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aber-fan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:


Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:


Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:


Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:


Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Losing faith.

Rapidly.

I'd say that I'm now off to cricket - if the wicket in Nagpur was playable.

Really sad that Lloyd has 5 weeks
. What a disgrace rugby has become.


I don't have a problem with that - it was a bad tackle.

I DO have a problem with others getting away with it, like the Samoan, and Hore - and, apparently, that dick Hartley (I haven't seen his offence).


It wasn't a bad tackle. A "spear" tackle where the player is turned and deliberately driven into the ground head first is a bad tackle. This is where citing officers should intervene and not justifying their existence on nothing incidents like Lloyd Williams'.


I have to disagree. To my eyes, it looked exactly like a 'spear tackle' as defined in the laws. Lloyd turned the guy upside-down, and banged his head/neck into the ground.

Scarletman, or another ref - what's the 'professional' view on this one?


It is the laws of the game that I am questioning - as they stand players are being red carded, cited and banned for very innocuous challenges with no intent to cause injury, and funnily enough, no actual injuries being caused. These challenges are very different to the deliberate spear tackle where injury is intended - search YouTube for spear tackles and please tell me where Warburton, Stephen Jones or Lloyd Williams fit into any of these categories.



When i was watching the game on Sunday my immediate reaction was red card. Dangerous or not it was a brain dead stupid tackle. Surely driving him backwards and landing him on his arse is better than the strongman look.........why do players do such stupid things.

On another note ive said before the citing procedure depends on how many professional ladies you pair up with the "judges".....pathetic consistency.



Sorry, but sometimes a spear tackle doesn't result in injury because the tackler got lucky - end of.

Lloyd's tackle was IMO a spear tackle, as was Warbie's (can't remember the detail of Stevo's so no opinion on that one).

That DOES NOT forgive the powers that be for letting off players for far worse offences and/or players with 'previous' with pitiful slaps on the wrist - or nothing at all (Samoan).
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2012 at 5:12pm
I'm getting fed up of answering this ...

The offence of Dangerous/spear Tackle is made up as follows ...

  1. Did the tackler lift the ball carrier off the floor
  2. Did the Ball Carriers Legs go above the horizontal (tip)
  3. Did the tackler return the player to ground safely
in the Lloyd Williams Case, the Answers were Yes/Yes/No hence the Red Card
Had the answers been Yes/Yes/Yes, then a Yellow Card would have been sufficient
Had the Answer been Yes/No/ then 3 wouldn't have come into effect ! No Penalty / No Card !

All judgement should be based on Fact .. Officials/Citing/Disciplinary SHOULD NOT take into account intent/occasion/player size !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedZep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:45am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:


I'm getting fed up of answering this ...

The offence of Dangerous/spear Tackle is made up as follows ...

  1. Did the tackler lift the ball carrier off the floor
  2. Did the Ball Carriers Legs go above the horizontal (tip)
  3. Did the tackler return the player to ground safely
in the Lloyd Williams Case, the Answers were Yes/Yes/No hence the Red Card
Had the answers been Yes/Yes/Yes, then a Yellow Card would have been sufficient
Had the Answer been Yes/No/ then 3 wouldn't have come into effect ! No Penalty / No Card !

All judgement should be based on Fact .. Officials/Citing/Disciplinary SHOULD NOT take into account intent/occasion/player size !


This highlights my point that it is the laws of the game that are wrong (IMO).

Try applying these three rules to a lifter in the lineout who's jumper ends up coming down head first unoffended. 1) yes, 2) yes, 3) no. Hence red card? Of course not.

The reason why no lifter has ever been red carded, cited or banned Is because when such incidents have happened there is obviously no INTENT to deliberately hurt the player, even though the potential for injury is identical if not worse.

It's just common sense to me that INTENT is everything when it comes to making these decisions. I know they are ever so slightly different technical offences, but somebody please explain to me that Lloyd Williams intent was the same as Andrew Hore's and therefore both warranted an identical ban?

(Jon, I don't know if that's verbatim the wording of the rule book, but to lose the word "intent" in amongst comedy words like "player size" and "occasion" is criminal, IMO. Aber, the Stephen Jones incident I mentioned earlier was ref to v's Tommy Bowe at the Library last season when he was carded )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:58am
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:


I'm getting fed up of answering this ...

The offence of Dangerous/spear Tackle is made up as follows ...

  1. Did the tackler lift the ball carrier off the floor
  2. Did the Ball Carriers Legs go above the horizontal (tip)
  3. Did the tackler return the player to ground safely
in the Lloyd Williams Case, the Answers were Yes/Yes/No hence the Red Card
Had the answers been Yes/Yes/Yes, then a Yellow Card would have been sufficient
Had the Answer been Yes/No/ then 3 wouldn't have come into effect ! No Penalty / No Card !

All judgement should be based on Fact .. Officials/Citing/Disciplinary SHOULD NOT take into account intent/occasion/player size !


This highlights my point that it is the laws of the game that are wrong (IMO).

Try applying these three rules to a lifter in the lineout who's jumper ends up coming down head first unoffended. 1) yes, 2) yes, 3) no. Hence red card? Of course not.

The reason why no lifter has ever been red carded, cited or banned Is because when such incidents have happened there is obviously no INTENT to deliberately hurt the player, even though the potential for injury is identical if not worse.

It's just common sense to me that INTENT is everything when it comes to making these decisions. I know they are ever so slightly different technical offences, but somebody please explain to me that Lloyd Williams intent was the same as Andrew Hore's and therefore both warranted an identical ban?

(Jon, I don't know if that's verbatim the wording of the rule book, but to lose the word "intent" in amongst comedy words like "player size" and "occasion" is criminal, IMO. Aber, the Stephen Jones incident I mentioned earlier was ref to v's Tommy Bowe at the Library last season when he was carded )

Mick, its a different offence at the lineout, as its not a tackle.. its charging the lifter ! & yes there have been Red cards for that offence.
you cant apply the same criteria, as the "ball carrier was not lifted by a tackler" !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedZep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 10:44am
Sorry, Jon, I didn't explain myself very well. I was referring to lifters simply losing control of their own man, not being taken out as such.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2012 at 11:13am
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

Sorry, Jon, I didn't explain myself very well. I was referring to lifters simply losing control of their own man, not being taken out as such.



I get your drift zep, but i can still see Stevo doing half the tackle Lloyd did and was yellow carded at the liberty,,,, they are stupid stupid show stuff tackle, hard and low and driving is far more effective, the question for me is why do they do it.

In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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