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Is America becoming a failed state?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 9:17am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.

Good points and a good summary - I've been there a few times, including a 3 month working visit (poorly paid) as a student, so saw some of the issues at ground level.

I like the USA a lot in many ways, but the states are indeed like mini-countries, the judicial system is blatantly politicised, and gerrymandering has allowed the Republicans far more power than they should have based on the popular vote... Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump, but lost - for example. No president can achieve much without approval of both the senate and the house of representatives - the senate is now split 50:50 with a casting vote for Democrat vice-president Kamala Harries - but the Democrats needed 40 million votes more than the Republicans to get their 50 senators!

The system needs a serious overhaul, but will it get one?

(In passing - the UK's first past the post system also needs a serious overhaul, IMO. The Senedd method is more equitable.)
 
 
After the shambolic handling of the pandemic the Sendedd should be scrapped imo
 
You make a good point about PR when it comes to government I'd be for that

WRT PR - do you know that the English government has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on spin-doctors, as part of their 'effort' to manipulate the news? Money that would have been better spent on dealing with the COVID crisis?

As part of this effort, the spinners will exaggerate greatly the 'successes' of the English government, and immediately jump on any perceived 'failures' in the devolved administrations.

One example: Wales - following more closely the recommendations of the SAGE advisory group on using a 'firebreak' lockdown (it should have been done in September, according to SAGE) used the tactic by introducing the firebreak at half-term... too late (and experience showed it was too short) but still much earlier than England. For a while, the numbers improved in Wales; they continued to get much worse in England, until they, too, had to impose a lockdown.

Did we hear about this in the English press? No, by and large - we didn't.

Then, later on, when the English had to impose their much longer lockdown - made necessary by their earlier shilly-shallying - their numbers reduced. By then, we had come out of lockdown, and ours were on the way up again.

What did we hear in the papers, and from Johnson? A great success for England - and failure for Wales.

In truth, we were at different parts of the curve, having followed different timetables - that's all. But you would not know that if you believe the spinners.

Do I think Wales has got it right, and England has got it wrong? No - I don't think any of the UK governments has done very well... but as England is the dominant country, and as we have to some extent been forced to follow their pattern, they carry the major responsibility - for example, in spending billions on the privatised, failed 'test and trace' system overseen by a Tory crony.

The full, disgraceful story of why this so-called 'NHS" Test and Trace system is actually run by private companies is covered here:

“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 9:25am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Whilst trump has clearly lost the plot here, lets face it he is absolutely furious, but he has failed to actually prove massive amounts of voter fraud in the crucial swing states so he must leave with dignity....But in the interests of balance and objectivity despite his meltdown, I do think the coverage over trump has been incredibly biased and hypocritical against him from day 1. The liberal bias is simply staggering facts bear this out.



You made some good points, but here - you have got to be joking.

Trump has told some 30,000 lies whilst in office - nearly all repeated without any challenge by his favourite outlets (until recently, anyway) such as Fox News. He made a point of using Twitter as his favoured method of communication - he didn't need the 'media'. His storm-troopers re-tweeted his lies - and so it went on.


The man is a dangerous autocrat who attempted to foment a coup d'etat to keep himself in power! It is to be hoped that the Americans 'lock him up' - to recycle one of his own phrases.



Im as shocked as anyone by how he has behaved , especially in the last few weeks. I still find it hard to believe he thought such a coup was possible>? But I totally agree he has whipped up his crowd into a frenzy and the man has blood on his hands here...But For me its his handling of covid which is his ultimate failure , especially by encouraging massive crowds to his rallies...As for counting the lies, Im not sure that can be done accurately by a biased media , firstly when is a lie a lie? Much of his hyperbole is either exaggeration or selective facts and figures or over seemingly unrealistic predictions? How can one excavate all the lies from the merely exaggerated hyperbole or over optimistic predictions? Thats not to forget theres lots of lies half truths and exaggerations on all sides...Just take a look at the brexit campaign Take a look at bidens forgotten past take a look at the fact obama deported a record of over 2.5 million immigrants , the record drone strikes , brushed under the carpet.

Trumps anti globalist rhetoric made him the biggest enemies of all, the richest people in the world...How much news coverage is goven to the miniscule amounts of taxation paid by these corporations? This is starving our public services, yet it hardly makes the headlines anymore...Is it lies ? or bias? or selective news? Or is it the fact the news has been bought out by these very same corporations. Lets burn trump at the stake and Im sure all these other problems will disappear Wink



I could not agree more with you about the section in bold.

But if you can find anything Trump has done to collect more taxes from the wealthy (including corporations), then you are a better man than I am. For example:


“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 10:13am
Trying to defend Trump's 4 years in office is an impossible task. Is Washington politics corrupt - for sure; do the billionaire owned media tell lies - of course. America is not the exclusive haunt of these problems but no other leader in history has brought the institution of president into so much negative controversy - not even Bush or Clinton who gave it a good go at times. 

The man is a narcacistic buffoon who is totally unfit to have the nuclear button anywhere in reach. The sooner he goes the better for everyone. Biden has a massive task ahead in trying to cope with the pandemic crisis as well as getting the American economy going again. Longer term he will need to reverse the crippling damage done by Trump's total denial of climate change. That doesn't even mention the ongoing racial problems which have been a pandemic in American society for generations but which have been made even worse by a president who cosies up to far right groups like the proud boys who sum up where Biden really has problems as the majority of these radicals are Trump supporters and he got 72 million votes.

This topic, rather tongue in cheek, was named is America a failed state - well when you summarise the issues facing the new president you do begin to wonder. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 10:29am
Climate change is scary and you know the paradox that dirty industries are far more embedded in politics as they have to spend fortunes to try and present a cleaner image. Meaning they have far more political influence and can set the agenda, while eco-friendly remain outsiders. With the rise of super-billionaires like Gates, Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg etc who are essentially above governments we're relying on their good will in terms of what they fund, develop or buy. Trouble with the US is it's so money-driven and their model of consumerism/capitalism (spread throughout the world, including China) isn't compatible with the issues presented by global climate change. In short, Biden has a massive challenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 11:34am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

I am amazed that they only shot 1 person. The way the building was overan with all the senators in the chamber an unknown quantitiy storming the building (has an eerie similarity with the series Designated survivor!) I thought the police would have defended with full force. Terrorism doesnt always come from outside see Oklahoma bombing so am very surprised they only shot 1

Probably because the mob was majority (all?) white, but that's a hypothetical. It could have been a lot worse - although I read they also planted pipe bombs as well?

This was an attempted coup, there's no other way to describe it. The 25th amendment is getting a lot of hits online right now.

It was quite surprising the lack of police presence when the Trump supporters (you could call them lots of other things as well) walked on Capitol Hill following Trump’s rally.
It was in complete contrast to the police presence during the BLM protests held throughout America in recent months.
Having watched the initial march on the news on Wednesday evening I too was very surprised when I woke up the following morning to find that only 1 person had been shot dead (still 1 too much though).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

I am amazed that they only shot 1 person. The way the building was overan with all the senators in the chamber an unknown quantitiy storming the building (has an eerie similarity with the series Designated survivor!) I thought the police would have defended with full force. Terrorism doesnt always come from outside see Oklahoma bombing so am very surprised they only shot 1

Probably because the mob was majority (all?) white, but that's a hypothetical. It could have been a lot worse - although I read they also planted pipe bombs as well?

This was an attempted coup, there's no other way to describe it. The 25th amendment is getting a lot of hits online right now.

It was quite surprising the lack of police presence when the Trump supporters (you could call them lots of other things as well) walked on Capitol Hill following Trump’s rally.
It was in complete contrast to the police presence during the BLM protests held throughout America in recent months.
Having watched the initial march on the news on Wednesday evening I too was very surprised when I woke up the following morning to find that only 1 person had been shot dead (still 1 too much though).
Unfortunately five people have now been confirmed to have died at the event. Four Trump supporters and a police officer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I have visited America extensively for work and leisure. It is a huge country full of extremes both in nature and peoples. I would never want to live there - gun control is non existent; downtown areas of all cities I have visited are no go areas whether you are black or white; racial tensions exist in most areas but particularly in the Southern states.

I could never trust a system where the judiciary system in each state is a political decision & individuals can only run for senior political office if they have enough money. Of course I am not saying that we in Europe are without fault but I would certainly live in most European countries before I would ever choose America.

Good points and a good summary - I've been there a few times, including a 3 month working visit (poorly paid) as a student, so saw some of the issues at ground level.

I like the USA a lot in many ways, but the states are indeed like mini-countries, the judicial system is blatantly politicised, and gerrymandering has allowed the Republicans far more power than they should have based on the popular vote... Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump, but lost - for example. No president can achieve much without approval of both the senate and the house of representatives - the senate is now split 50:50 with a casting vote for Democrat vice-president Kamala Harries - but the Democrats needed 40 million votes more than the Republicans to get their 50 senators!

The system needs a serious overhaul, but will it get one?

(In passing - the UK's first past the post system also needs a serious overhaul, IMO. The Senedd method is more equitable.)
 
 
After the shambolic handling of the pandemic the Sendedd should be scrapped imo
 
You make a good point about PR when it comes to government I'd be for that
Why would you want to scrap the Senedd and transfer the power to Boris who doesn’t care less about Wales. Surely if you think a government has performed poorly the answer is to vote for a change of government and not scrap the whole institution.
who are the options? The heartless torys? The meaningless liberals? The deluded dullards of plaid? No one there id vote for tbh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 2:36pm
Calling what happened in Washington a "coup" is a bit of a joke. You don't get people ambling around a government building wearing Buffalo hats in the real thing. One of my favourite bloggers is an Australian woman, Caitlin Johnstone, married to an American and living in a southern state of the USA. She can describe the "coup" much better than I can, and if you can drag yourselves away from mainstream propaganda for a few minutes she can be read at-
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2021/01/08/stop-trivializing-the-term-coup-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 4:20pm
It wasnt a coup it was a bunch of dangerous idiots who will hopefully be arrested and jailed for the rest of their natural lives... ...But trump being an idiot doesnt automatically make his opponents paragons of virtue...CNN have incited violence themselves throughout his 4 years with the most biased news coverage ever. They almost make fox look fair and balanced lol OK well I wouldnt go that far...

As for globalisation ,which to me means in simple terms massive corporations growing too big and being allowed to move their businesses across borders to avoid taxes and tariffs and paid much lower wages. The rust belt in the US was decimated over decades, much of the route 66 is ghost towns with over 60,000 factories taken overseas. Well obviously when trump targeted globalisation, he was going to get  a ton of opposition from the corporations. Especially those it would hit the most and those that have bought up huge chunks of the news media. His annual tariffs doubled from 40 to 80 billion. I noticed Obama soon cranked up tariffs on chinese steel after trump was ranting about it.

Though the main purpose of tariffs wasnt to increase money for the treasury but to pressurise american companies to stay in america. Either way he ended up with the lowest US unemployment rates in 50 years , wages above inflation, gdp growth of 2.5% and the highest stock market ever. All of which was good news for americans, for pensioners and investors. I did well ok out of it too lol

The criminal justice bitartisan bill was seen as a huge success but the majority of people

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/first-step-act-promised-widespread-reform-what-has-criminal-justice-n1079771

“I think the biggest win is that this is now a safe issue after years and years and years of the two parties trying to use criminal justice as a way to tear each other down,” said Jessica Jackson, co-founder of #cut50, a bipartisan criminal justice reform nonprofit.

However, some are skeptical the alliance can hold. Many of the next steps advocates have underscored as necessary to bring about true change, like reexamining lengthy sentences for violent offenses and restructuring policing practices, may be a tougher sell.

"As some people might say, it's easier to kind of agree on some of the low-hanging fruits, but the higher you reach, the more difficult consensus is going to be,” said Tim Head, the executive director for the Faith & Freedom Coalition, a conservative nonprofit that supports the act as well as other criminal justice reform efforts.

What the First Step Act achieved

More than 3,000 inmates have been released and another roughly 1,700 people convicted of crack cocaine offenses have seen their sentences reduced thanks to the First Step Act, according to data from the Federal Bureau of Prisons and the U.S. Sentencing Commission. Some of that activity stems from a 2011 change made by the federal sentencing commission affecting people convicted of certain drug crimes and a provision of the First Step Act. That provision made the sentencing guidelines of the Obama-era Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 retroactive.

The majority of those released under both acts have been black men, the group which the "war on drugs" campaign of the '70s and '80s effectively targeted.

But the effects of the act's other major provision — the relaxing of the notorious "three strikes" rule to mean a 25-year sentence, rather than life in prison, for three or more convictions — are so far difficult to measure. A year in, little data has been collected around how many people had been sentenced under the new guidelines.

The act also a required the development of a new risk assessment tool that aims to determine which inmates are most likely to re-offend if released and to identify ways to assist those who are released. It was completed in July. Meanwhile, roughly 16,000 federal prisoners have enrolled in drug treatment programs created by the act, according to the Justice Department.

The north koreans havent launched a missile since 2018 and have dismantled some of their arsenal, this has also been virtually ignored by the mainstream media

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/24/north-korea-destroys-nuclear-test-site-as-worlds-media-watches

As for his wall , the US mexico border has been there about 180 yrs and is nearly 2000 miles long. His main problem wasnt the fact the borders needed protecting, but the aggressive ignorant way he spoke about it to stoke up his fanbase, though every president has built borders. In europe they have dismantled all borders but trump would argue this endangers the security of the masses and possibly enhances the threat of terrorism

The irony is that obama deported far more people than trump and all other presidents, both criminal and non criminal , but he was far more polite about it.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/ft_2020-08-20_immigrants_11/

More than anything its trumps handling of covid that saw him off in the end....He simply didnt treat it seriously enough and kept sending out mixed messages.....He wouldnt even wear a mask for ages...Then he allowed massive crowds at his events , no doubt many of them caught it and died. Absolute madness from the man in charge. The deaths continue to mount up to nearly 4000 a day in america and 1000 in the UK. Both nations have found the main vaccines thanks to our ingenious scientists....But our political leaders are so stupid they couldnt even lead by example


Trumps main problem seems to be his big mouth. The man says stupid ignorant things that make his life a living hell. why cant he contain himself? 

Heck maybe its easier to just join the chorus and put trump in the stalls and throw fruit at him than bother looking at the facts and the future. 



Edited by roy munster - 09 January 2021 at 4:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 5:45pm
Trump was crazy but I’d rather that than Biden and his unhealthy closeness with women and children. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Trump was crazy but I’d rather that than Biden and his unhealthy closeness with women and children. 
That the Trump that has 26 women who’ve made allegation of sexual misconduct against him? And also the Trump that said he’d be dating a ten year old girl in ten years’ time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Trump was crazy but I’d rather that than Biden and his unhealthy closeness with women and children. 
That the Trump that has 26 women who’ve made allegation of sexual misconduct against him? And also the Trump that said he’d be dating a ten year old girl in ten years’ time?

he said what? have you got a link to that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Trump was crazy but I’d rather that than Biden and his unhealthy closeness with women and children. 
That the Trump that has 26 women who’ve made allegation of sexual misconduct against him? And also the Trump that said he’d be dating a ten year old girl in ten years’ time?

he said what? have you got a link to that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2021 at 11:50pm
No one can defend these type of idiotic ignorant things he says, as I said earlier Ive no idea why he keeps coming out with these types of comments, absolutely idiotic.

The only points Im making is relating to the debates over government policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2021 at 8:53am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55592332

Here's an interesting piece. If true, where were the security services in monitoring these far right groups??? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2021 at 3:17pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/06/whats-the-scientific-basis-for-delaying-the-covid-vaccine-second-dose


scientists queueing up to say the 12 week pfizer delay is unproven and untested the damn thing may even mutate. The guardian report suggests the govt are also considering mixing and matching the 2 vaccines? so some may get a pfizer jab then 12 weeks later an oxford , this mix and match is also untested and unproven.

why cant these politicians get out of the way and simply leave it to the scientific experts



Edited by roy munster - 10 January 2021 at 3:19pm
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