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Gats undermines the Lions

Printed From: Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets
Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: B&I Lions 2017
Forum Description: Tour of New Zealand
URL: https://scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43420
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 8:53am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Gats undermines the Lions
Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Subject: Gats undermines the Lions
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 9:28am
4 of our squad called up - Cory Hill, Gareth Davies, Kristian Dacey and Tomas Francis (who can't even get a start for Exeter) - disgraceful decision which will no doubt have an impact on morale.



Replies:
Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 10:36am
He undermined Lions by having Howley on coaching team but latest selections crazy Launchbury Grey Nel Care Brown will all be rightfully tamping please Warren as well as you have done for Wales please stay at home.

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: PE SA
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

He undermined Lions by having Howley on coaching team but latest selections crazy Launchbury Grey Nel Care Brown will all be rightfully tamping please Warren as well as you have done for Wales please stay at home.
In fairness, Howler wasnt first choice. Townsend and Schmidt said no. 
Im sure someone else turned it down as well. Then Howley was like that kid in class jumping up and down with his hand in the air until he got noticed!!  




Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 11:22am
I've seen Russell and Dell now joining - Russell at least would have been next on the plane but if the Scots are close enough geographically surely Gray should have got in before Hill!!!


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

I've seen Russell and Dell now joining - Russell at least would have been next on the plane but if the Scots are close enough geographically surely Gray should have got in before Hill!!!
Johnny Gray was absolutely outstanding this morning, there's no justification for selecting Hill over him

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 12:24pm
Wales will find it hard net season, Gatland in his wisdom has given them a great pre-match talk.

Go out there and proof who the true lions are.


I will say Russell and Gareth are potentially Lions, and allegedly in the original x squad asked if they were available.


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: haydn_davies
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

I've seen Russell and Dell now joining - Russell at least would have been next on the plane but if the Scots are close enough geographically surely Gray should have got in before Hill!!!
Johnny Gray was absolutely outstanding this morning, there's no justification for selecting Hill over him

Except that Hill is a Dragons player, WRU own the Dragons, Gatland is a WRU employee, as has been said on another thread...

Stinks if you ask me.

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Think, think, think - it's a thinking man's game!! - The Great Carwyn James.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 2:09pm
Sorry I didn't see there was already a thread (call ups) - don't know if this can be merged into that one


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 2:19pm
Im embarassed for him. Whilst cawdor is a great scrum half , the other choices are simply absurd. Especially hill. It stinks of nepotism. Is gatland really saying hed rather pick hill over launchbury or others better places simply because they are 13 hours away? Gatland has had too much power for far too long and absolute power corrupts absolutely

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:02pm
I can see the Argentine point for this Tuesday as jet lag BUT he knew he'd do this and could have called them earlier plus Jonny Gray far better. It's as if he sees the potential benefit to Wales for the future of giving Cory this experience, but if so it should never be about that


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:21pm
I can understand calling up Fin Russell as we have an injury at FB and the lock replacement (not the person called mind) but what is the logic for a hooker,S/H and prop where we have no injuries. Voice Woodward tarnished the lions I thought by taking high on every registered player in the British miles, a press corps and the knob jockey Alistair Campbell plus but they seemed to have reverted back to a semblance of common sense after that until good old Gatland gives lions caps like christmas cracker pressies


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

I can understand calling up Fin Russell as we have an injury at FB and the lock replacement (not the person called mind) but what is the logic for a hooker,S/H and prop where we have no injuries. Voice Woodward tarnished the lions I thought by taking high on every registered player in the British miles, a press corps and the knob jockey Alistair Campbell plus but they seemed to have reverted back to a semblance of common sense after that until good old Gatland gives lions caps like christmas cracker pressies
Knob jockey lolLOL


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

I can understand calling up Fin Russell as we have an injury at FB and the lock replacement (not the person called mind) but what is the logic for a hooker,S/H and prop where we have no injuries. Voice Woodward tarnished the lions I thought by taking high on every registered player in the British miles, a press corps and the knob jockey Alistair Campbell plus but they seemed to have reverted back to a semblance of common sense after that until good old Gatland gives lions caps like christmas cracker pressies

Knob jockey lolLOL

A phrase somewhat lost I still fondly remember Paul O Donnell de-bagging him on the touchline and saying what have you done to earn this (the tracksuit) which sums up the value of a lions badge and the toil players put in to earn it.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:41pm
Two different and very clear distinctions for me.

These players have been called up for 7 days. Merit didn't really come in to it.



Posted By: John
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 3:49pm
They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.
especially as the jocks are there down under and just dry humped the aussies with a fantastic display, now up to 5th in the world...is it any wonder the scots fans are up in arms over gatlands squad selections?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.



You'd call Gray up to sit on the bench and be part of the camp for a week?


Posted By: pêl rygbi
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

4 of our squad called up - Cory Hill, Gareth Davies, Kristian Dacey and Tomas Francis (who can't even get a start for Exeter) - disgraceful decision which will no doubt have an impact on morale.


Agree totally - no defence for such a decision. I would imagine other home nations will be seething. I'm sure that will fire them up when they play Wales next. I don't buy this time zone thing - if it was always the plan to bring players in then manage the process. Hanson found out and he has driven a wedge - so if he knew then Gatland could have known early enough to take account. It strikes of nepotism. The legacy of Lions tours has been bringing nations together. He has failed and unfortunately the 2017 lions may too! The standard of Lions rugby is poor from a spectator point of view. The games they have won have been opposition dropping off - like today. The All Black won’t !



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Rugby Supporter


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:28pm
But Gray would potentially be replacing an injured Lawes as is Russell the rest are ......... not


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:35pm
Is Lawes out of the tour?


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by pêl rygbi pêl rygbi wrote:

Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

4 of our squad called up - Cory Hill, Gareth Davies, Kristian Dacey and Tomas Francis (who can't even get a start for Exeter) - disgraceful decision which will no doubt have an impact on morale.

Disagree about today a combined nations forward grunt ground out a win today.Where it goes wrong in the backs is the delay in presenting the ball from rolling mauls etc. They release the ball after they have stopped moving allowing the defence to form as opposed to unleashing Teo onto a defence on the backfoot. We teacher that to our under13's and they get it. Sums up Gatland and Howley

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<p ="Msonormal">Agree totally - no defence for such a decision. I would
imagine other home nations will be seething. I'm sure that will fire them up
when they play Wales next. I don't buy this time zone thing - if it was always
the plan to bring players in then manage the process. Hanson found out and he
has driven a wedge - so if he knew then Gatland could have known early enough
to take account. It strikes of nepotism. The legacy of Lions tours has been
bringing nations together. He has failed and unfortunately the 2017 lions may
too! The standard of Lions rugby is poor from a spectator point of view. The
games they have won have been opposition dropping off - like today. The All
Black won’t !



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Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Is Lawes out of the tour?

Hope not still on HIA protocol I think


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.



You'd call Gray up to sit on the bench and be part of the camp for a week?


If one of the starting locks gets a bang on the nut in the first five minutes and fails the HIA, I'd rather have Gray playing 75 minutes than Hill. Furthermore ( a less immediate point) I expect Gray to be a major part of the next Lions squad- I'm not so sure about Hill in that respect. So in 6 years time, it wouldn't have devalued the Lions.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 7:39pm
But if say 2 or maybe one lock gets injured Hill will no doubt stay there- only a 7 day stint if every one else stays fit.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 7:51pm
Gats will call up more players soon. He's just waiting until after the first test to assss who.


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 17 June 2017 at 8:06pm
I don't agree with Hill selection because Lsunchberty and Grey proven intl quality and very good players. Hill though has never let Wales down and must be feeling like poo with all abuse he and others getting. It's not there fault and they hardly going to say no.

-------------
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Dafen Boy
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 4:33am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

I don't agree with Hill selection because Lsunchberty and Grey proven intl quality and very good players. Hill though has never let Wales down and must be feeling like poo with all abuse he and others getting. It's not there fault and they hardly going to say no.

He plays for Newport so should be used to itWink


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:27am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

But if say 2 or maybe one lock gets injured Hill will no doubt stay there- only a 7 day stint if every one else stays fit.


I suppose Hill could stay, but I'm not sure, but why wouldn't Gats call up one of the Grays too if a 2nd row is injured?
All rows are still on tour right now.
No way on Gods green earth is Hill going to start a game for the Lions.

Also Scotland still have Fiji this coming weekend...If I was Townsend I would block a drain of his starting players to be in NZ for a week...he had obviously decided he was going to play another 10 this weekend before releasing Russell.

My take on this is that I am 99% sure Francis, Gareth and Russell will get on for the last 15-20 mins...so triggering notable payments to their union...Dacey, Allen and Hill will only see game time if someone is injured.

The plan is to release all 6 after next weekend...however I am also sure Gats will take stock of the total squad after that 1st test and adjust his call ups accordingly. All home Nations will have finished the summer tours too.
I think this is why he hasn't yet replaced Hogg and Moriarty, he's just waiting to see how the next 2 games go.




Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:27am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.



You'd call Gray up to sit on the bench and be part of the camp for a week?

Why not Wil. Are you really advocating that Gatlands decision makes sense? What will happen if Lawes breaks down & one of the top 3 locks gets injured? Gatland will then, if my understanding of your rationale is correct, call up Launchbury or Grey & send Corey Hill home. Surely you do not select a Lion based on being bench fodder. Gatland has done the Lions brand a great disservice. He could have called up Launchbury immediately after the Argentina 1st test as he will have known his plans. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

But if say 2 or maybe one lock gets injured Hill will no doubt stay there- only a 7 day stint if every one else stays fit.


I suppose Hill could stay, but I'm not sure, but why wouldn't Gats call up one of the Grays too if a 2nd row is injured?
All rows are still on tour right now.
No way on Gods green earth is Hill going to start a game for the Lions.

Also Scotland still have Fiji this coming weekend...If I was Townsend I would block a drain of his starting players to be in NZ for a week...he had obviously decided he was going to play another 10 this weekend before releasing Russell.

My take on this is that I am 99% sure Francis, Gareth and Russell will get on for the last 15-20 mins...so triggering notable payments to their union...Dacey, Allen and Hill will only see game time if someone is injured.

The plan is to release all 6 after next weekend...however I am also sure Gats will take stock of the total squad after that 1st test and adjust his call ups accordingly. All home Nations will have finished the summer tours too.
I think this is why he hasn't yet replaced Hogg and Moriarty, he's just waiting to see how the next 2 games go.


Hill and Dacey on the bench to face Chiefs.


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:35am
I thought the 6 call ups are there for more than a week as they will cover the midweek game on the 27th as well.


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:59am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.



You'd call Gray up to sit on the bench and be part of the camp for a week?


Why not Wil. Are you really advocating that Gatlands decision makes sense? What will happen if Lawes breaks down & one of the top 3 locks gets injured? Gatland will then, if my understanding of your rationale is correct, call up Launchbury or Grey & send Corey Hill home. Surely you do not select a Lion based on being bench fodder. Gatland has done the Lions brand a great disservice. He could have called up Launchbury immediately after the Argentina 1st test as he will have known his plans. 


Dacey, Allen and Hill are nothing but bench fodder, and for one game,surely they haven't been called up based on any merit?

Also if I was Townsend or Eddie Jones, and Gats asked for a few players from their squads for a week, whilst they also had an international fixture coming up this weekend, I think I would politely tell him where to go.

It's a real concern that Wales have released 4 players that started last weekend, ok maybe Dacey and Hill wouldn't have started this weekend, but releasing Gareth and Francis means rookie starters at 3 and 9, add that to Cuthy going home, and the squad looks very light on experience, with Samoa a better team than Tonga.

Regarding call ups...its interesting how he hasn't called anyone up to replace Hogg and Moriarty.
Does he have a plan...of course he has. (See my post above for my opinion)
That doesn't mean I agree with it of course. But I can distinguish between the dialogue around de-valuing the shirt, and having a game plan.




Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

I thought the 6 call ups are there for more than a week as they will cover the midweek game on the 27th as well.


1 week according to Gats at his presser.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 9:04am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

But if say 2 or maybe one lock gets injured Hill will no doubt stay there- only a 7 day stint if every one else stays fit.


I suppose Hill could stay, but I'm not sure, but why wouldn't Gats call up one of the Grays too if a 2nd row is injured?
All rows are still on tour right now.
No way on Gods green earth is Hill going to start a game for the Lions.

Also Scotland still have Fiji this coming weekend...If I was Townsend I would block a drain of his starting players to be in NZ for a week...he had obviously decided he was going to play another 10 this weekend before releasing Russell.

My take on this is that I am 99% sure Francis, Gareth and Russell will get on for the last 15-20 mins...so triggering notable payments to their union...Dacey, Allen and Hill will only see game time if someone is injured.

The plan is to release all 6 after next weekend...however I am also sure Gats will take stock of the total squad after that 1st test and adjust his call ups accordingly. All home Nations will have finished the summer tours too.
I think this is why he hasn't yet replaced Hogg and Moriarty, he's just waiting to see how the next 2 games go.


Hill and Dacey on the bench to face Chiefs.


Yes, all 6 called up are on the bench.


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 10:42am
To further muddy the waters, AWJ is also on the bench on tuesday. So which of Hill and AWJ goes on if there is an early replacement required? And it's not as simple an answer as one might think if one is trying to protect AWJ for the saturday.

I'm not sure I get the undermining of the Lions scenario. There have always been Lions whose selection was dubious- to mention one from us- Peter Morgan. Did he deserve a Lions selection? And there used to be an honourable tradition of Lions selection before you won your first cap- both Delme and Derek Q played tests for the Lions before they played tests for Wales.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 10:54am
Lawes has just passed a HIA today so I guess AWJ was he man to cover the bench...it pretty much also means he wont be starting the first test ( Itoje on Kruis there I think)...neither will Sanjay.


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Lawes has just passed a HIA today so I guess AWJ was he man to cover the bench...it pretty much also means he wont be starting the first test ( Itoje on Kruis there I think)...neither will Sanjay.


So Lawes on the bench but it still seems that they should have called up a back-row either instead of or as well as Hill? Any one for Barclay?


Posted By: LLANDRE
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 11:53am
Any international playing for the home unions on tour at the moment would want to play for the Lions even if it were for ten minutes. The international coaches have always respected that and released accordingly. There should have been a stand by list as usual.   Ryan Jones and Easterby played well on the 2005 tour having not been part of the original party. . He's a New Zealander at the end of the day.

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West is Best (Fin gwybod)


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 12:27pm
On form AWJ to be on bench Kurtis and Itoje playing at different level at moment but he is some replacement. Very strong bench with Warburton And Ken.

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Kentexile
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:05pm
Hill and possibly Dacey provided cover for the Uk training camps . So whilst others are ahead of them in terms of ability they know the calls as well as being in the right time zone

As for devaluing the Lions tradition, the only tradition the Liions have in New Zealand is losing Test Series so if this helps make a difference good luck to Garland


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Kentexile Kentexile wrote:

Hill and possibly Dacey provided cover for the Uk training camps . So whilst others are ahead of them in terms of ability they know the calls as well as being in the right time zone

As for devaluing the Lions tradition, the only tradition the Liions have in New Zealand is losing Test Series so if this helps make a difference good luck to Garland


And that's the point- win the test series and everything else is forgotten.....


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They've been called up to sit on the bench this midweek game. The inference is that they won't get on unless there is an injury. And if they don't get on, they're not Lions. This is to enable the test 23 to not be involved midweek and to prepare for the test without distractions.

Thus far it makes sense but the Hill over Gray selection is inexplainable.



You'd call Gray up to sit on the bench and be part of the camp for a week?


Why not Wil. Are you really advocating that Gatlands decision makes sense? What will happen if Lawes breaks down & one of the top 3 locks gets injured? Gatland will then, if my understanding of your rationale is correct, call up Launchbury or Grey & send Corey Hill home. Surely you do not select a Lion based on being bench fodder. Gatland has done the Lions brand a great disservice. He could have called up Launchbury immediately after the Argentina 1st test as he will have known his plans. 


Dacey, Allen and Hill are nothing but bench fodder, and for one game,surely they haven't been called up based on any merit?

Also if I was Townsend or Eddie Jones, and Gats asked for a few players from their squads for a week, whilst they also had an international fixture coming up this weekend, I think I would politely tell him where to go.

It's a real concern that Wales have released 4 players that started last weekend, ok maybe Dacey and Hill wouldn't have started this weekend, but releasing Gareth and Francis means rookie starters at 3 and 9, add that to Cuthy going home, and the squad looks very light on experience, with Samoa a better team than Tonga.

Regarding call ups...its interesting how he hasn't called anyone up to replace Hogg and Moriarty.
Does he have a plan...of course he has. (See my post above for my opinion)
That doesn't mean I agree with it of course. But I can distinguish between the dialogue around de-valuing the shirt, and having a game plan.



Thats an interesting slant on the episode Wil. Time will tell if he has a masterplan or is just not as clever as he seems to think.


Posted By: najbritcol
Date Posted: 18 June 2017 at 9:22pm
I am concerned about the lack of experience in the Welsh team too, but who said anything about Samoa being a better team than Tonga?  The former were beaten 78-0 by the All Blacks (yes I know that second-string Wales are rather different to first-string NZ, but still) and are actually ranked below Tonga in the current world rankings.



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