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NZ V France

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Mrfwon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrfwon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2018 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

They've been getting away with it for years. Filise got a red card and 3 week ban for this:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/status/936692944714846214


But they get a Penalty:





It's not just this game v France. They get away with murder.

Remember Tomas Francis got (probably deservedly) a ban for this?




Owe Franks got nothing for this:



Andrew Hoare missed 2 games for his assault on Bradely Davies:



I think people are just getting really fed up of it.


Absolutely, fed up is an understatement! It's pissing everyone off to be honest!
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John View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 9:10am
To add insult to injury, the French have had an early red card today for taking out a player in the air.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 10:31am
french fought hard for over an hour with 14 to be fair.

Another card (or the colour of it) that will provoke debate that will overshadow the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 10:55am
Are they the best because they're not punished or not punished because they're the best? Probably both. As Warburton says in that article, they play very hard and are ferocious but I've always wondered if part of their game is to put opposition players out of the game with said hard play. That they never seem to get much punishment for it means they'll keep on. 

Rugby simply has to sort out no arms tackles. Yes, the French guy was falling into the tackle and the original stance of the Kiwi seemed reasonable, but then he went shoulder first into the guy's head.


Edited by dr_martinov - 16 June 2018 at 11:01am
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PE SA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 11:27am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Are they the best because they're not punished or not punished because they're the best? Probably both. As Warburton says in that article, they play very hard and are ferocious but I've always wondered if part of their game is to put opposition players out of the game with said hard play. That they never seem to get much punishment for it means they'll keep on. 

Rugby simply has to sort out no arms tackles. Yes, the French guy was falling into the tackle and the original stance of the Kiwi seemed reasonable, but then he went shoulder first into the guy's head.

but then the other side, their skill level is far higher than anyone else and they seem to have an abundance of strength in depth. and when theres a slight chance to score, more often than not, they will score. thats how they are the best IMO. Never say die attitude. Never give up attitude. Losing not an option attitude. They are never pleased with losing to any side, no matter how hard they played, how well they played, how close they came...thats the difference between them and many other sides - esepecially Wales. Wales will say things like we did well, we were close, plenty of positives etc....New Zealand will say we lost, not good enough, how well we played doesnt matter as we lost. Its attitude as well as ability. They train rugby, for years, Northern Hem sides became obsessed with the gym. now, closer to home, look at Scarlets. new players coming in cant get over how much work we do WITH a rugby ball (since stevo came in). mind boggling. They do a lot of ball work and it is paying off. The game a year or two ago, Wales v New Zealand, I was watching both sides in warm up. Wales doing sprints, hits, hookers throwing and aiming at the posts, kickers kicking, and some general drills. All Blacks...they were doing ball handling skills. quick hands. but with a tennis ball.  

Whilst there are decisions that go their way, a farce what is happenned recently, but, they are clinical in attack. For example, v Wales, a year or two ago, Wales were camped on their try line for about 35 mins of the first half and could not score. All Black had 2 opportunities - scored 2 tries. Nothing to do with punishment or lack of.

But as for the part in bold, you do see the better teams winning those 50/50 calls. Even scarlets have had a few calls go our way when they shouldnt have since being champions. not that I am saying that hit is a 50/50 call but you get what I mean. Extremely poor officiating - as for the citing commisioner he should hang his head in shame.
The red today, its the way the game is. touch a player in the air, its a red...we know that all too well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Are they the best because they're not punished or not punished because they're the best? Probably both. As Warburton says in that article, they play very hard and are ferocious but I've always wondered if part of their game is to put opposition players out of the game with said hard play. That they never seem to get much punishment for it means they'll keep on. 

Rugby simply has to sort out no arms tackles. Yes, the French guy was falling into the tackle and the original stance of the Kiwi seemed reasonable, but then he went shoulder first into the guy's head.

but then the other side, their skill level is far higher than anyone else and they seem to have an abundance of strength in depth. and when theres a slight chance to score, more often than not, they will score. thats how they are the best IMO. Never say die attitude. Never give up attitude. Losing not an option attitude. They are never pleased with losing to any side, no matter how hard they played, how well they played, how close they came...thats the difference between them and many other sides - esepecially Wales. Wales will say things like we did well, we were close, plenty of positives etc....New Zealand will say we lost, not good enough, how well we played doesnt matter as we lost. Its attitude as well as ability. They train rugby, for years, Northern Hem sides became obsessed with the gym. now, closer to home, look at Scarlets. new players coming in cant get over how much work we do WITH a rugby ball (since stevo came in). mind boggling. They do a lot of ball work and it is paying off. The game a year or two ago, Wales v New Zealand, I was watching both sides in warm up. Wales doing sprints, hits, hookers throwing and aiming at the posts, kickers kicking, and some general drills. All Blacks...they were doing ball handling skills. quick hands. but with a tennis ball.  

Whilst there are decisions that go their way, a farce what is happenned recently, but, they are clinical in attack. For example, v Wales, a year or two ago, Wales were camped on their try line for about 35 mins of the first half and could not score. All Black had 2 opportunities - scored 2 tries. Nothing to do with punishment or lack of.

But as for the part in bold, you do see the better teams winning those 50/50 calls. Even scarlets have had a few calls go our way when they shouldnt have since being champions. not that I am saying that hit is a 50/50 call but you get what I mean. Extremely poor officiating - as for the citing commisioner he should hang his head in shame.
The red today, its the way the game is. touch a player in the air, its a red...we know that all too well.



Except of course if you're a baby AB taking out a Welshman in the air in the U20 RWC !!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2018 at 2:46pm
In today's match you could hardly claim that the All Blacks skill level was far higher than that of the French. Moreover the pace and power of the French was superior. I think the French could easily have won if it wasn't for that early red card.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turkpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2018 at 1:42pm
Sean Fitzpatrick once said "The better we get the luckier we get".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2018 at 2:25pm
Didn't see the game, but have seen the red card.

Even Hansen (the ABs coach) felt it was harsh, and called for rugby to introduce a RL-style 'on report' system to deal with difficult decisions like this one - quite a good idea, I think.

What Fall did was similar to Steff's red card - he was looking at the ball ALL THE TIME, and was not aware of the AB's position. It wasn't deliberate, as Hansen said. A debate elsewhere has said that since there are concerns about player safety if they jump high (or are lifted in the line-outs), maybe jumping in free play or lifting in line-outs should be banned... an interesting idea...not sure what to think of that, but lifting in lineouts was not allowed back in the day, so banning that would certainly have a precedent and make line-outs safer... it would bring back demands on the athleticism (and, I suppose, height) of the players. Delme used to do his own jumping, and pretty effective it was, too!

As for jumping in free play - as far as I know, it's always been allowed - except for jumping into a tackle, as they do in American football. Given the height players get nowadays, and the speed they go into collision, it might be worth considering. I'm not sure.

Still feel that last week's shoulder to the head was as clear a red as you'd want to see, whereas today's was a 'ref's call' one.


Edited by aber-fan - 17 June 2018 at 2:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2018 at 6:02pm
Rugby has to return to intent-based disciplining (actually not sure if intent was ever actually mentioned within the laws of the game but that would be what I'd advocate for).
Rugby is a contact game you will never make it injury free. If someone wants to clatter someone round the neck, then red. If someone slips up making a tackle, it should be a penalty. Etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich (Bris) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2018 at 10:17pm
The problem with banning jumping in open play is that it would prevent smaller players from using they're athleticism to get up higher than the taller players - if you're banned jumping then the taller player would always get the ball and we'd have lots more Kicks and very tall wingers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

The problem with banning jumping in open play is that it would prevent smaller players from using they're athleticism to get up higher than the taller players - if you're banned jumping then the taller player would always get the ball and we'd have lots more Kicks and very tall wingers.

Yes indeed - it all depends on how many serious injuries occur as a result of this, IMO... it would be a pity to ban it... but if they don't ban it, they ought to allow the ref some discretion regarding intent, as Sospan says.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 9:53am
Red card rescinded by World Rugby, as the French player was
"looking at the ball".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 11:01am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Red card rescinded by World Rugby, as the French player was
"looking at the ball".
 

Pity that they couldn't have had someone with the authority to say that at the match or at least rescind it to a yellow. As it was that early red ruined the match as a fair competition.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich (Bris) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Red card rescinded by World Rugby, as the French player was
"looking at the ball".
 

Pity that they couldn't have had someone with the authority to say that at the match or at least rescind it to a yellow. As it was that early red ruined the match as a fair competition.  


I think from reading the statement by the panel that it was not the case that it was rescinded because he always had his eyes on the ball (but that helped his case) - key bit states : 'In our opinion the direct and proximate cause for that outcome [that being him bashing into Barrett] was the result of the player's collision with New Zealand number 13. As a result [of that collision - which was not his fault] the player was denied the time (less than a second) and the space to put himself in a position to avoid collision with New Zealand number 10 or to contest the ball as he had originally planned' - so I guess he told them he had planned to leap to catch it but the collision with Lienert-Brown meant .........

If it was just about keeping eyes on the ball then a lot of the recent sending offs would/should have been rescinded. That said I think there is a bit of a change taking place with the feeling that the current rulings are too harsh on players who keep eyes on ball and would have been in a perfect position to catch the ball had the opposition player not jumped into the air and into them. But whether they will change it ? There have been less sending offs this season for sure and it has also led to less up and unders so that's got to be good news.

I agree it would be good in theory in those situations to have the player off the pitch until it has been checked by someone in authority (like I believe they did in League)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 4:39pm
So the French player’s field of vision didn’t reach as far as a guy in black coming towards him?
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