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Jonathan Davies

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sgsmorgan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I just hope we move away from our current slightly confusing approach to retention and recruitment, and have clarity of mind and purpose when it comes time to sit down with Foxy.

I think that will set the right platform for a good outcome.



Thats where I see it and for a player that is key, also a player who is now about to enter into a vital part of his career. It's all a matter of priorities and for a player who wants to win things then the next two years will be key as on the horizon is the next WC. Now that has to be the ultimate and though Wales have a tough group (thanks Roger) they could still fancy themselves so Foxy like most will want to make sure that he's in tip mtop shape for the next WC and not feeling like flogged and battered horse. So that's perhaps one reason for staying in Wales.

Next up then it's down to hard financials and that's where I said we have to be creative about the package that we put together. There has to be a hardcore good remuneration package from the Scarlets at it's core but then it's down to how we all want to work together to perhaps aid him in endorsements, sponsorships etc that will bring a  Wales based package almost or exceeding a package that he might be able to earn elsewhere and that's key I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:



Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

I personally see him staying. We are targetting the pro12. That is silver wear. We were challenging for it last year but failed in the play offs. But we got to the hunt for silver wear. Players like Foxy are match winners. If you have one in your side...you are lucky, if you have more than one you are extremely lucky (and probably rich).

We have a match winner developed within our region. Grown up within the region. Grown up supporting the region. The signing of John Barclay will show foxy that we are serious when it comes to recruitment. ok, we have failed so far with an 8, but I bet he knows how close we got to Opeti Fonua.

Our pack this season is stronger, more experienced and a year wiser. we have a 10 in priestland who was badly missed last season coming back hungry and fresh - he will be like a new signing. His contract is also up along with Scott. these are the 3 that we simply have to secure.

Foxy loves playing for us as well as Wales. For this reason I see him staying at least until the world cup where he will be looked after by the region.

I may be optimistic but I think we can match his ambitions. He has been to a play off semi with us and lost. Being a scarlet fan I bet winning silver wear with us will be the icing on the cake for him...can we win? Who knows...but can we challenge this year in the league? of course.



I'd be very surprised if we managed to beat the likes of ulster or leinster to silverwear they both have bigger and better squads, glasgow look very strong to and the ashtrays will always be a handful with their pack.

foxy could go to sides like tolouse clermont or leicester where he could earn more money and win domestic and european trophys.

sadly we cant offer him that sort of silverwear, 

I hope your right but from a trophy winning viewpoint he has a lot better options out there


Oh yes I know he could easily go elsewhere. But he says as long as we have ambitions "in the next few years" he is happy to stay. HC has become a tournament for the rich but that may be changed soon with constant doubts for te French.
We can I believe challenge or silverware. Be in the hunt. like we were last year...we are no worse off this season than last season IMO. yes we had lost some familiar names and a world class winger, but we now have a top open side, fresh locks and tighthead, a new born priestland, and kids aching to impress...last time we had youngsters wanting to impress we had a glut coming through- priestland, foxy, Scott, George, etc. let's back these new guns who have done all they can at semi pro level and highly impressed week in out and in the JWC. it's their time to come through now. Jordan, Kyle, Rhodri, Aled etc.

We have got a more competitive squad than people give credit for I feel and I do believe we can match last years efforts if not better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wasp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:07pm
Rabo Final has to be the target this year. Nice to do well in the HC group but we haven't got the depth to fight on two fronts.

Win the Rabo, hopefully attract some more investment and build from there. 

But we must be prepared to break a few rules to keep the Fox
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:14pm
surely this what that extra wru funding is for, keep the big name , ticket selling players here in wales.

over to the board and to the wru to sort this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:15pm
Winning the Rabot would be fantastic result. Getting involved in the HK only brings us grief and demoralisation as we just don't have the depth in the squad and when you add on a few key injuries it really hurts us-guess we just have to get on with it and take the strain!
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tim Opolis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:20pm
When our players get to a certain age and standard the player himself through their agent will want more money. We have a capped budget that has to cover a squad of 45 players. There will come a time when the amount of money we pay them versus the amount of games they play for us becomes untenable.

Under previous regimes we were able to retain someone like Stevo at our region for most of his career but at a great financial loss.

Now we may be able to keep Foxy for a further 2 years if we use our £250,000 from the WRU, but at the end of the day, if Foxy says he wants trophies, and by that he's suggesting the board should invest more in the squad, then that's probably not going to be possible. So if he wants to win a European trophy he might decide to move on on his own accord.

Unless we get our season ticket sales up to the 7,000 mark, or we get a major sponsor or benefactor things arent going to change.

Ive been critical of the board in recent years for a lack of investment in the team. So should they pump money in to get a strong team in the hope that attendances increase? but what do you do if you havent got the money to gamble? Do you try to borrow money like some west wales clubs are doing just in order to pay players in order to have a team, and then run the risk of bankruptcy?

Or do you have a more sensible approach and build gradually and hope that we can attract investors and increase the business to a safe position where we can afford better players?

Either way, we're capped at £3.5 million anyway.

So do you spread the money more evenly accross the whole squad or chuck the majority of it on a couple of players and have a smaller squad, and then run the risk of injuries hurting you big time?

When are people going to realise that its a hell of a job trying to get a competitive squad, on a small budget in an unfriendly rugby calendar and with a union that prevents you from playing your star locally produced talent? North, Lydiate, Roberts have already played, we wont see Foxy for ages.

Its a miracle we're doing as well as we are! And every now and again we still manage to jump up and punch a big a club in the nose. That'll do for me, If we're competitive in the league and win most of our games at home, and at the end of the day Ive got a region to support with a solid future, then heck, I'm chuffed with that.

Whinging about losing the likes of North is futile, even Fenby, he got to a certain age and experience level that equated to a certain salary, now we have an adequate replacement but who can also kick for goal, sorry, but that sounds like good business to me. Losing North is a blow, and I was angry at the time, but in retrospect it was inevitable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:28pm
Brilliant Post Tim Opolis although you will have to keep on repeating at as we all get a bit carried away sometimes on emotional issues re players and things like actually running a sustainable business on a tight budget are overlooked ! Of course,its not like a PC FIFA 14 soccer game where players are fictitious flickering images-the Scarlets players are real and at the end of the day will decide their own futures not what we would like them to think. I would be pleased if we got another couple of years from Foxy at the best price we could sensibly paybut would be realistic if he left and would not blame the club or the player.
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

When our players get to a certain age and standard the player himself through their agent will want more money. We have a capped budget that has to cover a squad of 45 players. There will come a time when the amount of money we pay them versus the amount of games they play for us becomes untenable.

Under previous regimes we were able to retain someone like Stevo at our region for most of his career but at a great financial loss.

Now we may be able to keep Foxy for a further 2 years if we use our £250,000 from the WRU, but at the end of the day, if Foxy says he wants trophies, and by that he's suggesting the board should invest more in the squad, then that's probably not going to be possible. So if he wants to win a European trophy he might decide to move on on his own accord.

Unless we get our season ticket sales up to the 7,000 mark, or we get a major sponsor or benefactor things arent going to change.

Ive been critical of the board in recent years for a lack of investment in the team. So should they pump money in to get a strong team in the hope that attendances increase? but what do you do if you havent got the money to gamble? Do you try to borrow money like some west wales clubs are doing just in order to pay players in order to have a team, and then run the risk of bankruptcy?

Or do you have a more sensible approach and build gradually and hope that we can attract investors and increase the business to a safe position where we can afford better players?

Either way, we're capped at £3.5 million anyway.

So do you spread the money more evenly accross the whole squad or chuck the majority of it on a couple of players and have a smaller squad, and then run the risk of injuries hurting you big time?

When are people going to realise that its a hell of a job trying to get a competitive squad, on a small budget in an unfriendly rugby calendar and with a union that prevents you from playing your star locally produced talent? North, Lydiate, Roberts have already played, we wont see Foxy for ages.

Its a miracle we're doing as well as we are! And every now and again we still manage to jump up and punch a big a club in the nose. That'll do for me, If we're competitive in the league and win most of our games at home, and at the end of the day Ive got a region to support with a solid future, then heck, I'm chuffed with that.

Whinging about losing the likes of North is futile, even Fenby, he got to a certain age and experience level that equated to a certain salary, now we have an adequate replacement but who can also kick for goal, sorry, but that sounds like good business to me. Losing North is a blow, and I was angry at the time, but in retrospect it was inevitable.




Mostly true. The heartbreaking aspect for me is that we used to be competitive and were one of the European heavyweights and not makeweights.
That was in the days of the English club domination when it was them offering silly salaries but we were still able to compete. Regionalisation started the WRUs stranglehold and ultimate starvation of the club game and now we are down there with the Italians and Scots.

A couple of corrections - the capped aspect of our squad is for the 38 HEC maximum and not our full squad. Also, I don't recall reading that the £1M from the union will be split equally so don't expect £250K to spend on Foxy. It will (and rightly should) reflect the number of Lions produced. Remember, we actively told one of ours to move on to another club.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:48pm
Wether he stays or leaves - it will have an effect on the rest of our squad and Region for a while, either way.

If he stays it may persuade the others out of contract this season to stay and may possibly help us attract new signings next year.

If he leaves - depending on how the negotiations and discussions between him, his agent and our board progress, coupled with how he's treated, it may dissuade other players from signing - possibly make them not want anything to do with us.

Could shape our short and medium term success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 4:56pm
Sustainable business guys?

Sorry to sound obtuse, (Tim knows I'm not like that!), but in my humble view what you both are advocating is the diametric opposite of a sustainable business.
In fact, to me the posts suggest an im-perfect understanding of the key characterisitics and workings of any sporting franchise.

Take all the wrappers off and it's an entertainment business.

To be entertaining, first and foremost, you must have a product capable of enteraining (the punters, the media etc)...the rest, like venue, heritage, pricing etc are important of course, but to me totally peripheral to the on field package.

We lose the household names that are associated with us, and at the rate that it has been going, then we stand little chance of attaining anything of note on the pitch, and so will get passed by other regions.. without even realising it we will find oursleves playing in second tier tournaments etc.

Sounds dramatic, but to me that's a perfectly possible outcome if that mantra was applied.

The likes of Foxy are critical to us, to make them sound part of a Trading Profit and Loss account 'casualty' is just totally beyind me.

Remember in all of this all I'm advocating is a flat playing budget.

Right, that's better.




Edited by Wil Chips - 26 August 2013 at 5:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Brain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:01pm
An awful lot depends of what advice he is being given and how much he listens to.

Personally the logical advice would be to stay with Scarlets (if package remains reasonable) for an additional 2 year extension that keeps him in Wales up to and including the 2015 World Cup.
A World Cup that is very winnable for Wales if they can springboard from the last one and live up to what they've been promising for what seems like ages.
Two seasons in Wales would keep him a great deal fresher than playing in England or France, as well as being a lot less hassle for him 'keeping in' with Team Wales commitments etc., of which there should be lots of, what with him being one of the 'big names' from the Lions tour.
If he is interested in his monetary worth, I think he would see it increase dramatically by staying and (hopefully) winning a World Cup.
And if he values the Scarlets for all they've done for him a 2 year extension would still leave a year left for the Club to make a bit of money off him by selling him on.
Being realistic, as much as I'd like to see it, I don't envisage him seeing out the rest of his career here with the likes of the big money Clubs sniffing around.

Or the Club could shown no initiative at all, try and make a quick buck and shift him on sooner rather than later.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:03pm
I think all efforts will be made to retain Jon as emotions are still running on the North saga and from the squads perspective I think it would be very important for them to see Foxy stay so matters stabilise in the club from a players and management perspective. Having said that he is a Lion and a clear target so we must remain sanguine and realistic about his future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:06pm
Iesgyrn Dafydd...sanguine and realistic sounds like your venturing in the world of Quantative easing mun!

We're looking to hold on to our prized assett ...not plot the downfall of the yen!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:06pm
The fact that the WRU have been sufficiently moved to offer the regions an extra £1M towards keeping our Lions shows progress and that the sale of George North (alongside the loss of Lydiate and Roberts) just may be a turning point.

We won't keep them all (but then, there have always been players who go between clubs like a pinball, chasing the dollar - Mike Phillips springs to mind) but if we are able to keep more then let's hope there is further dialogue between the regions and the union.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

When our players get to a certain age and standard the player himself through their agent will want more money. We have a capped budget that has to cover a squad of 45 players. There will come a time when the amount of money we pay them versus the amount of games they play for us becomes untenable.

Under previous regimes we were able to retain someone like Stevo at our region for most of his career but at a great financial loss.

Now we may be able to keep Foxy for a further 2 years if we use our £250,000 from the WRU, but at the end of the day, if Foxy says he wants trophies, and by that he's suggesting the board should invest more in the squad, then that's probably not going to be possible. So if he wants to win a European trophy he might decide to move on on his own accord.

Unless we get our season ticket sales up to the 7,000 mark, or we get a major sponsor or benefactor things arent going to change.

Ive been critical of the board in recent years for a lack of investment in the team. So should they pump money in to get a strong team in the hope that attendances increase? but what do you do if you havent got the money to gamble? Do you try to borrow money like some west wales clubs are doing just in order to pay players in order to have a team, and then run the risk of bankruptcy?

Or do you have a more sensible approach and build gradually and hope that we can attract investors and increase the business to a safe position where we can afford better players?

Either way, we're capped at £3.5 million anyway.

So do you spread the money more evenly accross the whole squad or chuck the majority of it on a couple of players and have a smaller squad, and then run the risk of injuries hurting you big time?

When are people going to realise that its a hell of a job trying to get a competitive squad, on a small budget in an unfriendly rugby calendar and with a union that prevents you from playing your star locally produced talent? North, Lydiate, Roberts have already played, we wont see Foxy for ages.

Its a miracle we're doing as well as we are! And every now and again we still manage to jump up and punch a big a club in the nose. That'll do for me, If we're competitive in the league and win most of our games at home, and at the end of the day Ive got a region to support with a solid future, then heck, I'm chuffed with that.

Whinging about losing the likes of North is futile, even Fenby, he got to a certain age and experience level that equated to a certain salary, now we have an adequate replacement but who can also kick for goal, sorry, but that sounds like good business to me. Losing North is a blow, and I was angry at the time, but in retrospect it was inevitable.



no offence buddy how do you know climo is a adequate replacment for fenby? one was doing very well in a team at the top end of the pro 12 , the other has played semi pro rugby all his life (sometimes at 10)


how many games have you seen him play? because I haven;t seen him play any and up untill he was linked with us i have never even heard of him

it's not like we havent got a history of having some rubbish nwq players (hercus,stuart smith,iongi,marling,eustace etc) most of whom have actually got a better cv that this guy.

you praise the board but this is the same board that didn;t offer fenby a new deal but retained timani

 I do agree with you about our finances but how do you attract major sponsors or increase season ticket sales by constantly selling your best players year on year?

floating fans wont be attracted to a side that doesn;t win anything and has no big names on the books.

what's the answer ? is there one?



Edited by RR1972 - 26 August 2013 at 5:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2013 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Iesgyrn Dafydd...sanguine and realistic sounds like your venturing in the world of Quantative easing mun!

We're looking to hold on to our prized assett ...not plot the downfall of the yen!
I knew becoming a lawyer all those years ago was a mistake-I talk in parables now -cant help it
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