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Welsh derbies

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Topic: Welsh derbies
Posted By: Rhys
Subject: Welsh derbies
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 12:32pm
According to Wales online the new Pro14 will be split into two conferences and we will only play Ospreys once, home or away.



Replies:
Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 1:01pm
We really need this Pro12 initiative to fail unfortunately. It is killing every ounce of momentum the domestic game in Wales has. Which wasn't much to begin with.

Perhaps then, a proper competition can be implemented.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 1:02pm
If there is a two conference system, there's 5 league home games (& away) to be replaced by something else.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: ChrisX
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 1:19pm
one step forward, 10 back - we cant lose Scarlets v Ospreys from a fixture list surely!!! 


Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 1:25pm
It definitely feels like selling you're soul and dumping on your real power base, in order to make a quick buck from elsewhere.


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by ScarletSpiderman ScarletSpiderman wrote:

It definitely feels like selling you're soul and dumping on your real power base, in order to make a quick buck from elsewhere.

Yeah its like moffet and 2003 all over again.

Groundhog day.


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Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 2:21pm
there is no way one extra game against a bunch of saffers, who are only in the league to gain european contracts elsewhere, are worth halving our fixture list for!

Its taken since 2003 to finally start building luke warm rivalries with the Irish and Scottish teams to replace the games v Ponty etc.

Now we wanna start again?

14 team league home and away. 

In the meantime send Llanelli rfc into the English system. 


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Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 2:26pm
I'll still not believe they are joining till they play their first Pro 14 game and, like much of what WOL say I'll take this with a big dose of sales.

The best Cheetahs and Kings players will move to the other Super Rugby sides and, on that basis, where is this £10m extra TV and sponsorship money going to come from?,


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

We really need this Pro12 initiative to fail unfortunately. It is killing every ounce of momentum the domestic game in Wales has. Which wasn't much to begin with.

Perhaps then, a proper competition can be implemented.


Like what exactly? People bemoaning the lack of welsh fixtures, do you or they want to go back to a welsh league and play Ponty and Poola etc.

The game has gone professional, its all about the money.

People are saying this new league is a dog's dinner, they're spot on as it happens, but so is the current league. The only differance is that next season's dog's dinner will provide us with more revenue. It's not about what the paying fans want, hasnt been for years, just look at fixture times. Its about TV revenue, end of.


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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: PE SA
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 3:27pm
Currently, all Pro12 teams get a £1m each per year from TV revenue.
Inclusion of SA sides will make this figure jump by £8m PER SIDE per season. Makes total financial sense.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Currently, all Pro12 teams get a £1m each per year from TV revenue.
Inclusion of SA sides will make this figure jump by £8m PER SIDE per season. Makes total financial sense.
PER SIDE?

😎💰😁💰😎💰😎🍻🍾

Thought it was Total to be split amongst the 12 or 14 participants.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Currently, all Pro12 teams get a £1m each per year from TV revenue.
Inclusion of SA sides will make this figure jump by £8m PER SIDE per season. Makes total financial sense.
There is no way we're going to be getting £8m more per team each season from the deal. The estimated figure was somewhere between £500-800k

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Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Currently, all Pro12 teams get a £1m each per year from TV revenue.
Inclusion of SA sides will make this figure jump by £8m PER SIDE per season. Makes total financial sense.
There is no way we're going to be getting £8m more per team each season from the deal. The estimated figure was somewhere between £500-800k
Sorry i'n going to have to respond to this again, are you saying you think this SA  tv deal is worth £100m to add to the some £12m the league is currently getting?

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Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 3:59pm
The way the two groups are likely to be lined up we'd have easier fixtures if we had come second ironically.


Posted By: hoppy
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 4:09pm
If this proposal of a new league system goes ahead I can see fans staying away splitting the Welsh teams up and losing Welsh derbies absolute madness

And also read about South African sides coming to play in Anglo Welsh Cup


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

We really need this Pro12 initiative to fail unfortunately. It is killing every ounce of momentum the domestic game in Wales has. Which wasn't much to begin with.

Perhaps then, a proper competition can be implemented.


Like what exactly? People bemoaning the lack of welsh fixtures, do you or they want to go back to a welsh league and play Ponty and Poola etc.

The game has gone professional, its all about the money.

People are saying this new league is a dog's dinner, they're spot on as it happens, but so is the current league. The only differance is that next season's dog's dinner will provide us with more revenue. It's not about what the paying fans want, hasnt been for years, just look at fixture times. Its about TV revenue, end of.



A British and Irish League.

Out of chaos comes order.


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 4:52pm
The current league is just fine except for the scheduling of fixtures. It's far from broken only need a bit of tweaking.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Rhys Rhys wrote:

According to Wales online the new Pro14 will be split into two conferences and we will only play Ospreys once, home or away.

oh deary deary me what a dreadful idea

just keep the league in full home and away there are enough weekends available


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: PE SA
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Currently, all Pro12 teams get a £1m each per year from TV revenue.
Inclusion of SA sides will make this figure jump by £8m PER SIDE per season. Makes total financial sense.
There is no way we're going to be getting £8m more per team each season from the deal. The estimated figure was somewhere between £500-800k
Sorry i'n going to have to respond to this again, are you saying you think this SA  tv deal is worth £100m to add to the some £12m the league is currently getting?

Apologies. Remembered wrong! Sponsorship is what will be rising to £9m from £1m per season as well as increased tv revenue.


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

We really need this Pro12 initiative to fail unfortunately. It is killing every ounce of momentum the domestic game in Wales has. Which wasn't much to begin with.

Perhaps then, a proper competition can be implemented.


Like what exactly? People bemoaning the lack of welsh fixtures, do you or they want to go back to a welsh league and play Ponty and Poola etc.

The game has gone professional, its all about the money.

People are saying this new league is a dog's dinner, they're spot on as it happens, but so is the current league. The only differance is that next season's dog's dinner will provide us with more revenue. It's not about what the paying fans want, hasnt been for years, just look at fixture times. Its about TV revenue, end of.



A British and Irish League.

Out of chaos comes order.


My preferred choice would be that we play in the English league. You can drive to all away matches then. Only snag is, they dont want us. Are we in discussions for a British and Irish League? Missed that one if we are.

There are no alternatives. Sorry, yes there is, we could say sod it and we'll go back to a semi pro welsh league:- Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Ponty, Merthyr, RGC, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, Aberavon, Bridgend and Neath. Mind you we wouldnt have many star players as they'll all be playing in England or France. Because the only revenue we'd have would be the peanuts BBC and S4C pay. We wouldnt then play Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Glasgow, SA franchise, USA franchise etc. Loads of welsh derbies though.Smile





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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

We really need this Pro12 initiative to fail unfortunately. It is killing every ounce of momentum the domestic game in Wales has. Which wasn't much to begin with.

Perhaps then, a proper competition can be implemented.


Like what exactly? People bemoaning the lack of welsh fixtures, do you or they want to go back to a welsh league and play Ponty and Poola etc.

The game has gone professional, its all about the money.

People are saying this new league is a dog's dinner, they're spot on as it happens, but so is the current league. The only differance is that next season's dog's dinner will provide us with more revenue. It's not about what the paying fans want, hasnt been for years, just look at fixture times. Its about TV revenue, end of.



A British and Irish League.

Out of chaos comes order.


My preferred choice would be that we play in the English league. You can drive to all away matches then. Only snag is, they dont want us. Are we in discussions for a British and Irish League? Missed that one if we are.

There are no alternatives. Sorry, yes there is, we could say sod it and we'll go back to a semi pro welsh league:- Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Ponty, Merthyr, RGC, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, Aberavon, Bridgend and Neath. Mind you we wouldnt have many star players as they'll all be playing in England or France. Because the only revenue we'd have would be the peanuts BBC and S4C pay. We wouldnt then play Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Glasgow, SA franchise, USA franchise etc. Loads of welsh derbies though.Smile


Exactly Tim, you're spot on. The only times the English clubs have shown an interest in Welsh sides is when they've wanted a bargaining chip to leverage more money. The prospects of of an Anglo Welsh or British & Irish league seem very distant indeed.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 6:05pm
To be fair the English have also suggested bringing Welsh regions/clubs in to help with our bargaining - but IMO a British and Irish league system will never happen unfortunately. The Aviva is doing too well and that is not looking like changing any time soon.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

The way the two groups are likely to be lined up we'd have easier fixtures if we had come second ironically.
It was how the league ended pre-playoffs, I read, so you'd think 2nd & 4th would look fairly similar.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

The only times the English clubs have shown an interest in Welsh sides is when they've wanted a bargaining chip to leverage more money.


Which is how the Welsh sides should be. If only we had the clout.

Professional rugby isn't a charity.


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 8:12pm
The Wales Online article appears flawed as well. They speak of a 21 game total. 7 in a conference playing each other home and away = 12 games. Play the 7 in the other Conferance that's 19. Which leaves scope for 2 further Derby games doesnt it? So we would effectively play Blues home and away in our conferance, play the Ospreys and Dragons as part of the 7 and then play the Ospreys and Dragons as the extra 2 games. So we end up with the same 6 derby games anyway dont we?

So another sensational headlined story from the Fail that has caused concern which is really a load of bollox.


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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:


The Wales Online article appears flawed as well. They speak of a 21
game total. 7 in a conference playing each other home and away = 12 games. Play the 7 in the other Conferance that's 19.
Which leaves scope for 2 further Derby games doesnt it? So we would
effectively play Blues home and away in our conferance, play the Ospreys and Dragons as part of the 7 and then play the Ospreys and Dragons as the extra 2 games. So we end up with the same 6 derby games anyway dont we?

So another sensational headlined story from the Fail that has caused concern which is really a load of bollox.


Yeah they also say play offs will be 1st in A v 2nd in B, yet everywhere else says top team goes to the semi-final and 2nd 3rd in each conferance play against each other to see who makes the semis. Which would add up as it would then take the same amount of weekends as it does now.


Posted By: ScarletBear
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 8:35pm
My only hope is that the WRU are aiming to bring in the revenue, create enough interest to attract the English owners and create a conference style British/Irish/Italian(?) League or even better pan European one, with sensible 4 team conferences. 4 Welsh, 4 Irish, 4 Scot/Ita, 4 Saffa, 4 NA, 12 English.

In other words, a medium term play.

Trying to convince myself.


Posted By: dantheman
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 8:42pm
Big response to what is a very sensationalist article. The Fail could have written about the extra 500-800k this deal would bring us, they could have written about the opportunity this allows us to access a new and rather large market. Instead they took a punt on what could be the biggest negative and went with that.

I say could because as far as I can tell, no fixtures have been confirmed, not even the deal has been confirmed yet. Instead the fail took the opportunity to put another dagger into the Welsh regional game.

For what it's worth I think the obvious long term result from the S.A. entry is the departure of the Italians once their deal expires. I'm not even sure Zebre are confirmed entrants next season, their players don't seem 100% sure....


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

The only times the English clubs have shown an interest in Welsh sides is when they've wanted a bargaining chip to leverage more money.


Which is how the Welsh sides should be. If only we had the clout.

Professional rugby isn't a charity.


For precisely that reason, that we do not have the clout or financial muscle of the English clubs, we cannot follow their model. Everyone is aware of the financials. For Welsh rugby to grow all party's in Wales have to work together. This extends across the celtic nations. We need each other. God there's a lot that could be better. Personally I'm slackjawed at what is going on with the Welsh Premiership at the moment, but hell, if the Pro12 goes hooters to the heavens the English won't be standing there with their arms open, ready to welcome us. We'll be back to professional club rugby in Wales and not a financial snowflakes chance in hell of it working.

I'm not having a personal dig at anyone here, but I just don't get the reasoning behind wanting to ditch the Pro12. I know there's loads wrong with it but I'd rather see effort going into making it better than trying to undermine it. If in the unlikely event that a British and Irish league was ever to be a serious proposal we'd be in a much better negotiating position if the Pro12 is as strong as it can possibly be made.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 16 July 2017 at 11:31pm
It's bringing more money in. We need more money. That trumps everything else.

I only hope they don't weaken the product long term. I have an open mind. At the end of the day I just want to see the Scarlets be able to produce a team and performances to be proud of here in West Wales. The means aren't as important.


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: Tumblescarlet67
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 12:22am
After reading all the comments on this topic it seems to me that some people really don't understand what all this is all about . It is not about the quality of the Pro 12   It is all about the finances , the survival of the league and its clubs .
All 4 Welsh regions are losing £1m due to the loss of the BT deal . All the Irish provinces are making losses , in fact the IRFU have told their provinces the present funding arrangements are in the long term unaffordable.
The English prem as recent as this morning have stated that they have no intention of adding anybody to their league after seeing what it has done to Super rugby , do there is no possibility in the near future of any type of British / Irish league .
So the bottom line is the Pro 12 hierarchy have had to look for income from somewhere else , this is not getting done on a whim , this is getting done on financial necessity and the sooner some wake up to that realisation the better .
Myself I am in the wait and see group of fans , I'm not happy , but what can o do ?, what can the Scarlets do ?,
All our hands are tied .


Posted By: 2ndtimeround
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 3:07am
But the best possible outcome would be the addition of the 2 teams to the league with the extra 4 games replacing the Anglo Welsh Cup that nobody watches anyway. Yes I realise this would mean more meaningful games been played during the international windows but at the end of the day every team is in the same boat and isn't this what the 2 richest leagues in Rugby do anyway?.
 Lets get the SA franchises on board and stick with a straight league format. we could finally have a product to match the Top 14.


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 5:36am
Not all is a bed of roses over the border huge debts most of clubs struggling for crowds even Saracens can only get 10,000 at their home ground. They get good money from TV but if we got into there league how much would we get and would it be sustainable without the huge backing most of their sides get from personal investment.
At the moment with the side we have we would be competitive but if we played in that league it would be easier for the rich boys to pick of our best talent with bigger pay packets. I would love nothing more than to play the English sides every week and the true English rugby fan would want the same but unfortunately we don't have the money or the local population to compete without a very rich sugar daddy to underwrite debt.


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Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 6:39am
This would mean that Judgement Day happens once every other year only  Would the additional £500k - £800k per year compensate for the loss of revenue to the Blues and Dragons who must make something of this order on JD.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Tumblescarlet67 Tumblescarlet67 wrote:

After reading all the comments on this topic it seems to me that some people really don't understand what all this is all about . It is not about the quality of the Pro 12   It is all about the finances , the survival of the league and its clubs .
All 4 Welsh regions are losing £1m due to the loss of the BT deal . All the Irish provinces are making losses , in fact the IRFU have told their provinces the present funding arrangements are in the long term unaffordable.
The English prem as recent as this morning have stated that they have no intention of adding anybody to their league after seeing what it has done to Super rugby , do there is no possibility in the near future of any type of British / Irish league .
So the bottom line is the Pro 12 hierarchy have had to look for income from somewhere else , this is not getting done on a whim , this is getting done on financial necessity and the sooner some wake up to that realisation the better .
Myself I am in the wait and see group of fans , I'm not happy , but what can o do ?, what can the Scarlets do ?,
All our hands are tied .

Put Llanelli Rugby Football Club into the English system.


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Posted By: bynea_bullet
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 1:00pm
I renewed my season ticket based on 11 home Pro12 games.
 
It will be interesting to see how many games this new look league will give us at home if it splits into 2 conferences.
 
Still a lot to be sorted out though. Personally I'd go for a 14 team league and wave goodbye to the LV Cup.
 
But thats just me.


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No costly hangers on please! We've a business to run!!


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 1:13pm
I'd prefer a straight 14 team league, all home and away. That would mean ditching the AW, and probably forming a Celtic A league with the Irish and Scots in order to provide a step up from the PP. 

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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

I'd prefer a straight 14 team league, all home and away. That would mean ditching the AW, and probably forming a Celtic A league with the Irish and Scots in order to provide a step up from the PP. 

Agreed.


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

I'd prefer a straight 14 team league, all home and away. That would mean ditching the AW, and probably forming a Celtic A league with the Irish and Scots in order to provide a step up from the PP. 

Agreed.

We won't get it though. LOL


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 3:31pm
Ditching another cross border competition we have with the English is not sensible. That competition is a good link and could be a valuable bargaining chip.


Posted By: PritchyTheScarlet
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Not all is a bed of roses over the border huge debts most of clubs struggling for crowds even Saracens can only get 10,000 at their home ground. They get good money from TV but if we got into there league how much would we get and would it be sustainable without the huge backing most of their sides get from personal investment.
At the moment with the side we have we would be competitive but if we played in that league it would be easier for the rich boys to pick of our best talent with bigger pay packets. I would love nothing more than to play the English sides every week and the true English rugby fan would want the same but unfortunately we don't have the money or the local population to compete without a very rich sugar daddy to underwrite debt.

Which clubs in the Premiership are struggling for crowds? Also, Saracens' capacity is 10,000, so they're filling their ground most games.


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Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 4:01pm
Potential could be for a PRW Cup during the International windows - developmental squads, of course, but there'd be 2 more home derbies in the season.

Or, moving away from derbies, how about... Welsh-Anglo Cup will be used as a second competition to include the SA teams - a revised (but still developmental) tournament with a key point of difference for English clubs and (significantly) greater scope for revenue due to TV potential in SA. As well as playing in Pro14, Cheetahs & Kings will also get fixtures (albeit prob only Away games at Welsh/English grounds) against England's top clubs, so easy for them to sell concept to SuperSports TV.

WIIFM?
Eng clubs - refreshed 2nd string competition including exotic new African teams*
SA - chance to play and televise* matches against top English clubs
Welsh pro teams - greater variety of opposition for development of squad, kudos for having facilitated new audiences/opposition*
*more 'ker-CHING!' for all parties

18 is an awkward number of clubs to work with, mind, assuming the 'pool' stages still have to be worked into 4 weekends - maybe bring in the Scots too, as SRU were most averse to Pro14 expansion with conferences? Could also then be a step closer to B&I league...

Still not sure if this is a can of worms or a can of peaches, but all parties will need a can-do attitude to make it work.



Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 5:04pm
Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps

So 10 or 11 home games, maximum one less than we get now. 
For a 50% increase in competition income and possibly a 9 day excursion to SA if we play both teams away. (We may only play the SA team in conference B at home)



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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 7:49pm
I thought the SA teams would play a majority of their games in Saracens.

I feel there has to be a lot discussions over the next 7 days before everything is sorted out.


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 8:03pm
Could be a bigger mess than Brexit.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 8:05pm
[QUOTE=PritchyTheScarlet] [QUOTE=Why]Not all is a bed of roses over the border huge debts most of clubs struggling for crowds even Saracens can only get 10,000 at their home ground. They get good money from TV but if we got into there league how much would we get and would it be sustainable without the huge backing most of their sides get from personal investment.
At the moment with the side we have we would be competitive but if we played in that league it would be easier for the rich boys to pick of our best talent with bigger pay packets. I would love nothing more than to play the English sides every week and the true English rugby fan would want the same but unfortunately we don't have the money or the local population to compete without a very rich sugar daddy to underwrite debt.
[/
Which clubs in the Premiership are struggling for crowds? Also, Saracens' capacity is 10,000, so they're filling their ground most game
L Irish Newcastle sale Worcester quins and wasps when they don't gives thousands away to schools


Posted By: Matty
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps

So 10 or 11 home games, maximum one less than we get now. 
For a 50% increase in competition income and possibly a 9 day excursion to SA if we play both teams away. (We may only play the SA team in conference B at home)



I really don't like this idea. I don't know the ins and outs, but from what I've read the following situation could play out.

We are placed in the same conference as the Blues. We each play every team in our conference home and away, then play the teams in the other conference once. Let's say after these results are in we are tied on points etc. Our extra game would be against Ospreys, but that would mean that Blues extra game is against Dragons - which is a much easier prospect. Blues could then finish above us purely because they've had an extra game against a weaker side.

Surely, a league cannot be fair unless everyone is playing the same teams.


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by PritchyTheScarlet PritchyTheScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Not all is a bed of roses over the border huge debts most of clubs struggling for crowds even Saracens can only get 10,000 at their home ground. They get good money from TV but if we got into there league how much would we get and would it be sustainable without the huge backing most of their sides get from personal investment.
At the moment with the side we have we would be competitive but if we played in that league it would be easier for the rich boys to pick of our best talent with bigger pay packets. I would love nothing more than to play the English sides every week and the true English rugby fan would want the same but unfortunately we don't have the money or the local population to compete without a very rich sugar daddy to underwrite debt.


Which clubs in the Premiership are struggling for crowds? Also, Saracens' capacity is 10,000, so they're filling their ground most games.

Most of the big clubs used to sell out week in week out not the case anymore most of the clubs losing money because of huge wage packets. The Pro 12 is knocked constantly but there has been improvement in quality over last five years and a far more open competition than Prem where only 1 of three maybe 4 teams are going to win it.
Saracens should be selling out a 10,000 capacity stadium bearing in mind location no other top class team for miles in a city of 8 million and their recent success.
If the SA teams were replacing the two Italian teams who have offered nothing to table since joining then I would be happier.

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Matty Matty wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps

So 10 or 11 home games, maximum one less than we get now. 
For a 50% increase in competition income and possibly a 9 day excursion to SA if we play both teams away. (We may only play the SA team in conference B at home)



I really don't like this idea. I don't know the ins and outs, but from what I've read the following situation could play out.

We are placed in the same conference as the Blues. We each play every team in our conference home and away, then play the teams in the other conference once. Let's say after these results are in we are tied on points etc. Our extra game would be against Ospreys, but that would mean that Blues extra game is against Dragons - which is a much easier prospect. Blues could then finish above us purely because they've had an extra game against a weaker side.

Surely, a league cannot be fair unless everyone is playing the same teams.
In terms of the Welsh teams - we will have all played each other twice so it will be fair but I get your point. 


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: Matty
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by Matty Matty wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps

So 10 or 11 home games, maximum one less than we get now. 
For a 50% increase in competition income and possibly a 9 day excursion to SA if we play both teams away. (We may only play the SA team in conference B at home)



I really don't like this idea. I don't know the ins and outs, but from what I've read the following situation could play out.

We are placed in the same conference as the Blues. We each play every team in our conference home and away, then play the teams in the other conference once. Let's say after these results are in we are tied on points etc. Our extra game would be against Ospreys, but that would mean that Blues extra game is against Dragons - which is a much easier prospect. Blues could then finish above us purely because they've had an extra game against a weaker side.

Surely, a league cannot be fair unless everyone is playing the same teams.

In terms of the Welsh teams - we will have all played each other twice so it will be fair but I get your point. 



OK thanks. Think I can see how that works out. But how does that work out with Scottish/Italian/SA teams?


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 17 July 2017 at 10:34pm
Need to get facts right. Wasps average last season in league was 19.5k and, althiugh they gave away lots of tickets when they moved moved to Coventry that's not really the case now. Quins seem to get 14k each game and I don't think give away any tickets for league matches. Newcastle average was 7k last year but is on the up. Sale poor yes. Worcester average of 8.8k which ain't bad for a side with no history of top level rugby before this century. So you can make a case that 2 out of 12 had poor crowds last year.

It's also not the case that crowds in premiership are going down. The average crowd is going up reach year even if big games at Twickenham and Wembley are discounted.

Still prefer watching us at Parc y Scarlets but it doesn't help debate if people use incorrect data. Grounds like at Bath. Northampton and Exeter have been enlarged which is why those clubs have less sell-outs now - more attending though


Posted By: ChrisX
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?

when did we last play dragons away? havnt played them at rodney parade for few seasons as its normally judgment day fixture?


Posted By: ExileTom
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by ChrisX ChrisX wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?


when did we last play dragons away? havnt played them at rodney parade for few seasons as its normally judgment day fixture?


Anglo-welsh cup last season. Before that it was before judgement day started


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 1:08pm
Pretty sure we've played them once not on judgment day since it began, can't understand why it didn't rotate? Just checked and it was the second one where we lost Cardiff, so we played dragons away then.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?
No. That was just an example of home games. 
There will be 2 extra derbies, so in that example the other one would be Drags Away - Either Judgement Day or at RP


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Matty Matty wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by Matty Matty wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps

So 10 or 11 home games, maximum one less than we get now. 
For a 50% increase in competition income and possibly a 9 day excursion to SA if we play both teams away. (We may only play the SA team in conference B at home)



I really don't like this idea. I don't know the ins and outs, but from what I've read the following situation could play out.

We are placed in the same conference as the Blues. We each play every team in our conference home and away, then play the teams in the other conference once. Let's say after these results are in we are tied on points etc. Our extra game would be against Ospreys, but that would mean that Blues extra game is against Dragons - which is a much easier prospect. Blues could then finish above us purely because they've had an extra game against a weaker side.

Surely, a league cannot be fair unless everyone is playing the same teams.

In terms of the Welsh teams - we will have all played each other twice so it will be fair but I get your point. 



OK thanks. Think I can see how that works out. But how does that work out with Scottish/Italian/SA teams?
They will play each other 3 times!


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?

No. That was just an example of home games. 
There will be 2 extra derbies, so in that example the other one would be Drags Away - Either Judgement Day or at RP


Ah right. So it looks like Glasgow will play Edinburgh 3 times a season and Treviso will play Zebre 3 times a season to make up the derby fixtures?

Fair play if the Pro12 are charging more money for this.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 3:16pm
I'm not sure anything looks like anything. I've no trust in any rumours there are on how a 14 team league world work out but I'd be amazed if what ever was agreed meant there were less derby matches. I still don't think it will happen. But if it does IMO they will look for inspiration from the Super Rugby system which, although it makes it harder for the Kiwi sides, ensures there are home and away derbies.


Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by ExileTom ExileTom wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisX ChrisX wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Home games will be:
6 home games in our conference including Cardiff home (and away)
3 or 4 home games against conference B including for example Drags home, Ospreys Away 
1 extra home derby against Osps



Does that mean that we would never play Dragons away? Or would we sometimes not play Ospreys at home?


when did we last play dragons away? havnt played them at rodney parade for few seasons as its normally judgment day fixture?


Anglo-welsh cup last season. Before that it was before judgement day started
 
No it wasn't. Last two Judgement Days have been Dragons, the one before was the Blues, which means we played the Dragons in the Pro12 at Dave Parade.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 6:27pm
Latest from the Beeb %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40649652

I have to say I'm very disappointed that we're going over to conferences. I think it's a terrible move.


Posted By: PTScarlet
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 6:40pm
So what happens, do we only play the teams who are in our conference?

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One eyed turk, nothing more nothing less.


Posted By: judith
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Latest from the Beeb %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40649652

I have to say I'm very disappointed that we're going over to conferences. I think it's a terrible move.


I don't like the conference system either. I don't mind trialling the Saffas and seeing how it goes (and obviously their cash is more than welcome) but surely stick us all in one big league and let us thrash it out. Also, how does European qualification work now then?

One word for this - smonach!


Posted By: ScarletBear
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 7:59pm
As the Italian 2 are the weakest, surely this benefits the Italians as they get 3 easier games, as opposed to 2 for the rest of us (Dragons notwithstanding).


Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 9:06pm
I have heard/read elsewhere in that hat the derby games against the other conference may be One that's the official league game and results stand in the conference, and one that is basically a friendly where the results don't matter one jot. I'm hoping this is not the case, but unfortunately it would make good sense from a league point of view as it means no tweaking stuff to balance the fact there's 4 of us and the Irish but only 2 of the others.


Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by ScarletSpiderman ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I have heard/read elsewhere in that hat the derby games against the other conference may be One that's the official league game and results stand in the conference, and one that is basically a friendly where the results don't matter one jot. I'm hoping this is not the case, but unfortunately it would make good sense from a league point of view as it means no tweaking stuff to balance the fact there's 4 of us and the Irish but only 2 of the others.
Wasp is tweeting from the Crys meeting, extra derbies will not be friendlies and will count toward league table. 

Also tweeted that recruitment is done for this season, not sure if that means we've announced everything or not....


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Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by ScarletSpiderman ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I have heard/read elsewhere in that hat the derby games against the other conference may be One that's the official league game and results stand in the conference, and one that is basically a friendly where the results don't matter one jot. I'm hoping this is not the case, but unfortunately it would make good sense from a league point of view as it means no tweaking stuff to balance the fact there's 4 of us and the Irish but only 2 of the others.

Wasp is tweeting from the Crys meeting, extra derbies will not be friendlies and will count toward league table. 

Also tweeted that recruitment is done for this season, not sure if that means we've announced everything or not....


Brilliant news thanks 🙏


Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 9:12pm
All player signings have been announced for the coming season.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 July 2017 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by judith judith wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Latest from the Beeb %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40649652

I have to say I'm very disappointed that we're going over to conferences. I think it's a terrible move.


I don't like the conference system either. I don't mind trialling the Saffas and seeing how it goes (and obviously their cash is more than welcome) but surely stick us all in one big league and let us thrash it out. Also, how does European qualification work now then?

One word for this - smonach!


It's a 4king smonach! I'm genuinely worried about how this could turn out.


Posted By: mammamammon
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 7:25am
What a potch

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mammamammon

www.hopemalawiuk.com


Posted By: Once a monkey
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 8:22am
Nigel Short pointed out that under the current deal with the ERC, the Saffer teams would not be eligible for Europe until 2021/22

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#George


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:26pm
These south african fixtures mean as much to the average Scarlet fan as the fixtures against Connaught and the Italian teams.

Hardly a fixture list to get the blood boiling is it?

I would feel conned if i was an early bird st purchaser.


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Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 7:02pm
Connacht are a pretty good challenge and have beaten us quite a few times as have the Italians. We are good at the moment but let's not get carried away.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 11:22pm
This is all just very bizarre....Did i also understand that bit right, the springbok sides can enter the european cup in a few years?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 19 July 2017 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

These south african fixtures mean as much to the average Scarlet fan as the fixtures against Connaught and the Italian teams.

Hardly a fixture list to get the blood boiling is it?

I would feel conned if i was an early bird st purchaser.


Did you get a £75 one?


Posted By: Sosban89
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 12:09am
I think the SA teams will be pretty competitive.


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 7:48am
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

These south african fixtures mean as much to the average Scarlet fan as the fixtures against Connaught and the Italian teams.

Hardly a fixture list to get the blood boiling is it?

I would feel conned if i was an early bird st purchaser.


Did you get a £75 one?

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

Theyve really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

Now if you told me Llanelli rfc was being place in the bottom of the english system. I would be there evey week.




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Posted By: Dafen Boy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 8:26am
I admire the Pro12 for thinking outside the box and trying to increase media revenue. Hope it works.


Posted By: Realwest
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 8:33am
Is it correct that we will recieve an extra £500,000 a year, because if it is then its well worth it , would thst be best spent on our debt , how much do we owe out


Posted By: Sosban89
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

These south african fixtures mean as much to the average Scarlet fan as the fixtures against Connaught and the Italian teams.

Hardly a fixture list to get the blood boiling is it?

I would feel conned if i was an early bird st purchaser.


Did you get a £75 one?

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

Theyve really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

Now if you told me Llanelli rfc was being place in the bottom of the english system. I would be there evey week.




from what I've read we should still be playing roughly the same number of games and will play each of the other 13 teams at least once. not a huge difference just the structure.


Posted By: ScarletSpiderman
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

These south african fixtures mean as much to the average Scarlet fan as the fixtures against Connaught and the Italian teams.

Hardly a fixture list to get the blood boiling is it?

I would feel conned if i was an early bird st purchaser.


Did you get a £75 one?

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

Theyve really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

Now if you told me Llanelli rfc was being place in the bottom of the english system. I would be there evey week.




from what I've read we should still be playing roughly the same number of games and will play each of the other 13 teams at least once. not a huge difference just the structure.
 
It is the lost of the grand total of one match, and there is a chance that could be an away game too.
 
I am far from being a fan of this system, but it is here now, time to get behind the boys and support them rather than grumping about it.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:31am
But is it here now? Good progress being made during talks is the official line


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:36am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

This is all just very bizarre....Did i also understand that bit right, the springbok sides can enter the european cup in a few years?


I take that to mean that under the existing agreement there would not even a possibility of them playing in the European competition until then but I would be amazed if they were ever allowed to play in them after 21/22 either. The rest of the European Nations would not like that and it would mean potentially two less Celtic nation teams in the competition so it would need heaps of money to ever get that as being a possibility in my opinion


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

This is all just very bizarre....Did i also understand that bit right, the springbok sides can enter the european cup in a few years?


I take that to mean that under the existing agreement there would not even a possibility of them playing in the European competition until then but I would be amazed if they were ever allowed to play in them after 21/22 either. The rest of the European Nations would not like that and it would mean potentially two less Celtic nation teams in the competition so it would need heaps of money to ever get that as being a possibility in my opinion


Sounds spot on assessment to me. Remember this was an informal Q and A covering local stuff to the big future picture which has some gaps . We just have to wait to see what happens this season . It could not be worse than the Italian teams.


Posted By: AstroScarlet
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

I think the SA teams will be pretty competitive.

They will be, especially at home. Bloemfontein in December with the heat and altitude will be something not many will have experienced before! 


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'Stand up at home if you're watching, that was one of the Heineken Cup great tries'


Posted By: PearlJam
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

They've really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

This isn't the work of the Scarlets, mind? You're not punishing the league by being disinterested, you're basically just not giving your money to the Scarlets to retain and produce local talent. If it's a protest, it's one that's self-wounding. 

The league structure doesn't particularly appeal to me either, but that's not the point. It's about making sure the club stays afloat - by whatever means I can with my pitiful contribution to a season ticket, shirt and pie-and-a-pint at each game.

No offence, but if your mentality was applied more widely the club would have been dead and buried a long time ago.


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If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

They've really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

This isn't the work of the Scarlets, mind? You're not punishing the league by being disinterested, you're basically just not giving your money to the Scarlets to retain and produce local talent. If it's a protest, it's one that's self-wounding. 

The league structure doesn't particularly appeal to me either, but that's not the point. It's about making sure the club stays afloat - by whatever means I can with my pitiful contribution to a season ticket, shirt and pie-and-a-pint at each game.

No offence, but if your mentality was applied more widely the club would have been dead and buried a long time ago.

Forgive me, but i value my time and money too high to piss it away being dictated to by idiots who cant run the proverbial knees up.

All this to skirt around the important questions, the important accountability.

We hear all these soundbites from howley, gatland etc, and the pro 12.

"we cant compete with England and france bla bla bla"

Then everyone just accepts that and passively, doesn't hold anyone to account for their glaring business failures.

There are huge questions that need asking about the strategy and wisdom in so much of the pro 12s running of the league. 

Why, when they were already behind the gainline and playing catchup, did they tie one hand behind their backs, by insisting on going to terrestial tv?

Why cant the pro 12 get the same level tv deals as the English and French?

Because they are poorly run thats why. England and France are showing them up.
Yet their only response is to copy the Moffet mantra and paint them out to be the villains.

Their solution? Lets mask over the fact we cant run a league effectivley against our competitors, and nip down the rugby scrap yard, and duck tape 2 saffer teams into our system,2 teams that dont really fit and dont share the one unifying quality the celtic and italians had together, which was player welfare.

Thus getting someone else to top up their failings to make them look slightly less catastrophic.




aaaaand breathe.


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Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 2:09pm
My love for the Scarlets is a precious thing. I will never allow the pro 14 to take it for granted. Or anyone else for that matter.

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Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by AstroScarlet AstroScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

I think the SA teams will be pretty competitive.

They will be, especially at home. Bloemfontein in December with the heat and altitude will be something not many will have experienced before! 

Maybe.

But do we really care?Confused


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Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Why cant the pro 12 get the same level tv deals as the English and French?


We've been told on here that it's because the money that tv channels charge at half time for adverts is worth much more for Aviva Premeirship and Top14 games.


Posted By: ScarletBear
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 3:11pm
I see this as a step towards a Western hemisphere league. The only way we can compete against France and England who are driving all this. They have won out.



Posted By: PearlJam
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Then everyone just accepts that and passively, doesn't hold anyone to account for their glaring business failures.

Their solution? Lets mask over the fact we cant run a league effectivley against our competitors, and nip down the rugby scrap yard, and duck tape 2 saffer teams into our system,2 teams that dont really fit and dont share the one unifying quality the celtic and italians had together, which was player welfare.

Thus getting someone else to top up their failings to make them look slightly less catastrophic.

But this new proposal gives us an extra £500k a year, apparently from TV revenues. Short of a British & Irish league, I'm at a loss as to what else can be done in the short-term. This is a short-term improvement - financially - to our revenue stream for this year. 

We (the Scarlets) haven't done anything for this, the Pro12 have. This isn't me defending them, but clearly this is a quick-fix reform that has defined benefits. It may not be a long term panacea for our ailments - a non-competitive league, no traveling support, poor TV deal - but it's a boost for next year. 

I'm not questioning your logic, but I just get exasperated with the short-term thinking of fans. Every season my old man says "I'm not renewing if we don't sign so and so or we don't improve" which is a complete fallacy, as the lack of sales will dictate a lack of improvement. Likewise holding out on a season ticket won't help.



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If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 4:14pm
It has been decided, some are being totally blinkered in their attitude, which they have the right to be, not necessarily right but it is a free world.

We hate change, and if anything should be learned from last season, is WE MUST CHANGE. We did last year and looked what happened.

A new league set up should be approached as a new challenge, and we adapt, both on and off the field, so we may not be happy but lets carry on and be the last team who won the Pro 12, and the first to win Pro 14


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

I think the SA teams will be pretty competitive.


A poor Southern Hemisphere team will be as good maybe even better than a pro12/14 team.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Then everyone just accepts that and passively, doesn't hold anyone to account for their glaring business failures.

Their solution? Lets mask over the fact we cant run a league effectivley against our competitors, and nip down the rugby scrap yard, and duck tape 2 saffer teams into our system,2 teams that dont really fit and dont share the one unifying quality the celtic and italians had together, which was player welfare.

Thus getting someone else to top up their failings to make them look slightly less catastrophic.

But this new proposal gives us an extra £500k a year, apparently from TV revenues. Short of a British & Irish league, I'm at a loss as to what else can be done in the short-term. This is a short-term improvement - financially - to our revenue stream for this year. 

We (the Scarlets) haven't done anything for this, the Pro12 have. This isn't me defending them, but clearly this is a quick-fix reform that has defined benefits. It may not be a long term panacea for our ailments - a non-competitive league, no traveling support, poor TV deal - but it's a boost for next year. 

I'm not questioning your logic, but I just get exasperated with the short-term thinking of fans. Every season my old man says "I'm not renewing if we don't sign so and so or we don't improve" which is a complete fallacy, as the lack of sales will dictate a lack of improvement. Likewise holding out on a season ticket won't help.


It depends on your definition of short term thinking, is it short term to totally transform a league this way or long term? I honestly dont know


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Then everyone just accepts that and passively, doesn't hold anyone to account for their glaring business failures.

Their solution? Lets mask over the fact we cant run a league effectivley against our competitors, and nip down the rugby scrap yard, and duck tape 2 saffer teams into our system,2 teams that dont really fit and dont share the one unifying quality the celtic and italians had together, which was player welfare.

Thus getting someone else to top up their failings to make them look slightly less catastrophic.

But this new proposal gives us an extra £500k a year, apparently from TV revenues. Short of a British & Irish league, I'm at a loss as to what else can be done in the short-term. This is a short-term improvement - financially - to our revenue stream for this year. 

We (the Scarlets) haven't done anything for this, the Pro12 have. This isn't me defending them, but clearly this is a quick-fix reform that has defined benefits. It may not be a long term panacea for our ailments - a non-competitive league, no traveling support, poor TV deal - but it's a boost for next year. 

I'm not questioning your logic, but I just get exasperated with the short-term thinking of fans. Every season my old man says "I'm not renewing if we don't sign so and so or we don't improve" which is a complete fallacy, as the lack of sales will dictate a lack of improvement. Likewise holding out on a season ticket won't help.

I am not saying there is an ultimatum of such sort from me, i hardly went last season, so i am not chucking my toys of of the pram. I am merely highlighting how quick fans are to question other fans, but yet that same microscopic detail of questioning goes strangley missing, when confronted with placid excuses of yet more failure from those running our league.

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Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

It has been decided, some are being totally blinkered in their attitude, which they have the right to be, not necessarily right but it is a free world.

We hate change, and if anything should be learned from last season, is WE MUST CHANGE. We did last year and looked what happened.

A new league set up should be approached as a new challenge, and we adapt, both on and off the field, so we may not be happy but lets carry on and be the last team who won the Pro 12, and the first to win Pro 14
This smack of desperation, blind hope, and rolls of dice.

Its on a par with our worth a punt signings.

I am all for change, trust me, its obvious that change is needed.

But the change has to emulate those trouncing us. Not skirt around the problem.

We have to tackle it head on. Compete.

The very rugby ethos dictates that you fight for every inch, every inch lost is an inch gained by the opposition.

But the passive attitude towards the marketing of our league is pathetic.

This latest development sends out all the wrong signals. They wont support the league properly. They will just rearrange the deckchairs again, and leave the clubs struggle to make anything out of it.

The clubs themselves should be negotiating this, the unions should be kept out of it.

Oh and it would be a pleasant change for meetings to be held in Cardiff for once.

Or is Dublin some sort of Celtic rugby Mecca, and i never got the memo?


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Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by PearlJam PearlJam wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

To be honest pal, the thought of a 7 team 2 conference system will barely get me watching on tv, let alone the ground. So any thought of a season ticket couldnt be further from my mind.

They've really messed up with this one. Its not going to make us any more competitive with the English and French.

This isn't the work of the Scarlets, mind? You're not punishing the league by being disinterested, you're basically just not giving your money to the Scarlets to retain and produce local talent. If it's a protest, it's one that's self-wounding. 

The league structure doesn't particularly appeal to me either, but that's not the point. It's about making sure the club stays afloat - by whatever means I can with my pitiful contribution to a season ticket, shirt and pie-and-a-pint at each game.

No offence, but if your mentality was applied more widely the club would have been dead and buried a long time ago.

Forgive me, but i value my time and money too high to piss it away being dictated to by idiots who cant run the proverbial knees up.

All this to skirt around the important questions, the important accountability.

We hear all these soundbites from howley, gatland etc, and the pro 12.

"we cant compete with England and france bla bla bla"

Then everyone just accepts that and passively, doesn't hold anyone to account for their glaring business failures.

There are huge questions that need asking about the strategy and wisdom in so much of the pro 12s running of the league. 

Why, when they were already behind the gainline and playing catchup, did they tie one hand behind their backs, by insisting on going to terrestial tv?

Why cant the pro 12 get the same level tv deals as the English and French?

Because they are poorly run thats why. England and France are showing them up.
Yet their only response is to copy the Moffet mantra and paint them out to be the villains.

Their solution? Lets mask over the fact we cant run a league effectivley against our competitors, and nip down the rugby scrap yard, and duck tape 2 saffer teams into our system,2 teams that dont really fit and dont share the one unifying quality the celtic and italians had together, which was player welfare.

Thus getting someone else to top up their failings to make them look slightly less catastrophic.




aaaaand breathe.
Because the combined population of the Celtic countries (the market) is about 15 million. Around 1/3rd of the population of England. And the average income of that 1/3 is also lower. So if you're selling subscriptions or advertising you'll pay more for the English league than the Celtic one.

South Africa has a lot of poor people, but also a lot of rich people. In terms of Spending power it's roughly equal to Scotland+Wales.

In terms of choice for expansion, as the English categorically don't want us this is a pretty shrewd move. Same time zone, supportive and reasonably wealthy union, proven interest in rugby etc. 



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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

It has been decided, some are being totally blinkered in their attitude, which they have the right to be, not necessarily right but it is a free world.

We hate change, and if anything should be learned from last season, is WE MUST CHANGE. We did last year and looked what happened.

A new league set up should be approached as a new challenge, and we adapt, both on and off the field, so we may not be happy but lets carry on and be the last team who won the Pro 12, and the first to win Pro 14

This smack of desperation, blind hope, and rolls of dice.

Its on a par with our worth a punt signings.

I am all for change, trust me, its obvious that change is needed.

But the change has to emulate those trouncing us. Not skirt around the problem.

We have to tackle it head on. Compete.

The very rugby ethos dictates that you fight for every inch, every inch lost is an inch gained by the opposition.

But the passive attitude towards the marketing of our league is pathetic.

This latest development sends out all the wrong signals. They wont support the league properly. They will just rearrange the deckchairs again, and leave the clubs struggle to make anything out of it.

The clubs themselves should be negotiating this, the unions should be kept out of it.

Oh and it would be a pleasant change for meetings to be held in Cardiff for once.

Or is Dublin some sort of Celtic rugby Mecca, and i never got the memo?


The Pro12 is based in London apparently.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

It has been decided, some are being totally blinkered in their attitude, which they have the right to be, not necessarily right but it is a free world.

We hate change, and if anything should be learned from last season, is WE MUST CHANGE. We did last year and looked what happened.

A new league set up should be approached as a new challenge, and we adapt, both on and off the field, so we may not be happy but lets carry on and be the last team who won the Pro 12, and the first to win Pro 14
This smack of desperation, blind hope, and rolls of dice.

Its on a par with our worth a punt signings.

I am all for change, trust me, its obvious that change is needed.

But the change has to emulate those trouncing us. Not skirt around the problem.

We have to tackle it head on. Compete.

The very rugby ethos dictates that you fight for every inch, every inch lost is an inch gained by the opposition.

But the passive attitude towards the marketing of our league is pathetic.

This latest development sends out all the wrong signals. They wont support the league properly. They will just rearrange the deckchairs again, and leave the clubs struggle to make anything out of it.

The clubs themselves should be negotiating this, the unions should be kept out of it.

Oh and it would be a pleasant change for meetings to be held in Cardiff for once.

Or is Dublin some sort of Celtic rugby Mecca, and i never got the memo?
I believe Mark Davies, for PRW, is part of the TV negotiations now.


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We're still still here, but I wish we were in an Anglo-Welsh



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