit is mind boggling when the numbers involved are scary.
It is a pleasure to debate this topic with someone who is prepared to listen to all sides. I too worry for the fate of essential EU workers but having worked abroad myself under a system of work permits I believe the problem should not be insurmountable. What I do feel very strongly about is that a system of open borders is asking for trouble as Angela Merkle is finding out. With regard to the troubles experienced by some EU member countries I am suggesting that the membership of a single currency did impose huge restrictions on their abilities to make prudent changes for their particular economies. There is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will be a true test case as I think there are a number of countries who would like to pull back from an ever increasing Federal State of Europe. | You do know Corbyn was and still is anti EU
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M.M.
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 8:53pm |
BlackwoodScarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
dr_martinov wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit. |
Unelected? It is often a low turnout but I thought MEPs were elected? Can you specify please. And are you saying that the membership of the EU was what contributed to the financial crashes in those countries? I thought the EU was able to provide them with money to bail them out?
You're right that trust in politicians is very low and I can see people are fed up with multiple layers of politics.
This thread has genuinely been interesting, a certain poster's rants aside, and encouraged me to think more objectively on the potential pros and cons of Brexit. I think I've been too influenced by my personal dislike of people like Boris Johnson and Farrage and their bullpoo and the knowledge that Brexit indicates we'll probably have a Tory government until the end of my life.
I think my main worry with Brexit is decreased freedom of movement (many of my colleagues are EU and we benefit enormously from them wanting to come to the UK IMO) and resultant impact on the jobs market, followed by Britain having a reduced voice on European and Global issues. To me, the world is bigger than the UK but then I also accept it's bigger than the EU as well and being part of the latter clearly wasn't working for 52% of the population. I'm willing to give it a chance as it's going to happen but I also think we simply have to accept there may be short term damage - again, the pro-Brexit people and political facilitators should have made things like this clear to people but they are stuck due to our national political situation and risks to their own grasps on power. As it was, we were all fed lies on both sides and it's been said a few times here a clear debate was needed. It's not the end of the world though. |
You are correct Dr. M MEP's are elected. Roy & I refer to the thousands of non elected members of the EU - Barnier being one I think. Also the fact that the EU financial machine has not been the subject of an independent regular audit is mind boggling when the numbers involved are scary.
It is a pleasure to debate this topic with someone who is prepared to listen to all sides. I too worry for the fate of essential EU workers but having worked abroad myself under a system of work permits I believe the problem should not be insurmountable. What I do feel very strongly about is that a system of open borders is asking for trouble as Angela Merkle is finding out. With regard to the troubles experienced by some EU member countries I am suggesting that the membership of a single currency did impose huge restrictions on their abilities to make prudent changes for their particular economies. There is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will be a true test case as I think there are a number of countries who would like to pull back from an ever increasing Federal State of Europe. | You do know Corbyn was and still is anti EU | Corbyn, for all his faults, isn't stupid. He knows that the Labour party is unelectable unless they appeal to the south east of England. Under the system of First Past the Post, they hold all the aces. As a Welsnman, I despise being at the behest of those people. I forsee Wales being permanently governed by the Tories unless we break free of their dogma.
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roy munster
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Posted: 27 June 2018 at 10:09pm |
M.M. wrote:
BlackwoodScarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
dr_martinov wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
roy munster wrote:
reesytheexile wrote:
To sum up it seems that Wales basically chose / placed their trust in Westminster and the Tories over Europe. 🙄 |
No they placed their trust in democracy, they can always vote the tories out, they cant vote the EU or its unelected commission out |
Correct Roy. Most of us on here correctly in my opinion have no trust in elected politicians of any colour. I am at a total loss why anyone would trust unelected, unaccountable career politicians who have had their noses in the trough for tens of years. You quite correctly point to countries like Greece, Spain, Italy & Portugal who have come very close to bankruptcy. Do remainers truly believe us Brits aren't capable of steering our own ship. Whoever it was who decided to keep Sterling - it was Maggie I think - deserves huge credit. |
Unelected? It is often a low turnout but I thought MEPs were elected? Can you specify please. And are you saying that the membership of the EU was what contributed to the financial crashes in those countries? I thought the EU was able to provide them with money to bail them out?
You're right that trust in politicians is very low and I can see people are fed up with multiple layers of politics.
This thread has genuinely been interesting, a certain poster's rants aside, and encouraged me to think more objectively on the potential pros and cons of Brexit. I think I've been too influenced by my personal dislike of people like Boris Johnson and Farrage and their bullpoo and the knowledge that Brexit indicates we'll probably have a Tory government until the end of my life.
I think my main worry with Brexit is decreased freedom of movement (many of my colleagues are EU and we benefit enormously from them wanting to come to the UK IMO) and resultant impact on the jobs market, followed by Britain having a reduced voice on European and Global issues. To me, the world is bigger than the UK but then I also accept it's bigger than the EU as well and being part of the latter clearly wasn't working for 52% of the population. I'm willing to give it a chance as it's going to happen but I also think we simply have to accept there may be short term damage - again, the pro-Brexit people and political facilitators should have made things like this clear to people but they are stuck due to our national political situation and risks to their own grasps on power. As it was, we were all fed lies on both sides and it's been said a few times here a clear debate was needed. It's not the end of the world though. |
You are correct Dr. M MEP's are elected. Roy & I refer to the thousands of non elected members of the EU - Barnier being one I think. Also the fact that the EU financial machine has not been the subject of an independent regular audit is mind boggling when the numbers involved are scary.
It is a pleasure to debate this topic with someone who is prepared to listen to all sides. I too worry for the fate of essential EU workers but having worked abroad myself under a system of work permits I believe the problem should not be insurmountable. What I do feel very strongly about is that a system of open borders is asking for trouble as Angela Merkle is finding out. With regard to the troubles experienced by some EU member countries I am suggesting that the membership of a single currency did impose huge restrictions on their abilities to make prudent changes for their particular economies. There is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will be a true test case as I think there are a number of countries who would like to pull back from an ever increasing Federal State of Europe. | You do know Corbyn was and still is anti EU |
Corbyn, for all his faults, isn't stupid. He knows that the Labour party is unelectable unless they appeal to the south east of England. Under the system of First Past the Post, they hold all the aces. As a Welsnman, I despise being at the behest of those people. I forsee Wales being permanently governed by the Tories unless we break free of their dogma. |
The tories are irrelevant , we had labour they were a disaster too....we the welsh need to work out what we are what type of society we want , were the poorest nation in the eu...our gdp per head is 3 times less than london we have no industrial policy our high streets are decimated nhs waiting times worse than the rest of the uk dont get me wrong i love wales its clean its beautiful uncongested friendly etc but we need wise up and get real and stop allowing our politicians destroy our ambition waste our talents and resources
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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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