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Officially in transitional phase

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Chesswithdeath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chesswithdeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 11:58am
Feel free S.P., it's never stopped you before. I find many of your points interesting to say the least!
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SA14 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 12:05pm
i always keep that little saying at the back of my mind,  'you can't win 'em all'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yedarts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by s.pimpernel s.pimpernel wrote:

I have to say that I am disappointed this thread hasn`t gone any further.

Has it got to the stage on this board that people are now afraid of giving their opinions.



Its like a communist dictatorship on here sometimes. Question GJ or state your opinion on members of the team and you get sent to the Metaphorical gulag.

Just remember...

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.


Edited by yedarts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chesswithdeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 12:29pm

Yedarts - I take that as an insult - this is an UNOFFICIAL forum, just because people disagree with you, it doesnt mean they are somehow in the back pocket of Big Brother. A lot of people have put a lot of time and effort to get this forum off the ground.

Please address any personal problems you have with the way this site is run to me via PM.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chesswithdeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 12:29pm
For the meantime, lets concentrate on the rugby please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chesswithdeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 12:33pm

Yedarts - I take that as an insult - this is an UNOFFICIAL forum, just because people disagree with you, it doesnt mean they are somehow in the back pocket of Big Brother. A lot of people have put a lot of time and effort to get this forum off the ground.

Please address any personal problems you have with the way this site is run to me via PM.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sospanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 1:55pm

Quality thread from Mike and good points from SP.

This is an attempt at optimism.

Looking at the statistics of the last 2 defeats, we have had a fair share of both territory (though here we were outmanouvered by excellent tactical kicking that was well executed by the Ospreys) and possession. The forwards have secured ball only to lose it again. If these handling skills could be sorted and worked on then that is going to bring significant improvement. The link between forwards and backs must be smooth, streamlined and executed at pace. Here we have been stuttering.

I also think we desperately need a playmaker in the backs who is lightning off the mark and has vision (A Shane Williams like player who could operate in little space and come up with the unpredictable - this would terrify opposition). I had thought that Watkins could be this player, but so far this season he looks a shadow of the prospect he was. Maybe Tal could be successful in this role.

Barry's kicking out of hand has gone off the boil. Why is this? Is it lack of practice in training. We know he's capable of putting terrific kicks in, but he's not delivering at the present.

Ymlaen Llanelli Scarlets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 1:58pm
Watkins hasn't shown last season's form purely because he hasn't had any ball.  The ball just isn't being released to the backs, and that's not having a pop at the forwards.  We've won some ball but we seem to be losing it far too much in contact.  Everything is so static, we need to get some pace into things, speed things up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yedarts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Chesswithdeath Chesswithdeath wrote:

Yedarts - I take that as an insult -


Well you needn't.

Originally posted by Chesswithdeath Chesswithdeath wrote:

this is an UNOFFICIAL forum, just because people disagree with you, it doesnt mean they are somehow in the back pocket of Big Brother. A lot of people have put a lot of time and effort to get this forum off the ground.


I meant nothing against those running the forum. I am very grateful for the hard work thats put in by those who setup and administer the site.

Originally posted by Chesswithdeath Chesswithdeath wrote:

Please address any personal problems you have with the way this site is run to me via PM.

As I said. No problems with the running of the forum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ursamajor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by yedarts yedarts wrote:


Its like a communist dictatorship on here sometimes. Question GJ or state your opinion on members of the team and you get sent to the Metaphorical gulag.

Just remember...

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.



Bit harsh there yedarts? If people jump down your throat it tends to be other forum members, not admins.

I like the idea of a metaphorical gulag though.. a new section perhaps?

(Edit: Typing at the same time yedarts. Point taken.)



Edited by ursamajor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ursamajor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 3:35pm
Oh and Mike and SP, top posts, by the way..
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Mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by s.pimpernel s.pimpernel wrote:

So, poor recruitment, over-dependence on certain players and a fall in the quality of our game. Do these points refer to one person perhaps??

Not one person, no. Poor recruitment = financial restraints. Over-dependance on certain players = Gareth takes responsibility for this, yes. Fall in quality = variety of reasons as I said. GJ has made some mistake though, sure.

Originally posted by SP SP wrote:

I called for GJs head after the Cardiff debacle. I don`t regret it and if I remember rightly, quite a few others did as well ( even Phil Bennet). I also questioned after our loss to Biaritz if he could no longer motivate the team. Again, I had a monumental ***ging on this board but again I stand by my views.

So a trophy per season since since you wanted him out and you don't think you were wrong to want him out then? (you question him after every loss by the way)

Originally posted by SP SP wrote:

As Mike rightly points out, since that Cardiff game he has delivered 3 trophies. But, IMO, our game has gone backwards and again IMO, we are currently playing a brand of rugby that is stale, predictable, highly defendable and worst of all boring. Mr. Scarlets has got his team playing the most un-Scarlet rugby I have witnessed.

Winning rugby at the time though. The dominant sides Europe-wide were playing the same style e.g. Munster and Leicester. We were easily amongst the top 4 in Europe during this period despite our lesser resources - success is more important than style I'm sure you agree.

I do think, however, that GJ needs to look at playing resources now and find a new approach that reflects the nature of the squad and gets the best out of them. The writing was on the wall after Biarritz and chickens have come home to roost this season I agree. [/quote]

Originally posted by SP SP wrote:

Mike says we were a cross bar away from getting to a Heineken final. Whereas this fact is true, it hides the fact that we never scored a try or looked like scoring a try in over 240 minutes of rugby. That was Tigers at home, Bath away and Tigers again. We slogged away up front but never once laid any sort of platform for our backs...........and this from a coach who produced a squad in 92-93 that played the best rugby I have ever seen played and that includes International teams as well. If we had scored tries then we wouldn`t be relying on bloody crossbars and last minute penalties all the time.

Leicester only managed 1 fortunate try in three games against us - they won two Heineken Cups and dominated the domestic scene in England during this period. At the time, this was the style of rugby that was getting results. The lack of tries was more to do (IMO) with being just short of a real star three quarter.

Comparing it to 92/93 doesn't serve your argument - watch the SF DVD again - rugby union eleven years ago was unrecognisable to what it is today.

Originally posted by SP SP wrote:

The number of games where the Scarlets fail to turn up is also beginning to stay in the memory longer than memorable performances. Saints away and Leinster at home last season were the only memorable highs IMO.

However, anyone care to remember the two home Heineken cup losses against Perpignan and Biaritz, the home Celtic Cup loss to Connaught, the cup final defeat against Ponty a few seasons ago. We will lose games but these losses all had the hallmarks of a team that was not up for it, a team that wasn`t prepared. A team that was out-thought on the day and had no plan B to fall back on.

Every team "fails to turn up" for some games during the season. After three years of consecutive silverware and a Celtic League Title last season, I think your point here doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny. I wouldn't quote Perpignan either - we lost that game because we had a player sent off after five minutes of the game. No team would win a game with 14 men for 80 minutes against a team who contested the HC Final.

Originally posted by SP SP wrote:

So is GJ a bad coach. No he isn`t. But as Stuart Barnes pointed out last season ( and quite rightly so ) he has playing a brand of rugby that is negative. We have good backs and when we play fast and wide no one can touch us. So why the dependence on Quinell and the up the jumper tactics. OK it was useful in certain games but not week in and week out. Gareth wants teams to entertain but he has us playing a brand of rugby which is highly un-entertaining.

Lastly, is he the coach to lead us forward through a re-building process? The real question is how patient will the fans be. People love to have ago at me but let me remind some of you that when the treble winning side of 92-93 broke up, we didn`t win anything for 4 seasons. We didn`t win a championship for 9 years ( do you count the rebel season of 98-99). He can also no longer rely on a Welsh cup victory to raise morale amongst the team and fans. As Mike rightly says, I fear there will be lean years ahead.

Overall I would stick with GJ for the moment but lets have him back as a coach and not that high and mighty, self important title of "Director of Rugby". Get him to concentrate on the team and lets get back to playing a brand of rugby that is entertaining but effective, that is powerful up front and elegant behind.

Lets get back to Scarlet rugby please Gareth

Personally I am far more concerned with success over style. Be nice to have both, but we're living in professional times where the costs of no success are higher than ever.

I stick by my opinion that GJ is the best man for the job - and anyway - now is definitely not the best time to replace him. GJ's time will eventually come at Stradey of course and when it does I personally would live to see Phil Davies come back as coach.

 

ps - I can safely say that your post was one of your most well balanced and reasoned in years of reading your comments



Edited by Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s.pimpernel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

 Not one person, no. Poor recruitment = financial restraints. Over-dependance on certain players = Gareth takes responsibility for this, yes. Fall in quality = variety of reasons as I said. GJ has made some mistake though, sure.

Not all financial restraints. The signing of Delme was exceptionally poor and ensured the squad was a player short from the off.

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

 So a trophy per season since since you wanted him out and you don't think you were wrong to want him out then? (you question him after every loss by the way).

No, I stand by my decision. I don`t question him after every result but I don`t go along with the view that just because he is GJ that he isn`t accountable. He`s certainly not accountable to anyone at the club. Great position to be in that isn`t it.

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Winning rugby at the time though. The dominant sides Europe-wide were playing the same style e.g. Munster and Leicester. We were easily amongst the top 4 in Europe during this period despite our lesser resources - success is more important than style I'm sure you agree.

I do think, however, that GJ needs to look at playing resources now and find a new approach that reflects the nature of the squad and gets the best out of them. The writing was on the wall after Biarritz and chickens have come home to roost this season I agree.

 

I don`t think we had lesser resources, well not as far as the 15 that were on the pitch. Remember, GJ has built the strongest squad ever seen at Stradey Park and was putting out a team where nearly every player was an international. Thats not lesser resources in my book. Maybe off the pitch but certainly not on it.

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Leicester only managed 1 fortunate try in three games against us - they won two Heineken Cups and dominated the domestic scene in England during this period. At the time, this was the style of rugby that was getting results. The lack of tries was more to do (IMO) with being just short of a real star three quarter.

Comparing it to 92/93 doesn't serve your argument - watch the SF DVD again - rugby union eleven years ago was unrecognisable to what it is today.

Leicester did only score 1 try against us and I agree that this form of rugby was effective to a point, but crowds pay to watch tries. Tries win games. Its when this style doesn`t produce results that it becomes boring and predictable and is not a crowd pleaser.......ask Dean Richards.

As far as 92-93 goes, it just illustrates that GJ is capable of getting success by playing running rugby. Gareth was an innovator but hes become a copier. The phrase Graham Henry used to use was "be bold".

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Every team "fails to turn up" for some games during the season. After three years of consecutive silverware and a Celtic League Title last season, I think your point here doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny. I wouldn't quote Perpignan either - we lost that game because we had a player sent off after five minutes of the game. No team would win a game with 14 men for 80 minutes against a team who contested the HC Final.

Totally disagree with you on this point. We still should have beaten Perpignan even with 14 players. We played to a plan that relied on the other team giving away penalties which Perpignan didn`t do. Hardly exciting and innovative was it?  Gareths plan B is to make about 5 substitutions. What we needed ( and still need) is a playmaker at OH. For all his pluses, SJ was never a playmaker.[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Personally I am far more concerned with success over style. Be nice to have both, but we're living in professional times where the costs of no success are higher than ever.

I stick by my opinion that GJ is the best man for the job - and anyway - now is definitely not the best time to replace him. GJ's time will eventually come at Stradey of course and when it does I personally would live to see Phil Davies come back as coach.

And it is now we will see how good GJ is and if he was up to the task of managing the International side. There were signs last season that the presure is telling. Who can forget his Kevin Keeganesque rant after being critisised by Stuart Barnes. he certainly didn`t do himself any favours with that little episode and shocked a number of people, myself included. Your right, the cost of success is higher than ever which means he really does have to look at the current style of rugby we play.

Also, as far as everyone conected with the club goes, including GJ himself, everyone thought he had got himself the Welsh job. So who did SG have lined up to replace him?

 

 

ps - I can safely say that your post was one of your most well balanced and reasoned in years of reading your comments

[/QUOTE]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 7:20pm

i've been a strong supporter of gj for a long time and more recently i've criticised his tactics and failure to use the bench when the starting fifteen are not performing. however in his defence he doesn't want to be too harsh in criticising his squad in public, behind closed doors i'm sure is another story. rumour has it he prevented them attending a golf day last week to spend more time doing what they are paid for.

The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 7:28pm

Everyone talks about financial restraints. We had 1.3 million off the wru same as cardiff and they seem to manage to make a few good signings.

What have the LLanelli Scarlets spent their money on?

Through Thick And Thin!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bin laden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2004 at 8:28pm

am at a loss to comprehend what is happening both at stradey and the forum.is september the time of year to sharpen the knives?if we are in the same position at the start of europe then it may be time to question gippo but lets give the players a chance to fight the fight for him,if they fail then maybe it isn't just him we have to question.i want to be positive but find it very difficult at this moment in time.

things must get better,our players are capable of playing at a higher standard than they have attempted during the last two games.

Yes,I am back with a stewards view on things.


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