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Snap General Election

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Printed Date: 17 November 2017 at 11:08pm
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Topic: Snap General Election
Posted By: najbritcol
Subject: Snap General Election
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 12:47pm
What do you think of this? IMO it is a cynical ploy by Theresa May to destroy Labour and to be re elected before the full effects of Brexit are really felt.



Replies:
Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 12:54pm
Theresa May wants to stay in power and will do almost anything to achieve that goal. Personally have no problem with that. If the only thing that was stopping her from calling an election was a promise made to Corbyn she'd have been daft.
On her end it's a clever move, it solves a few problems:
1) There is no real competition to a Tory landslide thanks to Corbyn. Therefore - low risk.
2) It achieves an election before what is likely to be a pretty poor brexit deal lowers public confidence in her.
3) It can stop the line that's trotted out for her so often that she was never officially voted in by the public.

However for us, we get a choice between someone way out of her depth at the top (May), another who couldn't organise a p**s up in a brewery (Corbyn) and a homophobe (Farron). Great fun.


Posted By: redeyes
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

What do you think of this? IMO it is a cynical ploy by Theresa May to destroy Labour and to be re elected before the full effects of Brexit are really felt.

Labour are doing a pretty good job of destroying themselves through inept leadership facilitated by support from the trade unions.


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The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!




Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:26pm
I don't understand why Corbyn gets such a bad press although his anti-rich stance I would hazard a guess annoys quite a few powerful people who happen to be in control of our newspapers and therefore what a lot of the population regurgitate. You read what he actually says and he's very much in favour of workers rights, anti-loveliness, anti-old school lovely politics; things which I thought many would agree with? Yet he has this conception that he would be a disaster if placed in power, in part due to the division in the labour party but also I think the media have a lot to do with it.

It is also not, and should not, be just about the leader of the party - we see what happens in the US when it becomes way too personal.

I can see why May has called it: she wants a bigger majority and not have to deal with her backbenchers during Brexit, which arguably are as big a problem as Labour at the moment. You strike when you think the opportunity is best, as clearly she must do. 

We may have a Tory government for a looooong time I can't help feeling.....


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:51pm
The Media which is extreme Tory and right wing totally control public opinion, The Media were responsible for the result of the Brexit referendum. The Mail, Sun and Express are the worst offenders with the biggest and wildest hysteria headline. Most people don't read beyond the headlines and get their information from them. The country is crying out for a government that can tackle major problems like NHS, Poverty, Care in the Community, Defence, Education and the like. All they ever do is move the deckchairs around and apply loads of sticking plaster to problems. Also the First Past the Post election method no longer serves the electorate, time to change and join the 21st century.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The Media which is extreme Tory and right wing totally control public opinion, The Media were responsible for the result of the Brexit referendum. The Mail, Sun and Express are the worst offenders with the biggest and wildest hysteria headline. Most people don't read beyond the headlines and get their information from them. The country is crying out for a government that can tackle major problems like NHS, Poverty, Care in the Community, Defence, Education and the like. All they ever do is move the deckchairs around and apply loads of sticking plaster to problems. Also the First Past the Post election method no longer serves the electorate, time to change and join the 21st century.

Left wing papers like the gUardian helped with brexit, also the left wing bbc

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: najbritcol
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The Media which is extreme Tory and right wing totally control public opinion, The Media were responsible for the result of the Brexit referendum. The Mail, Sun and Express are the worst offenders with the biggest and wildest hysteria headline. Most people don't read beyond the headlines and get their information from them. The country is crying out for a government that can tackle major problems like NHS, Poverty, Care in the Community, Defence, Education and the like. All they ever do is move the deckchairs around and apply loads of sticking plaster to problems. Also the First Past the Post election method no longer serves the electorate, time to change and join the 21st century.


Excellent post.


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 2:19pm
Could have some interesting editorials from the Evening Standard in the run-up....

Sorry for bringing the media up; they're just so influential in our politics! Who do people generally want in power, their MP, the government? No judgement from me: I am expecting a Tory victory and suspect the majority view TM and mates as a safe pair of hands to negotiate the choppy waters of Brexit. Be interesting to see if Labour lose more seats in Wales again. Oxford East has been Labour for ages and is a good seat for a new candidate as the current MP is not re-standing.

Or are you just sick of politics and elections? Post-Brexit and Trump I am pretty disillusioned by it all in truth and I though Brexit had some nasty stuff on both sides of the debate.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The Media which is extreme Tory and right wing totally control public opinion, The Media were responsible for the result of the Brexit referendum. The Mail, Sun and Express are the worst offenders with the biggest and wildest hysteria headline. Most people don't read beyond the headlines and get their information from them. The country is crying out for a government that can tackle major problems like NHS, Poverty, Care in the Community, Defence, Education and the like. All they ever do is move the deckchairs around and apply loads of sticking plaster to problems. Also the First Past the Post election method no longer serves the electorate, time to change and join the 21st century.

Left wing papers like the gUardian helped with brexit, also the left wing bbc

How so? By trying to give a balanced view, as opposed to the hysterical pro-Brexit propaganda of the right-wing press? (Does anyone still remember the crazy stories these papers made up? I remember one of them claimed that 'Brussels is set to ban British pickled onions' once, FFS!). 

You do have a sort of point - the Beeb fell into a trap of 'balance' which allowed statements signed by dozens of Nobel laureates, or hundreds of economists, explaining exactly why Brexit would be a disaster to be cancelled out by a few minutes of hysteria from clowns like Farage, Boris or Carswell. This, surely, is not what 'balance' should look like - if it was, every Brian Cox programme should be balanced by equal time for the Flat Earth Society!


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The Media which is extreme Tory and right wing totally control public opinion, The Media were responsible for the result of the Brexit referendum. The Mail, Sun and Express are the worst offenders with the biggest and wildest hysteria headline. Most people don't read beyond the headlines and get their information from them. The country is crying out for a government that can tackle major problems like NHS, Poverty, Care in the Community, Defence, Education and the like. All they ever do is move the deckchairs around and apply loads of sticking plaster to problems. Also the First Past the Post election method no longer serves the electorate, time to change and join the 21st century.

I do feel that Labour (and other parties) should call out these papers, as they are never going to get anything like a fair deal from them.

It's shocking that most of our newspapers (who undoubtedly will back May) are owned by TAX DODGING EXPATRIATES:

Mail titles: Lord Rothermere, non-dom for tax, 'lives' in Monte Carlo (when not in London!)

Sun, Times, Sunday Times: Rupert Murdoch, one-time Aussie, now USA citizen - not a UK taxpayer

Telegraph titles: Barclay brothers - own a channel island to avoid paying tax (the Wikipedia entry is a bit too 'balanced' for my taste, but still illuminating). 

As always, 'Private Eye' has consistently exposed these shysters over many years.

I have reservations about Corbyn, but the Tories are so deep in the pockets of these crooks (so was Blair, of course) that you can't even see their hairlines. No doubt they'll go on celebrating their unholy alliance, unless a deal can be reached by other parties to turf out these crooks.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 2:45pm
Papers burn easily.....


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 3:26pm
What about these papers the guardian, the mirror , the independent

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 3:46pm
Clearly she expects to increase her majority and was looking a little smug yesterday. I was surprised as they have a  20% lead so she could have coasted for a few years. However she claims its simply being called so she can have a clear mandate and majority to then go into negotiations with the EU with a stronger hand. Whether this is opportunistic or not, its put the heat on everyone else to put their cards on the table and offer alternative policies to the tories.

The libs may pilfer a few votes from hard line bremainers, plaed may pick up bremainers but probably wont move much, UKIP? Well without farage and now this unimpressive scouser in charge may gain a few from those who want a hard brexit, but lose a few percent to the tories too...Labour? Well theyre in the middle on europe , they say theyre fighting for the best brexit deal (softer brexit not sure what hard or soft actually mean exactly) 

Corbyn needs to convince on the economy more than anything else. With a strong balanced economy all his wishes to fund the public services and nhs better etc etc can only come true with a strong economy. Clearly the tories will serve their own, the elite 1%. They allow some of it to trickle down. Corbyn has 7 weeks to lay out a masterplan for leading the country. An industrial strategy would be a good place to start, followed by a chat about clause 4 then lowering VAT (That is a major issue he can point out major tory hypocrisy here... labour are LOWERING this tax on the masses, whereas the tories always RAISE this tax on the masses), raising the top end tax another, offering help for SME's (totally absent under the last labour government) He needs to recognise the EU's ass of burocratic rules and regulations simply emboldens corporations and wipes out the SME's ability to compete. There needs to be far different regulations for massive companies as opposed to small ones.... 

Also drawing attention to the mega cheap sale of public land and draw attention to local government waste. He needs to also bring up the GP doctors contract labour gave the doctors in 2004 that allowed 90% of all doctors to opt OUT of out of hours work....That has created chaos, he needs to scrap it...He also needs to lay out a comprehensive strategy for allowing a healthier competitive economy and bring back the monopolies and mergers commission. That is now defunct and in its absence we've seen the obscene corporate take overs and megabank takeovers most of which ended in catastrophe. He can also underline the fact he was against the Iraq war. I expect labour will lose heavily but I really hope he and labour can make the best of this opportunity to re-find their identity, hold the government to account and make the best of a difficult situation. Simply being angry at the greedy tories will only appeal the the members....the country at large wants and needs to know labours masterplan and that lessons from blairs lot have been learned


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: PearlJam
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Sun, Times, Sunday Times: Rupert Murdoch, one-time Aussie, now USA citizen - not a UK taxpayer

Telegraph titles: Barclay brothers - own a channel island to avoid paying tax (the Wikipedia entry is a bit too 'balanced' for my taste, but still illuminating).

Regardless, The Times is a balanced, centrist paper which opposed Brexit (even when it's proprietor championed it). The editorial direction clearly doesn't pander to Murdoch which makes it odds with the Sun, Sky or Fox News.




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If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.


Posted By: PearlJam
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Or are you just sick of politics and elections? Post-Brexit and Trump I am pretty disillusioned by it all in truth and I though Brexit had some nasty stuff on both sides of the debate.

What I'm sick of is the Tory party attitude that debate needs to be silenced and we all need to "muck in" behind Brexit "in the national interest". Theresa May dislikes debate (no parliament input on the final Brexit terms and now she's pushed a snap election while the opposition is at it's weakest to get a mandate and a majority to push through extreme Tory policies) and is probably the most authoritarian politician of our generation. 

This is the loudest, silent coup I've known. It has echos of Erdowan in Turkey and her embarrassing Minister's (Johnson's failures on Syria and Truss miserable support for the "enemies of the people" / Judges during the Brexit High Court ruling) are bordering on incompetent.

You've got to hope Corbyn can pull it out of the bag. I usually vote Lib Dem, but we've got a Labour candidate (Paul Flynn) who could hold his seat so he'll get my vote. For those opposed to Brexit and a corrupt Tory government, tactical voting is the order of the day.

It can't be more of a disaster than the 2015 election, Brexit and Trump can it...? 




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If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Or are you just sick of politics and elections? Post-Brexit and Trump I am pretty disillusioned by it all in truth and I though Brexit had some nasty stuff on both sides of the debate.




What I'm sick of is the Tory party attitude that debate needs to be silenced and we all need to "muck in" behind Brexit "in the national interest". Theresa May dislikes debate (no parliament input on the final Brexit terms and now she's pushed a snap election while the opposition is at it's weakest to get a mandate and a majority to push through extreme Tory policies) and is probably the most authoritarian politician of our generation.ย 

This is the loudest, silent coup I've known. It has echos of Erdowan in Turkey and her embarrassing Minister's (Johnson's failures on Syria and Truss miserable support for the "enemies of the people" / Judges during the Brexit High Court ruling) are bordering on incompetent.

You've got to hope Corbyn can pull it out of the bag. I usually vote Lib Dem, but we've got a Labour candidate (Paul Flynn) who could hold his seat so he'll get my vote. For those opposed to Brexit and a corrupt Tory government, tactical voting is the order of the day.

It can't be more of a disaster than the 2015 election, Brexit and Trump can it...?ย 




I think you will find its the left who dont like debate

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: PearlJam
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

I think you will find its the left who dont like debate

How so in the context of the UK? 



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If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.


Posted By: najbritcol
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 6:02pm
Surely all but the most one-eyed Brexiteers know that the European Union will ultimately have the upper hand in the negotiations and are hardly going to be conciliatory and favourable towards the UK.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

What about these papers the guardian, the mirror , the independent

Their combined readership is far below that of the papers owned by tax-dodging Tory supporters. It baffles me that the Mail - a paper that supported Hitler in the 1930s - is so popular. I suppose it has drifted slightly to the right since then...


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Or are you just sick of politics and elections? Post-Brexit and Trump I am pretty disillusioned by it all in truth and I though Brexit had some nasty stuff on both sides of the debate.

What I'm sick of is the Tory party attitude that debate needs to be silenced and we all need to "muck in" behind Brexit "in the national interest". Theresa May dislikes debate (no parliament input on the final Brexit terms and now she's pushed a snap election while the opposition is at it's weakest to get a mandate and a majority to push through extreme Tory policies) and is probably the most authoritarian politician of our generation. 

This is the loudest, silent coup I've known. It has echos of Erdowan in Turkey and her embarrassing Minister's (Johnson's failures on Syria and Truss miserable support for the "enemies of the people" / Judges during the Brexit High Court ruling) are bordering on incompetent.

You've got to hope Corbyn can pull it out of the bag. I usually vote Lib Dem, but we've got a Labour candidate (Paul Flynn) who could hold his seat so he'll get my vote. For those opposed to Brexit and a corrupt Tory government, tactical voting is the order of the day.

It can't be more of a disaster than the 2015 election, Brexit and Trump can it...? 



Fair points.

It strikes me as being a bit rich that Corbyn copped a lot of heat for not fighting harder to stop Brexit (my wife, for one, has not forgiven him) whereas May - who also in theory was a Remainer, kept her head so low below the parapet that she is now allowed to present herself as the 'Hard Brexit Queen' - a classic example of political expediency, cowardice and cynicism. She has again proved her gutlessness by refusing to debate with the other main parties on TV. Pathetic, really. How to lead from behind.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: TomTom
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 8:08pm
All the debate doesn't matter , the pendulum has swung in favour of extremism (left or right)....There is only one thing to look forward to is war ...Look back at history and its just repeating itself .....


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Or are you just sick of politics and elections? Post-Brexit and Trump I am pretty disillusioned by it all in truth and I though Brexit had some nasty stuff on both sides of the debate.

What I'm sick of is the Tory party attitude that debate needs to be silenced and we all need to "muck in" behind Brexit "in the national interest". Theresa May dislikes debate (no parliament input on the final Brexit terms and now she's pushed a snap election while the opposition is at it's weakest to get a mandate and a majority to push through extreme Tory policies) and is probably the most authoritarian politician of our generation. 

This is the loudest, silent coup I've known. It has echos of Erdowan in Turkey and her embarrassing Minister's (Johnson's failures on Syria and Truss miserable support for the "enemies of the people" / Judges during the Brexit High Court ruling) are bordering on incompetent.

You've got to hope Corbyn can pull it out of the bag. I usually vote Lib Dem, but we've got a Labour candidate (Paul Flynn) who could hold his seat so he'll get my vote. For those opposed to Brexit and a corrupt Tory government, tactical voting is the order of the day.

It can't be more of a disaster than the 2015 election, Brexit and Trump can it...? 



Fair points.

It strikes me as being a bit rich that Corbyn copped a lot of heat for not fighting harder to stop Brexit (my wife, for one, has not forgiven him) whereas May - who also in theory was a Remainer, kept her head so low below the parapet that she is now allowed to present herself as the 'Hard Brexit Queen' - a classic example of political expediency, cowardice and cynicism. She has again proved her gutlessness by refusing to debate with the other main parties on TV. Pathetic, really. How to lead from behind.

Good point, she sat on the fence too


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 10:33pm
This is as much about internal Tory battles as it is about Labour. May doesn't want to be beholden to her party's lunatic fringe who could easily revert into b'stard mode a la John Major. Yes it is politically expedient that Labour are well behind in the polls but I think she wants to pick up 50 or so extra MP's so that she has a buffer in parliament.

What does it mean to me personally? Well, the wheel kerps turning doesn't it! Corbyn hit a lot of my buttons today but when I think of the utter ineptitude of Welsh Labour and the shocking way in which Wales is run, I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I used to vote Plaid because I wholeheartedly believe the best way for Wales to thrive is for us to pull ourselves up by our own bootlaces - i.e. we govern ourselves. However I've never seen such a weak proposition as Plaid. Good grief get some ambition! The tories are an anathema for me and the Libs have gone to hide in a cave and found a neanderthal to lead them after the existential crisis for them that was the coalition government.

On a different note try the test on %20" rel="nofollow - https://www.politicalcompass.org . I found it useful. Helped me to think about where I could best place my vote. Just a pity in Llanelli it'll have zero effect as no doubt Labour's rosetted donkey will be elected as it has done since before written history!

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I've seen the truth ... and I don't understand it!


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 10:37pm
On the subject of Corbyn- since being elected he has failed to control his own party or even challenge the Conservative majority. For the government to do right they need a strong Labour and a strong Conservative party to keep each other in check.
Amazes me how Corbyn can have failed to stand up to the weakest Conservative leadership in years, have fallen to roughly 24 points behind them, have suffered major embarrassments and have failed to keep even lifelong Labour politicians on his side; yet people still think to seem he's a saviour. Let's be honest the bloke is a joke.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 20 April 2017 at 11:33pm
We talk here, the great talk about us beng the most Welsh Welsh region stuff yet it's all about Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn as the Welsh saviour up in Islington or somewhere up in London but what about our own party as the most Welsh region in the so called "most Welsh club" i.e. Plaid Cymru? Scotland puts us to shame some might say in their national support for their country's party. Discuss

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 8:29am
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

We talk here, the great talk about us beng the most Welsh Welsh region stuff yet it's all about Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn as the Welsh saviour up in Islington or somewhere up in London but what about our own party as the most Welsh region in the so called "most Welsh club" i.e. Plaid Cymru? Scotland puts us to shame some might say in their national support for their country's party. Discuss


The problem with Plaid is they've fallen for the very argument their opponents put against them, that is Wales is too crap to do anything for itself and needs Mummy England to wipe its botty. They need to demonstrate how they would improve our economy to the point where we stand proudly on our own two feet and how self governance would benefit every member of our nation.

Instead we get Leanne Wood bleating on about "In the Rhondda..." or "Westminster isn't giving us enough money..."

On your other point, I don't see Corbyn as any sort of saviour. Just a man with left wing policies leading a party who are, in the main, right of centre and desperately divided. I like some of his policies and agree with some of his analysis. I can't bear his party.

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I've seen the truth ... and I don't understand it!


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 8:47am
The problem with the electoral system in the UK is that some two thirds of the voting population will be governed by the remaining one third who are elected by the first past the post system.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 9:51am
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

The problem with the electoral system in the UK is that some two thirds of the voting population will be governed by the remaining one third who are elected by the first past the post system.


25% in 2015!

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I've seen the truth ... and I don't understand it!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 9:55am
Flawed system but thats what we have. 


Posted By: najbritcol
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:50am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Flawed system but thats what we have.ย 


Hence why we need some form of PR.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 11:40am
Totally agree but which party of the big two will, when in power, attempt the change? Be like turkeys voting fro Xmas. If fairness was the yardstick it would have happened years ago. But lets face it even when we get a simple majority vote a la Brexit people still don't stop whingeing.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 11:41am
Has anyone seen Neil Hamilton the Ukip leader at The Scarlets? One of Carmarthens finest moments to be proud of  electing him/UKip in!!! For some reason though I just feel embarrassed every time I see him pop up with huge regularity on the Telly and think how stupid some folk down west are! Of course I could be the stupid one!!Stern Smile

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Has anyone seen Neil Hamilton the Ukip leader at The Scarlets? One of Carmarthens finest moments to be proud of ย electing him/UKip in!!! For some reason though I just feel embarrassed every time I see him pop up with huge regularity on the Telly and think how stupid some folk down west are! Of course I could be the stupid one!!Stern Smile


Ammanford boy isn't he? Done Wales proud

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I've seen the truth ... and I don't understand it!


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 12:20pm
how on earth did hamilton get elected?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 1:18pm
Makes a mockery really. Being an Ammanford boy myself how do I go about disowning him?


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Makes a mockery really. Being an Ammanford boy myself how do I go about disowning him?

I think you just have !!! LOLLOLLOL


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Has anyone seen Neil Hamilton the Ukip leader at The Scarlets? One of Carmarthens finest moments to be proud of  electing him/UKip in!!! For some reason though I just feel embarrassed every time I see him pop up with huge regularity on the Telly and think how stupid some folk down west are! Of course I could be the stupid one!!Stern Smile


Ammanford boy isn't he? Done Wales proud

Hamilton got totally shamed a few months back on Question Time when one of the other panelists pointed out that NONE of the UKIP members elected to the WAG even lived or owned a home in Wales !!

I'm sorry, but that made us Welsh look somewhat stupid. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

how on earth did hamilton get elected?

Maybe because he had the good taste to get a degree in Aberystwyth?Wink


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Makes a mockery really. Being an Ammanford boy myself how do I go about disowning him?
stones throw from our houses gareth.


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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 3:16pm
More a comment on the good folk of Carmarthen who voted him in! Good Scarlets territory as well which makes it more shocking!! Embarrassed

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 3:36pm
Ukip should dismantle themselves now as they have achieved their aim. They serve no purpose other than to muddy the waters.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Makes a mockery really. Being an Ammanford boy myself how do I go about disowning him?
stones throw from our houses gareth.

Get those stones ready, in case he pays a visit!Wink


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 21 April 2017 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Has anyone seen Neil Hamilton the Ukip leader at The Scarlets? One of Carmarthens finest moments to be proud of  electing him/UKip in!!! For some reason though I just feel embarrassed every time I see him pop up with huge regularity on the Telly and think how stupid some folk down west are! Of course I could be the stupid one!!Stern Smile


You're right to feel embarrassed- I do. His mysogynist attitude to all his female opponents is a disgrace.



Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 22 April 2017 at 8:12am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Makes a mockery really. Being an Ammanford boy myself how do I go about disowning him?
stones throw from our houses gareth.

Yes I remember - pretty large residence if I recall Nige. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 13 May 2017 at 8:40am
Well, campaigning now well under way. Labour's manifesto resonates with me and is very much about equality. I know he has this image issue (not least thanks to our [beep] newspapers in this country and perhaps his lack of stage presence) but I find myself agreeing with the majority of what Corbyn says and at least he is a principled and ethical person. May just bashes out catchphrases on repeat and her stance on immigration (remember that speech when she was home secretary?) and social mobility (this more grammar schools obsession is odd) aren't to my liking. Plus she has not really said anything about what her party actually is offering yet; it's more been a ceaseless, childish criticism of Corbyn. I still don't believe the Conservatives care about "just about managing" and low income areas/people; this is just an angle to get the middle-class vote I suspect.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 13 May 2017 at 9:14am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Well, campaigning now well under way. Labour's manifesto resonates with me and is very much about equality. I know he has this image issue (not least thanks to our [beep] newspapers in this country and perhaps his lack of stage presence) but I find myself agreeing with the majority of what Corbyn says and at least he is a principled and ethical person. May just bashes out catchphrases on repeat and her stance on immigration (remember that speech when she was home secretary?) and social mobility (this more grammar schools obsession is odd) aren't to my liking. Plus she has not really said anything about what her party actually is offering yet; it's more been a ceaseless, childish criticism of Corbyn. I still don't believe the Conservatives care about "just about managing" and low income areas/people; this is just an angle to get the middle-class vote I suspect.

Cannot disagree with anything you have said. Corbyn has the unenviable task over the next 4 weeks of convincing large swathes of this country that he can be trusted on the economy & security. Stranger things have happened but he clearly has factions within his party fighting against him which makes his job a lot harder. 


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 13 May 2017 at 9:51pm
the point is, I'm not Corbyn's biggest fan, thought Burnham would have made a better leader, but the more I see Corbyn talk on TV the more I resonate with him..... poo!!!!!!

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 8:25am
Well that was interesting.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 9:49am
Quite funny/ironic really Yew Tree Manor , which is a lovely gracious property, in Newport Shropshire where young Corbs was brought up is now often where the local Conservative Party holds fund raisers etc. I have been there many times in the past ( not as a party activist I hasten to add ) ๐Ÿ˜Š

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:06am
Well duw duw duw that was a close run thing
Corbyn emerges very well out of this, good results for labour, especially in Wales and London...Tories fell back a bit, May clings on with a real bloody nose after calling the election she ends with a smaller lead and no clear majority, Libs limp on, SNP fell back 22 seats, UKIP are wiped out and plaed gained a mere 1 seat.

Tories will probably form a government with the DUP on board, some like anna soubry demanding that may quits, if she does, would that mean yet another election? That would be the 3rd in just over 2 years and 2 referendums...Thats pretty chaotic

Theyll be disseminating the reasons for these results for a while....Brexit, Police numbers, social care, austerity, wages, zero hour contracts, tutition fees, corporate taxes, tory and SNP complacency,  where is brexit now?


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:11am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Well duw duw duw that was a close run thing
Corbyn emerges very well out of this, good results for labour, especially in Wales and London...Tories fell back a bit, May clings on with a real bloody nose after calling the election she ends with a smaller lead and no clear majority, Libs limp on, SNP fell back 22 seats, UKIP are wiped out and plaed gained a mere 1 seat.

Tories will probably form a government with the DUP on board, some like anna soubry demanding that may quits, if she does, would that mean yet another election? That would be the 3rd in just over 2 years and 2 referendums...Thats pretty chaotic

Theyll be disseminating the reasons for these results for a while....Brexit, Police numbers, social care, austerity, wages, zero hour contracts, tutition fees, corporate taxes, tory and SNP complacency, ย where is brexit now?

You can add nhs being a major factor between these parties. Brexit has to happen just how it happens is the concern.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Well duw duw duw that was a close run thing
Corbyn emerges very well out of this, good results for labour, especially in Wales and London...Tories fell back a bit, May clings on with a real bloody nose after calling the election she ends with a smaller lead and no clear majority, Libs limp on, SNP fell back 22 seats, UKIP are wiped out and plaed gained a mere 1 seat.

Tories will probably form a government with the DUP on board, some like anna soubry demanding that may quits, if she does, would that mean yet another election? That would be the 3rd in just over 2 years and 2 referendums...Thats pretty chaotic

Theyll be disseminating the reasons for these results for a while....Brexit, Police numbers, social care, austerity, wages, zero hour contracts, tutition fees, corporate taxes, tory and SNP complacency,  where is brexit now?

You can add nhs being a major factor between these parties. Brexit has to happen just how it happens is the concern.

Yes how did I leave that out? late night lol


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:28am
This was when the young got revenge on the old for voting Brexit and who hadn't voted in the referendum with most young people not engaged in 'middle aged' politics. The Brexit decision outraged of thousands of young people who brought Labour substantial gains. Lessons learned all round there and good for politics to make it more relevant for younger people as well.  

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: najbritcol
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:49am
Labour did better than predicted by some distance. UKIP vote collapsed and was split between Tories and Labour. May's plan has to a large extent backfired, thankfully.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:52am
So how will this affect brexit?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 11:54am
Her campaign advisers blew it big time. Too Presidential and not a ' friend of the people ' like Corbyn. Classic case studies for all budding spin doctors to learn from!!Embarrassed

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 12:00pm
Can't believe Llanelli didn't become a Tory seat.

Stuff the Ospreys.
Mash and stifle Leinster.
Obliterate Munster.

May is brilliant.

Wouldn't you want to vote for 5 more years like that?๐Ÿ˜Ž๐Ÿ˜‰

-------------
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 12:01pm
Two thoughts arise:

1. What a mess.
2. Theresa May does not know the definition of the word "stable".


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

So how will this affect brexit?

Yeah 'cos we're desperate to pay the 60 billion.... Again, was THAT on the side of a bus???

It's pretty clear May and the Tories have put their own internal party politics over Brexit and the country's issues and it's cost them. May HAD a majority government and HAD set her stance on a hard Brexit, with the votes AND enough time to achieve it. If she was truly that devoted to Brexit she wouldn't have called it in the first place, is my opinion, and now there is this backlash - and deservedly so.

Either way, you have a very divided country post-referendum and close to 50% are going to be pretty unhappy with what occurs.

It's a self-created mess and I think Mrs May's days are numbered now.


Posted By: PritchyTheScarlet
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 1:14pm
How can May carry on?! LOL

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All Time Favourite Scarlets XV

B Davies, M Jones, R King, J Davies, D James, S Jones, D Peel
R Evans, K Owens, J Davies, V Cooper, C Wyatt, S Easterby, J Davies, S Quinnell


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Can't believe Llanelli didn't become a Tory seat.

Stuff the Ospreys.
Mash and stifle Leinster.
Obliterate Munster.

May is brilliant.

Wouldn't you want to vote for 5 more years like that?๐Ÿ˜Ž๐Ÿ˜‰
You sound like Alistair Cambell the king of spin Wink

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 1:30pm
Does Theresa May often refer to her party in full as the "Conservative and Unionist party", as she just did?

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*****
https://i.gyazo.com/ed00f04d99f5f696174e1c7c1f9c79b0.gif" rel="nofollow - Best ref in the World
*****


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 1:51pm
Interesting thread on the DUP here:

https://twitter.com/green_grainger/status/873133123843829760" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/green_grainger/status/873133123843829760

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*****
https://i.gyazo.com/ed00f04d99f5f696174e1c7c1f9c79b0.gif" rel="nofollow - Best ref in the World
*****


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Interesting thread on the DUP here:

https://twitter.com/green_grainger/status/873133123843829760" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/green_grainger/status/873133123843829760

Guardian ran a very brief article suggesting they are anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion also.

If only we could have a strong and stable leader to help us through these difficult times......

Oh wait, she actually is saying that!

Think we'll have a leadership challenge pretty soon. BoJo for PM anyone?


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Does Theresa May often refer to her party in full as the "Conservative and Unionist party", as she just did?
No, it was deliberate.  

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: RedZep
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:13pm
During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.


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'' Know your three R's, son..... Rugby, Rock and Ridin'!! ''


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

There are a few out there who might fit the bill:

Vladimir Putin?
Assad?
Kim Jong-un?

State your preference, please...

Actually, what I'd prefer to a 'strong' leader is a 'collegiate' one, who is willing to listen to members of his own party and members of the public, before coming to a policy decision  as opposed to someone who retreats to a bunker with a few trusted lieutenants and comes out with the political equivalent of the Ten Commandments.

I have total contempt for the 'strong leader' - that sort of thinking produced Hitler and Stalin, FFS! (FWIW, the 'best' PM in my lifetime was Harold Wilson - who managed to run a government riven by factions and yet kept the show on the road, whilst bringing in many excellent policies. Of course, plenty of mistakes were made as well, but the balance was definitely positive.)




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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: RedZep
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:25pm
Aber, if you seriously think I'm advocating a mass-murdering megalomaniac in charge of the country then you're even more ga-ga than previously thought. My post is reference to strong leadership within a democracy and not a dictatorship, as you well know.

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'' Know your three R's, son..... Rugby, Rock and Ridin'!! ''


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:37pm
Strong leaderships is good when that leader has good moral judgement and the intelligence to speak to a range of differing opinions, to delegate well and listen to his/her advisors and to the electorate. The trouble with an egotist like maggie thatcher milk snatcher or warmonger blair, is even when they are hopelessly wrong they carry on regardless to avoid showing any weakness.

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Can't believe Llanelli didn't become a Tory seat.

Stuff the Ospreys.
Mash and stifle Leinster.
Obliterate Munster.

May is brilliant.

Wouldn't you want to vote for 5 more years like that?๐Ÿ˜Ž๐Ÿ˜‰
You sound like Alistair Cambell the king of spinย Wink
Never been on a Lions Tour, or supported Burnley.

You must be mistaken, sir.

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Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 5:01pm
Vote Zep โŽ

The guy with a Whole Lotta Love

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Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 7:17pm
One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.

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I've seen the truth ... and I don't understand it!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 09 June 2017 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May. 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 5:58am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.

Good points. 22 councils is too many. The CEO's are way overpaid too. We see masses of people so angry demanding more money is spent on public services , they should be just as angry about the mindless waste of public money throughout Wales 


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

Aber, if you seriously think I'm advocating a mass-murdering megalomaniac in charge of the country then you're even more ga-ga than previously thought. My post is reference to strong leadership within a democracy and not a dictatorship, as you well know.

Well. maybe... but the term 'strong leader' does rather make me puke.

Who looks stronger now, after the election?

'Vote for the' Theresa May party?

or collegiate further-ed lecturer type Mr Corbyn?

just asking, like.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Strong leaderships is good when that leader has good moral judgement and the intelligence to speak to a range of differing opinions, to delegate well and listen to his/her advisors and to the electorate. The trouble with an egotist like maggie thatcher milk snatcher or warmonger blair, is even when they are hopelessly wrong they carry on regardless to avoid showing any weakness.

Quite so, Roy - my point summarised in a nutshell.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.

Good points. 22 councils is too many. The CEO's are way overpaid too. We see masses of people so angry demanding more money is spent on public services , they should be just as angry about the mindless waste of public money throughout Wales 

Totally agree about there being too many councils. What was wrong with Dyfed etc.? We had far fewer then, and then it all got 're-orgainsied', even though I can't for the life of me remember a single person taking to the streets to ask for more council CEOs.

So, council numbers should be cut - and the money saved used to employ more people who actually do the work (on the roads, bins etc.) and fewer guys sitting in offices.

(In passing, I caught a report from Bury this morning which said that the council grant from central government has been cut by 50% in the last 7 years or so... councils can't go on suffering death by a thousand cuts from central government. What do they do with the money, anyway? Cut taxes for the rich, again?)


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May

Point 1 - really, not. I hope I have made my position on the so-called 'strong leader' abundantly clear. As Roy says, the stubbornness of so-called strong leaders such as Thatcher and Blair have proved disastrous to our country... let alone the others I mentioned. I really would not want a Trump or a Putin!

Point 2 - I can only assume that you have been smoking something rather potent, if you really think May has come out of this election anything other than terminally damaged and holed below the waterline. She chickened out of any number of opportunities to debate with her opponents; she hid in a shack in Scotland, and many other similar venues, surrounded only by placard-waving rent-a-crowd acolytes; she came across as someone incapable of answering any question with a straight answer... i suspect she'd even have evaded a Q about how many sugars she likes in her tea, FFS! 

She has already sacked her two top advisers, in an inevitably doomed attempt to save her own skin. Absolutely no-one believes she will lead the Tories into the next election... she'll be lucky to survive six months, IMHO.

(Now, this is not personal against you - your views are normally pretty sane - but, REALLY! I do think you are being - with respect - a trifle delusional.)


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May

Point 1 - really, not. I hope I have made my position on the so-called 'strong leader' abundantly clear. As Roy says, the stubbornness of so-called strong leaders such as Thatcher and Blair have proved disastrous to our country... let alone the others I mentioned. I really would not want a Trump or a Putin!

Point 2 - I can only assume that you have been smoking something rather potent, if you really think May has come out of this election anything other than terminally damaged and holed below the waterline. She chickened out of any number of opportunities to debate with her opponents; she hid in a shack in Scotland, and many other similar venues, surrounded only by placard-waving rent-a-crowd acolytes; she came across as someone incapable of answering any question with a straight answer... i suspect she'd even have evaded a Q about how many sugars she likes in her tea, FFS! 

She has already sacked her two top advisers, in an inevitably doomed attempt to save her own skin. Absolutely no-one believes she will lead the Tories into the next election... she'll be lucky to survive six months, IMHO.

(Now, this is not personal against you - your views are normally pretty sane - but, REALLY! I do think you are being - with respect - a trifle delusional.)

Delusional - well you may well be correct Aber. My wish before the vote was for the country to be left with a ruling party - whoever that was with a workable mandate. We now have the absolute worse case scenario bearing in mind the negotiations due to commence in less than 10 days. My comment refers to who we want to lead us through the difficult negotiations ahead. I have never once commented on May's performance during the last 6-7 weeks. It has been woeful, however it would be interesting to hear who you feel should lead the negotiations. Are you advocating the leader of the, still opposition? Let us not forget as woeful as the Conservative campaign was they still have 50 + more MP's than the next party. So lets hear your selection Aber. While I wait I'll get back to my smoke!!!Wink


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 9:04pm
dai davies will probably get that short straw

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 10 June 2017 at 10:15pm
It's ok, we'll have another one by the end of the year.

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 11 June 2017 at 6:00am
Liverpool qualifying for the Champions league and Scarlets winning the league did prompt some concern in me about your general wellbeing what with all that rancour removed.

Thanks God for Theresa May Sal.


Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 14 June 2017 at 10:31am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Delusional - well you may well be correct Aber. My wish before the vote was for the country to be left with a ruling party - whoever that was with a workable mandate. We now have the absolute worse case scenario bearing in mind the negotiations due to commence in less than 10 days. My comment refers to who we want to lead us through the difficult negotiations ahead. I have never once commented on May's performance during the last 6-7 weeks. It has been woeful, however it would be interesting to hear who you feel should lead the negotiations. Are you advocating the leader of the, still opposition? Let us not forget as woeful as the Conservative campaign was they still have 50 + more MP's than the next party. So lets hear your selection Aber. While I wait I'll get back to my smoke!!!Wink
Negotiations due to start in now under 10 days, yet she's seen swanning about at the England/France game. Maybe she should be concentrating on Brexit like she claimed when she chickened out of a leadership debate.


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPLe3ApXjW4&list=PL576FE48C1F044909&index=1" rel="nofollow - Scarlets tries of the season 2009 - 2017


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 June 2017 at 11:07am
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Delusional - well you may well be correct Aber. My wish before the vote was for the country to be left with a ruling party - whoever that was with a workable mandate. We now have the absolute worse case scenario bearing in mind the negotiations due to commence in less than 10 days. My comment refers to who we want to lead us through the difficult negotiations ahead. I have never once commented on May's performance during the last 6-7 weeks. It has been woeful, however it would be interesting to hear who you feel should lead the negotiations. Are you advocating the leader of the, still opposition? Let us not forget as woeful as the Conservative campaign was they still have 50 + more MP's than the next party. So lets hear your selection Aber. While I wait I'll get back to my smoke!!!Wink
Negotiations due to start in now under 10 days, yet she's seen swanning about at the England/France game. Maybe she should be concentrating on Brexit like she claimed when she chickened out of a leadership debate.

If her Mexican wave is anything to go on we are indeed doomed!!!!


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 14 June 2017 at 11:35am
what would ask for in the Brexit negotiations with the eu

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 June 2017 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May

Point 1 - really, not. I hope I have made my position on the so-called 'strong leader' abundantly clear. As Roy says, the stubbornness of so-called strong leaders such as Thatcher and Blair have proved disastrous to our country... let alone the others I mentioned. I really would not want a Trump or a Putin!

Point 2 - I can only assume that you have been smoking something rather potent, if you really think May has come out of this election anything other than terminally damaged and holed below the waterline. She chickened out of any number of opportunities to debate with her opponents; she hid in a shack in Scotland, and many other similar venues, surrounded only by placard-waving rent-a-crowd acolytes; she came across as someone incapable of answering any question with a straight answer... i suspect she'd even have evaded a Q about how many sugars she likes in her tea, FFS! 

She has already sacked her two top advisers, in an inevitably doomed attempt to save her own skin. Absolutely no-one believes she will lead the Tories into the next election... she'll be lucky to survive six months, IMHO.

(Now, this is not personal against you - your views are normally pretty sane - but, REALLY! I do think you are being - with respect - a trifle delusional.)

Delusional - well you may well be correct Aber. My wish before the vote was for the country to be left with a ruling party - whoever that was with a workable mandate. We now have the absolute worse case scenario bearing in mind the negotiations due to commence in less than 10 days. My comment refers to who we want to lead us through the difficult negotiations ahead. I have never once commented on May's performance during the last 6-7 weeks. It has been woeful, however it would be interesting to hear who you feel should lead the negotiations. Are you advocating the leader of the, still opposition? Let us not forget as woeful as the Conservative campaign was they still have 50 + more MP's than the next party. So lets hear your selection Aber. While I wait I'll get back to my smoke!!!Wink

May I remind you that:

1. May had a majority before she called the election (which she promised us that she wasn't going to do)
2. The 'worst case scenario' as you call it is entirely down to May's decision to call an election for purely party political reasons, and then failed dismally to campaign - her only point apparently being that she wasn't Corbyn.

May has no mandate to negotiate. I'd put Kenneth Clarke in charge, since it's obvious that a 'hard Brexit' or (even worse) 'no deal' will be disastrous, and won't command any sort of parliamentary support... even the otherwise rather crazy DUP DO NOT support a hard Brexit. Clarke has the experience and the skills needed, unlike that clown Davis. (Up until now, the Tories' approach has appeared to consist of shouting threats and abuse at the Europeans - hardly a method designed to smooth the way to any sort of good deal.)

Note: I don't expect them to ask Clarke to do this, but it would be the best idea in the circumstances, IMHO.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 June 2017 at 8:06am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:


1. May had a majority before she called the election (which she promised us that she wasn't going to do)
2. The 'worst case scenario' as you call it is entirely down to May's decision to call an election for purely party political reasons, and then failed dismally to campaign - her only point apparently being that she wasn't Corbyn.

May has no mandate to negotiate. I'd put Kenneth Clarke in charge, since it's obvious that a 'hard Brexit' or (even worse) 'no deal' will be disastrous, and won't command any sort of parliamentary support... even the otherwise rather crazy DUP DO NOT support a hard Brexit. Clarke has the experience and the skills needed, unlike that clown Davis. (Up until now, the Tories' approach has appeared to consist of shouting threats and abuse at the Europeans - hardly a method designed to smooth the way to any sort of good deal.)

Note: I don't expect them to ask Clarke to do this, but it would be the best idea in the circumstances, IMHO.

Yes, indeed, this was pointed out to me by a Dutch colleague (who are always famously shy with their opinions!) that she put party issues before national. In turn this is reflective of divisions within the party - but now we have to pay the price for this weak and unstable leadership or petty squabbling in what is, as GPR states, a pretty important time for the country.

Although someone else mentioned the Tories actually had more votes than Blair got for his majority and many seats were very, very close - amazingly, so (Kensington by 20 votes). Telegraph running an article on how they were just 400 votes short of a majority.

The oddities of our system doesn't change the reality though: they HAD a majority anyway and HAD time to do whatever their supporters wanted, or the Brexiteers. So why risk it? It's a gamble that has cost them. Dealing out some humility to Theresa May (or, indeed, any leader) I'm fine with, but the future power vacuum that is already starting to open, in part due to her decision to run a presidential rather than party campaign, is concerning as there's a lot of unpleasant people waiting to fall into that particular plughole. And who knows what detritus will clog up this country next?

Not to mention this has resulted in agreements with the DUP and their policies or how this may destabilise things in Northern Ireland....

I reiterate my first thought: it's all got very messy.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 June 2017 at 8:24am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:


1. May had a majority before she called the election (which she promised us that she wasn't going to do)
2. The 'worst case scenario' as you call it is entirely down to May's decision to call an election for purely party political reasons, and then failed dismally to campaign - her only point apparently being that she wasn't Corbyn.

May has no mandate to negotiate. I'd put Kenneth Clarke in charge, since it's obvious that a 'hard Brexit' or (even worse) 'no deal' will be disastrous, and won't command any sort of parliamentary support... even the otherwise rather crazy DUP DO NOT support a hard Brexit. Clarke has the experience and the skills needed, unlike that clown Davis. (Up until now, the Tories' approach has appeared to consist of shouting threats and abuse at the Europeans - hardly a method designed to smooth the way to any sort of good deal.)

Note: I don't expect them to ask Clarke to do this, but it would be the best idea in the circumstances, IMHO.

Yes, indeed, this was pointed out to me by a Dutch colleague (who are always famously shy with their opinions!) that she put party issues before national. In turn this is reflective of divisions within the party - but now we have to pay the price for this weak and unstable leadership or petty squabbling in what is, as GPR states, a pretty important time for the country.

Although someone else mentioned the Tories actually had more votes than Blair got for his majority and many seats were very, very close - amazingly, so (Kensington by 20 votes). Telegraph running an article on how they were just 400 votes short of a majority.

The oddities of our system doesn't change the reality though: they HAD a majority anyway and HAD time to do whatever their supporters wanted, or the Brexiteers. So why risk it? It's a gamble that has cost them. Dealing out some humility to Theresa May (or, indeed, any leader) I'm fine with, but the future power vacuum that is already starting to open, in part due to her decision to run a presidential rather than party campaign, is concerning as there's a lot of unpleasant people waiting to fall into that particular plughole. And who knows what detritus will clog up this country next?

Not to mention this has resulted in agreements with the DUP and their policies or how this may destabilise things in Northern Ireland....

I reiterate my first thought: it's all got very messy.

Totally agree with your summation of it being messy & indeed very dangerous to our National prosperity. Aber's idea of putting Clarke in charge has some merit I must admit but I cannot see it happening. The DUP deal is far from ideal as any ramping up of political tensions in Northern Ireland is totally unwelcome. As May admitted she got us into this mess we are about to see if she can get us out!!!


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 15 June 2017 at 3:57pm
I understand that she is continuing in her habit of 'don't meet the people' by going to the site of the disastrous blaze in London, but didn't meet any of the actual residents. (Please correct me if this is wrong, as I have it at second hand.)

-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 June 2017 at 4:08pm
what are the main benefits of staying in the customs union

-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 June 2017 at 4:12pm
heres one crazy idea for you.......may goes to brussels sits down with the 27 leaders and junker etc and asks them simply what other compromises would they be willing to offer ion brexit. clearly they can see she is in a near impossible position with brexit inevitable. IF they would bend on open borders , free trade, customs union etc is some way shape or form and whatever other issues there are...is it not possible she could bring that back and offer it to joe public as a third way? I know a) the eu has never ever compromised before, but losing the UK is losing their 2nd biggets net contributor and 2) may would have to offer the new deal to the public...possibly with a 2nd referendum ? sounds far fetched but compromise is the only way any peace is ever reached

-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 June 2017 at 8:38am
[QUOTE=roy munster] heres one crazy idea for you.......may goes to brussels sits down with the 27 leaders and junker etc and asks them simply what other compromises would they be willing to offer ion brexit. clearly they can see she is in a near impossible position with brexit inevitable. IF they would bend on open borders , free trade, customs union etc is some way shape or form and whatever other issues there are...is it not possible she could bring that back and offer it to joe public as a third way? I know a) the eu has never ever compromised before, but losing the UK is losing their 2nd biggets net contributor and 2) may would have to offer the new deal to the public...possibly with a 2nd referendum ? sounds far fetched but compromise is the only way any peace is ever reached[/QUOTE]

That's for sure, which made it all the more stupid when the rabid Brexiteers started 'negotiations' by shouting the odds in the press, and insulting the Europeans. 

Not exactly the best way to make friends and influence people!


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 June 2017 at 10:47am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

[QUOTE=roy munster] heres one crazy idea for you.......may goes to brussels sits down with the 27 leaders and junker etc and asks them simply what other compromises would they be willing to offer ion brexit. clearly they can see she is in a near impossible position with brexit inevitable. IF they would bend on open borders , free trade, customs union etc is some way shape or form and whatever other issues there are...is it not possible she could bring that back and offer it to joe public as a third way? I know a) the eu has never ever compromised before, but losing the UK is losing their 2nd biggets net contributor and 2) may would have to offer the new deal to the public...possibly with a 2nd referendum ? sounds far fetched but compromise is the only way any peace is ever reached[/QUOTE]

That's for sure, which made it all the more stupid when the rabid Brexiteers started 'negotiations' by shouting the odds in the press, and insulting the Europeans. 

Not exactly the best way to make friends and influence people!

The EU is a sorry mess regardless of brexit. But these egos need to sit down and come to a deal


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)



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