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Is America becoming a failed state?

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RR1972 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2021 at 12:22pm
I've always enjoyed my time in the states,  granted I've only really done the touristy parts
 
I've been to parts of Africa and Asia and seen real poverty , not saying that the usa doesn't have that but it is on the whole far more affluent and the people have a better life expectancy , better chance of progression and generally a better life style
 
Not saying the usa is perfect and as you point out the health care system is a mess but my point stands people flock to the usa in pursuit of a better life and have done for hundreds of years same as people come to the uk for the exact same reason
 
We are judging the flaws of our nations on a first world perspective and that needs to be taken into account
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2021 at 6:08pm
One of the mob tried to wave the flag of the state of Georgia as a protest against the result in that state. Unfortunately he waved the flag of the country of Georgia, and not the American state! Just about sums up the intelligence of all that were there!

Edited by Jones2004 - 07 January 2021 at 6:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2021 at 6:42pm
Whilst trump continues his embarrassing and dangerous tantrum, the US lost a record 4100 lives to covid yesterday. Just horrific.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2021 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I've always enjoyed my time in the states,  granted I've only really done the touristy parts
 
I've been to parts of Africa and Asia and seen real poverty , not saying that the usa doesn't have that but it is on the whole far more affluent and the people have a better life expectancy , better chance of progression and generally a better life style
 
Not saying the usa is perfect and as you point out the health care system is a mess but my point stands people flock to the usa in pursuit of a better life and have done for hundreds of years same as people come to the uk for the exact same reason
 
We are judging the flaws of our nations on a first world perspective and that needs to be taken into account

I love the place. If I ever uproots I’d go there no doubt. My personal experience of the American public and in restaurants and shops in general they put people in this country to shame. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2021 at 7:59pm
Went to Chicago about 25 years ago, for a week, centred around a conference.

Took the opportunity to catch up with a friend who was out there for a 3 year posting for the Northern Ireland Development Board. He quite liked the novelty of it all but described it as a Police State with far too many rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 8:24am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whilst trump continues his embarrassing and dangerous tantrum, the US lost a record 4100 lives to covid yesterday. Just horrific.
Aye, they lost as many people in one day as they did soldiers in the whole of the Iraq war.  Almost a tenth of the whole Vietnam war.

There's a lot of work to be done to get this country back into shape.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 9:10am
I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 2:41pm
Whilst trump has clearly lost the plot here, lets face it he is absolutely furious, but he has failed to actually prove massive amounts of voter fraud in the crucial swing states so he must leave with dignity....But in the interests of balance and objectivity despite his meltdown, I do think the coverage over trump has been incredibly biased and hypocritical against him from day 1. The liberal bias is simply staggering facts bear this out. In the first few months the coverage was over 60% positive for Obama and he was even offered the nobel peace prize in the first year...The opposite was the case with Trump. The liberal media preach about respect in politics yet they go and encourage 100s of naked blimps and naked statues of the president across the major cities...If that had been done for a democratic candidate there would shouts of sexism and racism, there would be riots. 

Obama whilst having far more grace and good manners, still deported more immigrants than all the previous US presidents put together, yet nothing was said about it. But Trump was the racist. Obama used drone strikes at record numbers ,yet that was buried. One interview with 60 minutes last year when Trump stated the simple facts that prior to the covid outbreak , that unemployment rates were at their lowest in decades and the stock market was it its highest, the interviewer replied, we know thats not true. She was lying there plain and simple yet nothing was said about it. Is that acceptable? The jobs market and stock market did exceptionally well under Trump across all sectors all ages , both genders and races. 
 
The BBC america channel is completely biased has been from day 1 and offers biased opinion there is nothing neutral about it. The coverage of the BLM riots was biased, barely a word was said about the lack of social distancing and spreading the virus as 100s of thousands marched across every major city in the world. All funded by George soros. Yet when cummings broke his own rules all hell broke loose. yet the press pack chasing him were also breaking all social distancing rules themselves. The bias and hypocrisy is staggering.

Its easy all to jump on 1 man now, as his old friend piers morgan will do. As every liberal comic has done for 4 years. Yes blame trump for everything including covid. Yet the mayor of new york , a democrat, is a hero, despite the worst covid rates in america, that too is all trumps fault. Now trump who lets face it has been idiotic in many ways but especially his covid handling and encouraging massive crowds at his rallies, now hes incited his supporters to violence. Yet he has a record 72 million voters and you can bet your life they feel angry and alienated by the media coverage. The news turned a blind eye the the BLM marches the and the 19 people killed in them last year and the 1000s injured and the massive spread of the covid disease and the 100s of businesses destroyed etc Did the biased liberal media help discourage this or encourage it? Did the liberal media incite this violence?

Over 80% of CNN's coverage is about 1 man, trump bashing, who knows what they will have to talk about for the next 4 years...The bias is deeply disturbing regardless who you vote for. Lets hope mr Biden and all future presidents are scrutinised properly by the media, I very much doubt they will be.




Edited by roy munster - 08 January 2021 at 2:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whilst trump has clearly lost the plot here, lets face it he is absolutely furious, but he has failed to actually prove massive amounts of voter fraud in the crucial swing states so he must leave with dignity....But in the interests of balance and objectivity despite his meltdown, I do think the coverage over trump has been incredibly biased and hypocritical against him from day 1. The liberal bias is simply staggering facts bear this out. In the first few months the coverage was over 60% positive for Obama and he was even offered the nobel peace prize in the first year...The opposite was the case with Trump. The liberal media preach about respect in politics yet they go and encourage 100s of naked blimps and naked statues of the president across the major cities...If that had been done for a democratic candidate there would shouts of sexism and racism, there would be riots. 

Obama whilst having far more grace and good manners, still deported more immigrants than all the previous US presidents put together, yet nothing was said about it. But Trump was the racist. Obama used drone strikes at record numbers ,yet that was buried. One interview with 60 minutes last year when Trump stated the simple facts that prior to the covid outbreak , that unemployment rates were at their lowest in decades and the stock market was it its highest, the interviewer replied, we know thats not true. She was lying there plain and simple yet nothing was said about it. Is that acceptable? The jobs market and stock market did exceptionally well under Trump across all sectors all ages , both genders and races. 
 
The BBC america channel is completely biased has been from day 1 and offers biased opinion there is nothing neutral about it. The coverage of the BLM riots was biased, barely a word was said about the lack of social distancing and spreading the virus as 100s of thousands marched across every major city in the world. All funded by George soros. Yet when cummings broke his own rules all hell broke loose. yet the press pack chasing him were also breaking all social distancing rules themselves. The bias and hypocrisy is staggering.

Its easy all to jump on 1 man now, as his old friend piers morgan will do. As every liberal comic has done for 4 years. Yes blame trump for everything including covid. Yet the mayor of new york , a democrat, is a hero, despite the worst covid rates in america, that too is all trumps fault. Now trump who lets face it has been idiotic in many ways but especially his covid handling and encouraging massive crowds at his rallies, now hes incited his supporters to violence. Yet he has a record 72 million voters and you can bet your life they feel angry and alienated by the media coverage. The news turned a blind eye the the BLM marches the and the 19 people killed in them last year and the 1000s injured and the massive spread of the covid disease and the 100s of businesses destroyed etc Did the biased liberal media help discourage this or encourage it? Did the liberal media incite this violence?

Over 80% of CNN's coverage is about 1 man, trump bashing, who knows what they will have to talk about for the next 4 years...The bias is deeply disturbing regardless who you vote for. Lets hope mr Biden and all future presidents are scrutinised properly by the media, I very much doubt they will be.



Roy not a lot I can argue with in that summary. Whichever way you look at Trump you cannot get away from the fact that he is a clown. Yes he did get the American economy going in the right direction and reduced unemployment but simultaneously he took America out of the Paris climate accord. I have no doubt that this time last year he was a shoe in for re-election solely based on his economic record. However his reaction to the pandemic has shown him to be the clown he is. His reactions to clear racist behaviour by law enforcement & losing the election have shown the man in his true colours - a spoilt brat who cannot accept he is beaten fairly or indeed wrong. Inciting violence against fellow politicians is the last straw. He and that lunatic Guiliani should be behind bars. 

By the way my comments about living in America above are nothing to do with Trump although any country who can vote for a man like him as Commander in Chief is dodgy to say the least. Whoever is in power in America makes no difference to me about my desire to live there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.

Good points and a good summary - I've been there a few times, including a 3 month working visit (poorly paid) as a student, so saw some of the issues at ground level.

I like the USA a lot in many ways, but the states are indeed like mini-countries, the judicial system is blatantly politicised, and gerrymandering has allowed the Republicans far more power than they should have based on the popular vote... Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump, but lost - for example. No president can achieve much without approval of both the senate and the house of representatives - the senate is now split 50:50 with a casting vote for Democrat vice-president Kamala Harries - but the Democrats needed 40 million votes more than the Republicans to get their 50 senators!

The system needs a serious overhaul, but will it get one?

(In passing - the UK's first past the post system also needs a serious overhaul, IMO. The Senedd method is more equitable.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whilst trump has clearly lost the plot here, lets face it he is absolutely furious, but he has failed to actually prove massive amounts of voter fraud in the crucial swing states so he must leave with dignity....But in the interests of balance and objectivity despite his meltdown, I do think the coverage over trump has been incredibly biased and hypocritical against him from day 1. The liberal bias is simply staggering facts bear this out.



You made some good points, but here - you have got to be joking.

Trump has told some 30,000 lies whilst in office - nearly all repeated without any challenge by his favourite outlets (until recently, anyway) such as Fox News. He made a point of using Twitter as his favoured method of communication - he didn't need the 'media'. His storm-troopers re-tweeted his lies - and so it went on.


The man is a dangerous autocrat who attempted to foment a coup d'etat to keep himself in power! It is to be hoped that the Americans 'lock him up' - to recycle one of his own phrases.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.

Good points and a good summary - I've been there a few times, including a 3 month working visit (poorly paid) as a student, so saw some of the issues at ground level.

I like the USA a lot in many ways, but the states are indeed like mini-countries, the judicial system is blatantly politicised, and gerrymandering has allowed the Republicans far more power than they should have based on the popular vote... Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump, but lost - for example. No president can achieve much without approval of both the senate and the house of representatives - the senate is now split 50:50 with a casting vote for Democrat vice-president Kamala Harries - but the Democrats needed 40 million votes more than the Republicans to get their 50 senators!

The system needs a serious overhaul, but will it get one?

(In passing - the UK's first past the post system also needs a serious overhaul, IMO. The Senedd method is more equitable.)
 
 
After the shambolic handling of the pandemic the Sendedd should be scrapped imo
 
You make a good point about PR when it comes to government I'd be for that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.

Good points and a good summary - I've been there a few times, including a 3 month working visit (poorly paid) as a student, so saw some of the issues at ground level.

I like the USA a lot in many ways, but the states are indeed like mini-countries, the judicial system is blatantly politicised, and gerrymandering has allowed the Republicans far more power than they should have based on the popular vote... Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump, but lost - for example. No president can achieve much without approval of both the senate and the house of representatives - the senate is now split 50:50 with a casting vote for Democrat vice-president Kamala Harries - but the Democrats needed 40 million votes more than the Republicans to get their 50 senators!

The system needs a serious overhaul, but will it get one?

(In passing - the UK's first past the post system also needs a serious overhaul, IMO. The Senedd method is more equitable.)
 
 
After the shambolic handling of the pandemic the Sendedd should be scrapped imo
 
You make a good point about PR when it comes to government I'd be for that
Why would you want to scrap the Senedd and transfer the power to Boris who doesn’t care less about Wales. Surely if you think a government has performed poorly the answer is to vote for a change of government and not scrap the whole institution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 5:41pm
I think we're actually seeing the effects of the internet and social media rendering certain aspects of countries democracies outdated. I suspect something like this happened after the printing press and increased literacy. At first, people would believed something just because they read it on a flyer and politicians - likely from outside the established political class - would have capitalised on this. Then, over time, it became the norm or the public became desensitised and the impact lessened allowing more mainstream politics to develop further. 

People feel whatever system of representation didn't give them a say or any ability to influence a distant political party. Then Trump and Brexit came along, both of which used social media and targeted advertising expertly. It's not democracy being "hijacked" at all but a new tool most politicians - and the voting public - haven't got used to. One result has been the polarisation of voters within our echo chambers. I was going to say a strength of the us is you can vote "for the other lot" at many levels: congress, senate, governor, president, mayor if there is a much better candidate. It can impact your life a fair bit as well. In the UK it really feels like you don't have much choice and your vote rarely matters. Social media has amplified and polarised these feelings. I think change will alleviate it but it may take time as it's not in the interests of the current regime to change anything. But things do change or else we'd all be voting for the best caveman who can shout the loudest and has fathered  the most children. Oh wait a minute....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whilst trump has clearly lost the plot here, lets face it he is absolutely furious, but he has failed to actually prove massive amounts of voter fraud in the crucial swing states so he must leave with dignity....But in the interests of balance and objectivity despite his meltdown, I do think the coverage over trump has been incredibly biased and hypocritical against him from day 1. The liberal bias is simply staggering facts bear this out.



You made some good points, but here - you have got to be joking.

Trump has told some 30,000 lies whilst in office - nearly all repeated without any challenge by his favourite outlets (until recently, anyway) such as Fox News. He made a point of using Twitter as his favoured method of communication - he didn't need the 'media'. His storm-troopers re-tweeted his lies - and so it went on.


The man is a dangerous autocrat who attempted to foment a coup d'etat to keep himself in power! It is to be hoped that the Americans 'lock him up' - to recycle one of his own phrases.



Im as shocked as anyone by how he has behaved , especially in the last few weeks. I still find it hard to believe he thought such a coup was possible>? But I totally agree he has whipped up his crowd into a frenzy and the man has blood on his hands here...But For me its his handling of covid which is his ultimate failure , especially by encouraging massive crowds to his rallies...As for counting the lies, Im not sure that can be done accurately by a biased media , firstly when is a lie a lie? Much of his hyperbole is either exaggeration or selective facts and figures or over seemingly unrealistic predictions? How can one excavate all the lies from the merely exaggerated hyperbole or over optimistic predictions? Thats not to forget theres lots of lies half truths and exaggerations on all sides...Just take a look at the brexit campaign Take a look at bidens forgotten past take a look at the fact obama deported a record of over 2.5 million immigrants , the record drone strikes , brushed under the carpet.

Trumps anti globalist rhetoric made him the biggest enemies of all, the richest people in the world...How much news coverage is goven to the miniscule amounts of taxation paid by these corporations? This is starving our public services, yet it hardly makes the headlines anymore...Is it lies ? or bias? or selective news? Or is it the fact the news has been bought out by these very same corporations. Lets burn trump at the stake and Im sure all these other problems will disappear Wink




Edited by roy munster - 08 January 2021 at 6:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2021 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I think we're actually seeing the effects of the internet and social media rendering certain aspects of countries democracies outdated. I suspect something like this happened after the printing press and increased literacy. At first, people would believed something just because they read it on a flyer and politicians - likely from outside the established political class - would have capitalised on this. Then, over time, it became the norm or the public became desensitised and the impact lessened allowing more mainstream politics to develop further. 

People feel whatever system of representation didn't give them a say or any ability to influence a distant political party. Then Trump and Brexit came along, both of which used social media and targeted advertising expertly. It's not democracy being "hijacked" at all but a new tool most politicians - and the voting public - haven't got used to. One result has been the polarisation of voters within our echo chambers. I was going to say a strength of the us is you can vote "for the other lot" at many levels: congress, senate, governor, president, mayor if there is a much better candidate. It can impact your life a fair bit as well. In the UK it really feels like you don't have much choice and your vote rarely matters. Social media has amplified and polarised these feelings. I think change will alleviate it but it may take time as it's not in the interests of the current regime to change anything. But things do change or else we'd all be voting for the best caveman who can shout the loudest and has fathered  the most children. Oh wait a minute....

All subtlety and nuance has been lost, all sense of cooperation collaboration compromise has been lost, actual discussion debate convsersation has been lost... everythung is black and white ....agree with us or we will name call you a bigot, sad times.
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