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nuclear defence?

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SA14 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 12:15pm
Other countries have lack of defence? If there was a nuclear war it wouldn't matter one bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Can't say I've seen a better analysis of the current Korean "crisis" than the one shown in the link below, but if the UK and US insist that nuclear weapons are vital for their security and independence, isn't it gross hypocrisy for them to insist that N Korea (which was bombed back to the stone age by America and its allies in the fifties ,losing 20% of it's population and without a building of importance or even hospitals or dams left standing) should not have the means to deter such barbarity. Since the second world war the USA has invaded , bombed or sent proxy terrorists into many weaker countries but it hasn't attacked a nuclear armed country. Simple lesson there I think.
So you think N. Korea's actions are reasonable, measured and not provocative to Japan or South Korea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Can't say I've seen a better analysis of the current Korean "crisis" than the one shown in the link below, but if the UK and US insist that nuclear weapons are vital for their security and independence, isn't it gross hypocrisy for them to insist that N Korea (which was bombed back to the stone age by America and its allies in the fifties ,losing 20% of it's population and without a building of importance or even hospitals or dams left standing) should not have the means to deter such barbarity. Since the second world war the USA has invaded , bombed or sent proxy terrorists into many weaker countries but it hasn't attacked a nuclear armed country. Simple lesson there I think.
So you think N. Korea's actions are reasonable, measured and not provocative to Japan or South Korea?

That is a fair question. I don't think their actions are either reasonable nor measured. However I don't particularly think that the very many military manouvers undertaken by the US backed South Koreans over the years are themselves reasonable or measured. I think Mr Putin has hit the nail on the head by saying that additional sanctions are pointless; the only sensible answer is diplomacy but where that starts with two great diplomats at the helm in Kim & Trump is anyone's guess. 

I am afraid that, in my humble opinion, the stance of the West towards smaller countries' nuclear ambitions is indefensible & totally arrogant & conceited. It is this stance that, more than anything else over the past years, has led to immeasurable conflict, failed regime change & loss of innocent lives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 1:46pm
OAM, In what way are they provocative to anyone? They are defensive.  They make less likely the sort of regime change wars started by the west, and of the type that has destroyed so many countries which did not want neo-conservative policies and US domination imposed on them.
It would still be totally suicidal for N Korea to start wars of aggression, as the USA is looking for any excuse to destroy them. So Japan and S. Korea are safe so long as their US masters don't attack N. Korea. And even if the US government thinks nothing of sacrificing the people of those two countries they will think twice when so many of their overseas bases and possibly even the western seaboard are in range. 

The only reasonable course for peace is total world-wide nuclear disarmament, but Obama , before leaving office, ordered o $400 billion  modernisation of their nuclear arsenal, probably making them smaller and more likely to be used as first strike weapons. The UK is spending £150 billion buying the Trident missile system from the USA which is a vast upgrade on what we have already and is accurate enough to be used as a first strike weapon in an attempt to end Mutually Assured Destruction and destroy any enemy's nukes on the ground - again making war more likely. 


Edited by Ffidel Bennett - 05 September 2017 at 1:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Can't say I've seen a better analysis of the current Korean "crisis" than the one shown in the link below, but if the UK and US insist that nuclear weapons are vital for their security and independence, isn't it gross hypocrisy for them to insist that N Korea (which was bombed back to the stone age by America and its allies in the fifties ,losing 20% of it's population and without a building of importance or even hospitals or dams left standing) should not have the means to deter such barbarity. Since the second world war the USA has invaded , bombed or sent proxy terrorists into many weaker countries but it hasn't attacked a nuclear armed country. Simple lesson there I think.
So you think N. Korea's actions are reasonable, measured and not provocative to Japan or South Korea?

That is a fair question. I don't think their actions are either reasonable nor measured. However I don't particularly think that the very many military manouvers undertaken by the US backed South Koreans over the years are themselves reasonable or measured. I think Mr Putin has hit the nail on the head by saying that additional sanctions are pointless; the only sensible answer is diplomacy but where that starts with two great diplomats at the helm in Kim & Trump is anyone's guess. 

I am afraid that, in my humble opinion, the stance of the West towards smaller countries' nuclear ambitions is indefensible & totally arrogant & conceited. It is this stance that, more than anything else over the past years, has led to immeasurable conflict, failed regime change & loss of innocent lives.
Absolutely. Like many on here I have lost good friends and seen others seriously injured over the behaviour of Western warmongers who feel they can play at being World Police when it suits, albeit their true rational is far more sinister perhaps.
 
And for those reasons it is now a bit rich for the Americans to now question the actions of N Korea when they have so shamelessly interfered in the machinations of sovereign countries over the last 5-60 years in the name of world peace/democracy, call it what you will.
 
However, despite the stench of hypocrisy hanging over the West, you would hope that there still exists some form of safeguard/counter balance that would preclude the absolute moron who is currently running the US from instigating an all out nuclear war. My concern is that those safeguards may not exist in N Korea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 8:03pm
It's a totalitarian state led by an egomaniac with stupid hair surrounded by his army sycophants. Of course the USA shouldn't have nukes.

See what I've done there? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


OAM, In what way are they provocative to anyone? They are defensive.  They make less likely the sort of regime change wars started by the west, and of the type that has destroyed so many countries which did not want neo-conservative policies and US domination imposed on them.
It would still be totally suicidal for N Korea to start wars of aggression, as the USA is looking for any excuse to destroy them. So Japan and S. Korea are safe so long as their US masters don't attack N. Korea. And even if the US government thinks nothing of sacrificing the people of those two countries they will think twice when so many of their overseas bases and possibly even the western seaboard are in range. 

The only reasonable course for peace is total world-wide nuclear disarmament, but Obama , before leaving office, ordered o $400 billion  modernisation of their nuclear arsenal, probably making them smaller and more likely to be used as first strike weapons. The UK is spending £150 billion buying the Trident missile system from the USA which is a vast upgrade on what we have already and is accurate enough to be used as a first strike weapon in an attempt to end Mutually Assured Destruction and destroy any enemy's nukes on the ground - again making war more likely. 


They fire rockets/war heads across mainland Japan and South Korea. That's provocative behaviour. If you think it isn't then there is nothing more to discuss. The fact the US and its allies are war mongers doesn't detract from that behaviour or justify it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2017 at 11:27pm
The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 
550km? Really?
 
Isn't that the same height the tooth fairy orbits the Earth? Come on mun, get real 
 
I am sure that the people of Japan and S Korea will take solace in your comments, despite the rhetoric and military build up/exercises along the Korean border these last few years.
 
Whilst the West and their cronies are fairly despicable in my eyes, you are actually here defending North Korea. That is pretty special.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 

A reconnaissance satellite and intercontinental missile are clearly designed for two different purposes. Simply reverse the situation in your mind: would you honestly have no problem if, say, the US shot an unarmed missile with the capability for a nuclear warhead (and tested a full H-bomb a week later) over another country's airspace and not describe that as an act of aggression? I somehow think you would be pretty strong on the attack. Of course the politics behind it would be different, but it doesn't change what NK actually did and it's no surprise people are pretty jumpy.

Although the discussion on who is/isn't allowed nukes (and who does the allowing) is worth having, North Korea - which is actually a dictatorship - is not somewhere I am comfortable with having and testing full H-bombs but there we go. Your pre-determined agenda and desire to push it as much as you can, as evidenced on many threads on a range of topics on here, has clouded your objectivity in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 8:43am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 

A reconnaissance satellite and intercontinental missile are clearly designed for two different purposes. Simply reverse the situation in your mind: would you honestly have no problem if, say, the US shot an unarmed missile with the capability for a nuclear warhead (and tested a full H-bomb a week later) over another country's airspace and not describe that as an act of aggression? I somehow think you would be pretty strong on the attack. Of course the politics behind it would be different, but it doesn't change what NK actually did and it's no surprise people are pretty jumpy.

Although the discussion on who is/isn't allowed nukes (and who does the allowing) is worth having, North Korea - which is actually a dictatorship - is not somewhere I am comfortable with having and testing full H-bombs but there we go. Your pre-determined agenda and desire to push it as much as you can, as evidenced on many threads on a range of topics on here, has clouded your objectivity in my opinion.
His virulent anti western rhetoric has clouded his judgement on something that is indefensible under any circumstances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 9:47am
Surely we are all agreed that NK's actions are not acceptable in a civilised World. However we must not forget the US build up of forces and weaponry that has taken place over many years in the area. They may try to portray it as supporting a small regime against an aggressive neighbour but nobody really believes that do they?

If Korea was not located in what the US see as a crucial strategic area they wouldn't give it a 2nd thought. The Chinese, the nearest super power to Korea, are very nervous about the US plans for the area and given a straight choice between Kim & Trump I certainly won't be taking bets. Putin again is talking sense - we must somehow get around a table and de-escalate the tensions or some small mistake/over reaction could have terrible consequences for - yes you've guessed it - totally innocent people. The total inability of Western diplomats to find a way to get to talking is baffling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 10:37am
The world is a effectively a game of Risk where the players are Russia, USA and China.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 
550km? Really?
 
Isn't that the same height the tooth fairy orbits the Earth? Come on mun, get real 
 
I am sure that the people of Japan and S Korea will take solace in your comments, despite the rhetoric and military build up/exercises along the Korean border these last few years.
 
Whilst the West and their cronies are fairly despicable in my eyes, you are actually here defending North Korea. That is pretty special.

Many apologies OAM . You are right again the missile didn't reach 550km in height. The actual height of the missile, given by the extreme anti - American CBS news was 341 miles which is only 548.7863 km It also shows the path of the missile which was far  to the north of the main island. 

If I think a country being attacked by a hypocritical and morally indefensible imperialist power is doing no wrong, then I hope that I have the guts to defend it especially when the overwhelming media propaganda takes the side of the bully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

The missiles are not armed, the warheads are tested underground. I believe that the latest missile went over Japan at a height of 550km and in a trajectory that made it obvious that it wasn't an attack. Military satellites regularly orbit "enemy countries" at heights of less than 200km. 
550km? Really?
 
Isn't that the same height the tooth fairy orbits the Earth? Come on mun, get real 
 
I am sure that the people of Japan and S Korea will take solace in your comments, despite the rhetoric and military build up/exercises along the Korean border these last few years.
 
Whilst the West and their cronies are fairly despicable in my eyes, you are actually here defending North Korea. That is pretty special.

Many apologies OAM . You are right again the missile didn't reach 550km in height. The actual height of the missile, given by the extreme anti - American CBS news was 341 miles which is only 548.7863 km It also shows the path of the missile which was far  to the north of the main island. 

If I think a country being attacked by a hypocritical and morally indefensible imperialist power is doing no wrong, then I hope that I have the guts to defend it especially when the overwhelming media propaganda takes the side of the bully.
Are you making this up? The Karman line identifies the edge of space. Which is 61 miles above earth. Japanese airspace does not extend that far I would suggest. So whilst that rocket has the potential for flights of that height (and more) and may have reached it on that flight, I doubt that it passing at such a height was Japan's concern. Certainly, in the context of talk of such missiles being shot down, a considerably lower trajectory would be required. Do you agree? And given that this appears an on-going course of tests by N. Korea, personally, I can see why Japan, South Korea and perhaps many others are somewhat concerned.
 
And whilst many of us would agree that the West is riddled with hypocrisy, self interest and some of the greatest war mongers of all time, it is probably still less despicable than the regime you are now defending for trying to manufacture a weapon which they are willing to threaten the civilised world with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2017 at 12:13pm
OAM you can check the height of the missile over Japanese territory. I'm certainly not making it up. As you say it did not violate Japanese airspace and was beyond the range of US anti-missile systems on the island.
N. Korea has not threatened the civilized world. They have just made it clear that they now have the means to retaliate if the USA attacks them.
I find your equating the civilised world with the USA quite amusing, as would, in all probability most Japanese whose undefended cities were atom-bombed by these sensitive and civilised war mongers while they were negotiating surrender terms in 1945.
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