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Scarlets Supporters for Independence

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Category: SOCIAL
Forum Name: CHAT BOARD
Forum Description: No topics, just chat
URL: http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44720
Printed Date: 19 November 2018 at 3:47am
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Topic: Scarlets Supporters for Independence
Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Subject: Scarlets Supporters for Independence
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:01am
Hi everyone, some of you may or may not have seen on Facebook/Twitter but I’ve recently started a Scarlets supporters for independence group.

There are a few similar groups that have cropped up recently (Welsh football and rugby fans) so I thought as the Scarlets it would be pretty strange for us to not get involved! I’m aware that not every scarlet supports independence however so it’s important to say that the group doesn’t presume to speak for Scarlets supporters as a whole.

I have a season ticket and will make most home games this year although I’ll struggle at times due to money and work commitments. It would be really good to have some of the hardcore fans who make every game home and away on board. Plus anyone else who wants to, even if you only make one or two a year, the more the merrier! Would any of you be interested?

I thought an ideal date to meet up would be on the day of Leinster home, before the game, in New Dock Stars rfc? Where we can discuss what kind of stuff we can do going forward e.g. banners, marches etc.

Let me know your thoughts, diolch



Replies:
Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:03am
This is what I posted on Facebook and Twitter if anyone wants to know more:

Hi! Welcome to Scarlets Supporters for Independence, a group for any Scarlets who believe in independence for Wales from the United Kingdom.

There are various independence groups cropping up around the country right now, with many people feeling disillusioned with how Wales is being treated by the Westminster government and the ineptitude of the Welsh Assembly.

West Wales has always been a stronghold for this sentiment, and the Scarlets represent west Wales on an international stage. For many people, the Scarlets are synonymous with west Wales in the same way that rugby is synonymous with Wales. This gives us a fantastic platform to get our message into the public domain and make ourselves heard.

Despite the movement having made huge progress in the last 12 months alone, the media has given it little to no coverage. Sporting occasions are a time where the media are given no choice but to cover it, which is why sport is such an important platform and why we as Scarlets supporters have such a great opportunity.

Judging from the recent poll undertaken on the Scarlets Rugby Supporters' page, there is an overwhelming majority of support for independence. If we can translate this support into action, particularly on match-days, we could have a massively positive impact.

The aim of this group is to not be party-leaning in any way, but to unite people in the cause of independence for Wales. Left, right or centrist, anyone is welcome as long as they believe in the cause.

We will also not tolerate any racism, xenophobia, or incitement of hatred towards any group - we believe that for the Welsh independence movement to succeed, we need to be fully united regardless of background.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:13am
Moved to chat board as nothing to do with Scarlets.

Please post in the appropriate section. Thanks.

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https://twitter.com/Smallclone/status/985790016319315968" rel="nofollow - Top 25 European tries of all time


Posted By: Westwalian
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:36am
This is something I'd be interested in. Would be great to see if it gathers much momentum

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Defender of Priestland


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Westwalian Westwalian wrote:

This is something I'd be interested in. Would be great to see if it gathers much momentum


Inboxed you 👍🏼


Posted By: sreve19
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:28pm
Too political for a rugby forum. 😔


Posted By: diego6754
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔
 

ClapClapClap

Completely agree. I come on here to get away from politics. Wrong place whatever category it is in. Plus its sort of insinuates Scarlets supporters are for independence and uses the Scarlets brand to promote a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Scarlets, the fans or rugby in general.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔


I disagree, because I think sport and politics are intertwined whether we like it or not. We sing yma o hyd at every game.

I think this issue, political as it is, is more relevant to the Scarlets than any other sporting organisation in Wales.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔
 

ClapClapClap

Completely agree. I come on here to get away from politics. Wrong place whatever category it is in. Plus its sort of insinuates Scarlets supporters are for independence and uses the Scarlets brand to promote a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Scarlets, the fans or rugby in general.


Fair point, but I’ve already stated it doesn’t presume to speak for every Scarlets supporter. It has everything to do with the Scarlets for reasons I’ve previously mentioned. Sport is political whether we like it or not. It should never overshadow the game itself and nothing this group does would ever aim to do that


Posted By: diego6754
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔
 

ClapClapClap

Completely agree. I come on here to get away from politics. Wrong place whatever category it is in. Plus its sort of insinuates Scarlets supporters are for independence and uses the Scarlets brand to promote a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Scarlets, the fans or rugby in general.


Fair point, but I’ve already stated it doesn’t presume to speak for every Scarlets supporter. It has everything to do with the Scarlets for reasons I’ve previously mentioned. Sport is political whether we like it or not. It should never overshadow the game itself and nothing this group does would ever aim to do that
 

We'll agree to disagree on this cause my ideology of sport is that it isn't political at all, sport should bring people together, no matter what creed, colour, social standing or any other demographic you can think of. Sport is not a place for devisive self interest. Sport is the game of footy between armys in no mans land, its the coming together of four nations as the B&I lions, its chatting crap to someone who can be so different to you in background and beliefs but it doesn't matter cause you share a passion for one thing. Sport is no place for politics. Sorry.


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔

So this is too political yet we have a brexit thread going for pages and pages? It may have been started I the wrong section but it's a topic that's welcome as is other non rugby content.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔
 

ClapClapClap

Completely agree. I come on here to get away from politics. Wrong place whatever category it is in. Plus its sort of insinuates Scarlets supporters are for independence and uses the Scarlets brand to promote a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Scarlets, the fans or rugby in general.


Fair point, but I’ve already stated it doesn’t presume to speak for every Scarlets supporter. It has everything to do with the Scarlets for reasons I’ve previously mentioned. Sport is political whether we like it or not. It should never overshadow the game itself and nothing this group does would ever aim to do that
 

We'll agree to disagree on this cause my ideology of sport is that it isn't political at all, sport should bring people together, no matter what creed, colour, social standing or any other demographic you can think of. Sport is not a place for devisive self interest. Sport is the game of footy between armys in no mans land, its the coming together of four nations as the B&I lions, its chatting crap to someone who can be so different to you in background and beliefs but it doesn't matter cause you share a passion for one thing. Sport is no place for politics. Sorry.

Why can't it do both? Like I've said, the aim isn't to overshadow the events on the field, nor is it to cause division between fans of either sets of supporters, least of all our own. 

Yet you can't deny sport is political. Countries are political entities, arguably the most historic and intense rivalry in rugby is Wales and England, and this rivalry is intensified due to political history (amongst other things of course, I'm not saying sport is purely political, but it is a combination of the two). 

Liverpool and Manchester United, two of the most famous football clubs in the world, are rivals in big part due to the Manchester Shipping Canal being built. Politics. Real (Royal) Madrid and Barcelona, Catalonia vs. Spanish Royal Family. Politics. Sport wouldn't be as interesting without it. 

And whether you like it or not, the Scarlets' official anthem is Yma O Hyd, a song that is literally about politics. You can't sing about Maggie Thatcher at every Scarlets game and then claim rugby isn't at least in part political. 

People balk at the mention of politics sometimes without realising that it makes up the fabric of who we are.



Posted By: Owen111
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔

So this is too political yet we have a brexit thread going for pages and pages? It may have been started I the wrong section but it's a topic that's welcome as is other non rugby content.

T H I S


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:30pm
So what about the many English fans I’m already in the dog house with my English wife for having to get premier sports!!!


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

So what about the many English fans I’m already in the dog house with my English wife for having to get premier sports!!!


I know a ton of English people who are pro Welsh independence, it’s a pro wales movement not an anti-England one


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:

Originally posted by sreve19 sreve19 wrote:

Too political for a rugby forum. 😔
 

ClapClapClap

Completely agree. I come on here to get away from politics. Wrong place whatever category it is in. Plus its sort of insinuates Scarlets supporters are for independence and uses the Scarlets brand to promote a movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Scarlets, the fans or rugby in general.


Fair point, but I’ve already stated it doesn’t presume to speak for every Scarlets supporter. It has everything to do with the Scarlets for reasons I’ve previously mentioned. Sport is political whether we like it or not. It should never overshadow the game itself and nothing this group does would ever aim to do that


I think the danger is the Scarlets association. It's fine when it's something you agree with but if there was a 'Scarlets supporters for the right to bear arms' group, then there would possibly be controversy despite it being completely within the law.

I think you'll just have to tread carefully due to this association, as has been said previously in the thread.

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https://twitter.com/Smallclone/status/985790016319315968" rel="nofollow - Top 25 European tries of all time


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:37pm
If you don’t like it ignore it. It’s not hard to do.


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 2:16pm
Great idea! Always fancied living in a cave and foraging for food to stay alive.
We can use our spare time to build a wall between us and England and develop our own defence weapons. Spears and bows and arrows should be just about affordable.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

If you don’t like it ignore it. It’s not hard to do.

Exactly. 


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 2:26pm
This reminds me a bit about “Woolfie Smith “for those of you old enough to remember the show!😉 However there is to be fair, a time me and a place for everything but ,on a Scarlets centred Rugby form I prefer discussion on rugby related matters tbh.

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Great idea! Always fancied living in a cave and foraging for food to stay alive.
We can use our spare time to build a wall between us and England and develop our own defence weapons. Spears and bows and arrows should be just about affordable.

Either have a serious debate or don't bother. Comments like this are so boring


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

This reminds me a bit about “Woolfie Smith “for those of you old enough to remember the show!😉 However there is to be fair, a time me and a place for everything but ,on a Scarlets centred Rugby form I prefer discussion on rugby related matters tbh.

Hahaha, wow, of all the comments being made this is probably the most insulting!! LOL


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:26pm
Banners and marches at games? So does this mean people can campaign against Brexit on match day or supporting labour or conservative government at election time? I’m sure people feel passionate about it but I don’t think it will be suitable on a match day.


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Hi everyone, some of you may or may not have seen on Facebook/Twitter but I’ve recently started a Scarlets supporters for independence group.

There are a few similar groups that have cropped up recently (Welsh football and rugby fans) so I thought as the Scarlets it would be pretty strange for us to not get involved! I’m aware that not every scarlet supports independence however so it’s important to say that the group doesn’t presume to speak for Scarlets supporters as a whole.

I have a season ticket and will make most home games this year although I’ll struggle at times due to money and work commitments. It would be really good to have some of the hardcore fans who make every game home and away on board. Plus anyone else who wants to, even if you only make one or two a year, the more the merrier! Would any of you be interested?

I thought an ideal date to meet up would be on the day of Leinster home, before the game, in New Dock Stars rfc? Where we can discuss what kind of stuff we can do going forward e.g. banners, marches etc.

Let me know your thoughts, diolch
 
Genuine question with no intent to offend, is the 'association' of this group with the Scarlets purely to get better coverage of the topic and was that the same for the other groups mentioned?
 
I can't see any other real reason to link it with the club apart from publicity, if this is the case then I'm not really comfortable with the Scarlets being used as a vehicle to drive something with no connection with the region.
 
If the cause isn't getting enough support or coverage then that probably gives a message.


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:47pm
I think that this could cause problems. I don't think it wise to use the Scarlets name. Outsiders WILL link it to the Club. Should any member of the group make extreme comments that are reported in the press it could tarnish the Scarlets brand. 

Sponsors can be VERY sensitive to public opinion. This could lead to sponsors waking away and spending their money over the bridge. How would we feel with empty spaces on next year's jersey and no cash ?

I'm not against people's rights to protest etc, but this is an idea that needs to be dropped now.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 4:36pm
With regards to walking for conservative, labour, brexit etc:

They can if they want. But they won't because those topics get plenty of coverage in the media. A grassroots movement isn't necessary to get people to vote labour as they are already a well established-party, literally the opposite of grassroots.

I also think that this topic is very specific to the Scarlets, as the only predominantly Welsh-speaking region in Wales and maybe even the most nationalistic-minded of any sporting organisation in Wales, based in one of many Welsh towns that has had a hard time economically under Westminster governments. But that is just my personal opinion. 

With regards to using the Scarlets as a vehicle:

Not at all. It's a grassroots movement and the point of a grassroots movement is lots of little groups with no specific political allegiance band together to cause change. 

It's an effective way of uniting like-minded people who already have common ground - in this case, supporting a specific sports team, the Scarlets. I am a lifelong Scarlets supporter who also supports independence - I started the group to find like-minded people, and as I've said numerous times, this group doesn't presume to speak for the Scarlets as a club or as the entire fan base.

The national team's football supporters are doing something similar and it's gaining a lot of momentum; they're planning a march and have a banner ready to go for the Ireland game in September, and there are several other supporters groups doing similar things - there is an appetite for it, but people need to be given an opportunity to speak up. This is how these things start, they don't just happen overnight. 

The cause is getting plenty of support at grassroots level with YesCymru and other groups, but not in the media - which only tells me that the media don't want to cover it.

The Scottish independence movement started in the exact same way - they have Doctors for Scottish independence, Farmers for Scottish Independence, Celtic Fans for Scottish Independence etc etc. I don't for one minute think that all Scottish doctors are for Scottish Independence, and a Scottish doctors for unionism group wouldn't make me think less of all Scottish doctors. 

With regards to the sponsors issue:

If you read the full message in my second comment on the thread, it clearly states we don't tolerate or advocate extreme views, xenophobia or hatred of any group. So it's extremely unlikely to happen. I've also clearly stated that it's not officially associated with the Scarlets in any capacity - simply a faction of the supporters who believe in Welsh independence. 

Celtic FC, amongst many other clubs, didn't suffer one jot from having a supporters group that backed the independence movement, because truthfully sponsors don't give a monkeys. If they did care, they'd have something to say about Yma O Hyd being our anthem, don't you think? Literally [beep]ging off the establishment at every home game. 

To be honest, judging by the reaction on here you'd think I actually did suggest a 'Scarlets Supporters for the Right to Bear Arms' group. Wanting an independent Wales isn't that extreme, Scotland nearly voted for it and probably will vote for it in the next 10 years. 

There's a preconception that Welsh nationalism is evil and people balk at the word 'independence', and even Plaid Cymru were terrified of mentioning what they termed 'the 'i' word'. Yet now, their party leadership candidates are discussing independence as a key part of their campaigns.

Maybe I misjudged the amount of support it would get in the Scarlets' fans ranks, I don't know. Maybe talk of a march is a bit premature, but there's only one way to find out which is why I'm posting here, Facebook and Twitter, to gauge opinon. 


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 4:48pm
I should also say a few more things:

1. There's absolutely no obligation for anyone to join the group. You don't have to, it's just here for those who want to. 

2. I care as much about the Scarlets as the next supporter, and if the club took any damage as a result of this group, I'd be devastated. Which is why I will ensure it doesn't happen - this is why groups have codes of conduct and mission statements.




Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 5:14pm
Where would you fly the banners or do the March?


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 5:43pm
No idea on the march. The numbers are nowhere near big enough to do one in the near future. 

The banner, probably in the north enclosure which is where my season ticket is 


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Great idea! Always fancied living in a cave and foraging for food to stay alive.
We can use our spare time to build a wall between us and England and develop our own defence weapons. Spears and bows and arrows should be just about affordable.


Either have a serious debate or don't bother. Comments like this are so boring

I was being serious, I thought you were the one who was joking.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

No idea on the march. The numbers are nowhere near big enough to do one in the near future. 

The banner, probably in the north enclosure which is where my season ticket is 

Two words of warning. 

1. most organisations will not allow political statements of any description.
2. any banner will need a valid and up to date fire safety certificate.
3. you need permission from the Scarlets to display any banners in the stadium.




Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

No idea on the march. The numbers are nowhere near big enough to do one in the near future. 

The banner, probably in the north enclosure which is where my season ticket is 


Before you go any further I suggest you email or phone the club.

The club asked for the Tandy in banner to be taken down.


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 6:04pm
I would generally support this sort of grassroots movement but I think the word 'independence' puts a lot of people off, because Wales have got to be a good 100 years away at least from being able to support themselves outside of the UK. We have very little manufacturing and financial services here for a start. When the SNP in Scotland came into power they did so on the basis that independence wouldn't be inevitable - there would still be a referendum if you wanted to stay in the UK.  

I lived in Scotland for 21 years and SNP MPs like John Swinney were the only ones we saw on the street engaging with people on the street. I remember the Tories having a conference in a hall in Dundee once and you wouldn't know they were there at all - I remember William Hague being rushed in through the back entrance because he was scared of all the hecklers out the front. So yeah, I'd personally recommend a lot of engagement with people on the street to create a groundswell to complement any online activities.

But I agree that Westminster, and politicians in general, don't serve Wales well. Think of all the things in Wales that just don't get done: Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon, developing Cardiff Airport, Severn Barrage, M4 Relief Road, improving north-south road and rail links, Ebbw Vale circuit, the Microsoft underwater data centre, Swansea to Paddington rail electrification and the Swansea metro system is now going to take a decade. 

After living in Scotland and seeing them just getting on with things like building a third Forth crossing, it's so frustrating. Yet, I saw plans recently to flood more parts of Wales to provide England with fresh water, politicians were quite positive about that. 

So I agree with this movement on principle, but the UK is probably the best country in the world and it's a difficult argument to put together to try and leave it. I'm just happy to live in Wales, which is the best part of the best country in the world.


Posted By: LLANDRE
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 10:07pm
We've had Labour adverts in match programmes . I've not seen any complaints about that.

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West is Best (Fin gwybod)


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:16pm
Pob lwc efo'r ymgyrch. Best of luck with it. I'm a member of Yes.Cymru myself. To address some of the issues that have been or yet to be raised ...

1. There are a lot of campaign groups that are associated with sports and clubs. For example there's already a Wales football fans for independence group. I see nothing wrong with a Scarlets fans for Indy group at all ... providing they conduct themselves impeccably and within any reasonable requests of the Scarlets themselves.

2. Given that the thread has been moved to the appropriate place in the forum I see no issue with it especially since we've had a Brexit thread (ok I'll admit I've stayed away from that one - the level of vitriol surrounding the debate in the UK has been awful but to be fair to the contributors on SF the majority have conducted themselves with good grace) and Jeremy Corbyn. I trust that we shall all conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner?

3. For those who are interested in engaging in the matter, no matter your opinion I'll deign to offer a few links for your interest. Apologies if this is familiar ground:

https:////yes.cymru/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Independence-in-Your-Pocket1.pdf" rel="nofollow - https:////yes.cymru/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Independence-in-Your-Pocket1.pdf

https://yes.cymru/" rel="nofollow - https://yes.cymru/

https://nation.cymru/" rel="nofollow - https://nation.cymru/

https://////d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/adamprice/pages/79/attachments/original/1535670172/Adam_Price_-_National_Economic_Plan.pdf?1535670172" rel="nofollow - https://////d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/adamprice/pages/79/attachments/original/1535670172/Adam_Price_-_National_Economic_Plan.pdf?1535670172

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/plaid2016/pages/7061/attachments/original/1516112630/ChangeWeNeed%28Eng%29Web.pdf?1516112630" rel="nofollow - https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/plaid2016/pages/7061/attachments/original/1516112630/ChangeWeNeed%28Eng%29Web.pdf?1516112630




https:////pbs.twimg.com/media/DkgQz95XsAMBpR_.jpg" rel="nofollow - https:////pbs.twimg.com/media/DkgQz95XsAMBpR_.jpg

http:////newsfeed.cymru/" rel="nofollow - http:////newsfeed.cymru/

There are many more out there. I'll post any interesting links I find in this thread.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Great idea! Always fancied living in a cave and foraging for food to stay alive.
We can use our spare time to build a wall between us and England and develop our own defence weapons. Spears and bows and arrows should be just about affordable.


These old memes have been doing the rounds since the height of the empire in the 19th century. I take it you're exaggerating for effect, but in all seriousness I don't think that the "Wales is too poor" myth holds much water.

Look at the Eastern European States that gained independence following the collapse of the USSR. Some thirty years later, a good number of them have really shifted their economies forwards. I'd argue that despite having a GDP per head some way behind the UK average, Wales is still a pretty affluent country when you compare that measure globally. I'd also argue that given that we've had rule from London for aeons, Labour dominated local government for a century and Welsh Labour Censored in the Senedd for 20 years - all of whom have acted in the interests of a centralised UK state, the Welsh economy certainly has plenty of room to grow in the event of a Wales centric govenrment with the policies to encourage said growth .... particularly if that govenment has the powers to put an extensive programme of regeneration in place.

Honest opinion ... we need to boot Labour out first.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:39pm
Am y rheina sy'n deall y Gymraeg:

https:////golwg360.cymru/newyddion/cymru/527682-leanne-wood-sefydlu-confensiwn-edrych-annibyniaeth" rel="nofollow - https:////golwg360.cymru/newyddion/cymru/527682-leanne-wood-sefydlu-confensiwn-edrych-annibyniaeth


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:49pm
A very good article from the Institute of Welsh Affairs website here:

http:////www.iwa.wales/click/2018/08/public-spending-wales-squeeze-without-end/" rel="nofollow - http:////www.iwa.wales/click/2018/08/public-spending-wales-squeeze-without-end/

I read this in the light of Labour's ongoing failure to reform local government in Wales. What worries me most is how the Welsh economy has been so stagnant under Welsh Labour and next year the Welsh Government begins to raise part of it's own budget through income tax (with powers to vary the bands by as much as 10p in the pound). https:////www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38345168" rel="nofollow - https:////www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38345168 This is expected to account for 20% of the WAG budget. Even they are begining to wake up to the fact that they can't carry on as they are.

New ideas are needed. I'm watching the Plaid leadership race with interest. At least it has reinvigorated the debate over our economy. I'm not seeing many ideas coming out of the Labour camp at the present moment.




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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 8:14am
An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 

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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 


This is another meme that’s been doing the rounds for decades. I don’t think the “We’re not good enough” argument holds water either. Your observation of Welsh politics isn’t entirely baseless. We have effectively had a one party state for the last hundred years. Welsh Labour have proven to be wholly inadequate in developing the Welsh economy. Check out Rhun apIorwerth’s article on Nation.Cymru where he talks about Labour managing our economic decline.

From the failed economic policy of “inward investment” to the poorly spent European funding, between them the Welsh office and WAG have been useless. We now have a massive demographic shift with some 600k mostly younger Welsh moving to England and a similar number (but on average older) moving the other way oner the last 20 years.

In amongst the Welsh diaspora are people of remarkable talent. We’re no different from any other nation in that regard. For example the director behind the building of the LHC at Cern, probably the greatest physics experiment to date is Prof. Lyn Evans ... a Swansea lad. The first step in tapping into our own talent is to boot Labour out. Instead of naked self interest we need a government that is committed to building our economy. Welsh Labour are on a cosy little number and they and their hangers on are bleeding the country dry.

However please don’t conflate their miserable misgovernment with an inability for Wales to grow. Time for a change.

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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 10:05am

There's a fair bit of contradiction in the rationale for using the scarlets name, and badge, to further the cause, or not as it may be.

I've very little interest in the topic of independence but have absolutely no issue with people looking for like minded people to discuss it with either on here or at games but I wouldn't want my pre match entertainment to include banners and marches, I go to the rugby to watch rugby, talk rugby and have a laugh, like many others.

If it were successful in getting the profile raised using the scarlets they would be strongly associated with the movement because of the choice of name, badge and location to promote independence, surely we can see that? Seems pretty clear that is the aim?


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:43am
Originally posted by LLANDRE LLANDRE wrote:

We've had Labour adverts in match programmes . I've not seen any complaints about that.


That's an advert. They're paying the club to get publicity and not calling themselves the Scarlets Labour Group as far as I'm aware.

The issue here is the assumed association with the Scarlets. Unless the club have given their full blessing of course.

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https://twitter.com/Smallclone/status/985790016319315968" rel="nofollow - Top 25 European tries of all time


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


There's a fair bit of contradiction in the rationale for using the scarlets name, and badge, to further the cause, or not as it may be.

I've very little interest in the topic of independence but have absolutely no issue with people looking for like minded people to discuss it with either on here or at games but I wouldn't want my pre match entertainment to include banners and marches, I go to the rugby to watch rugby, talk rugby and have a laugh, like many others.

If it were successful in getting the profile raised using the scarlets they would be strongly associated with the movement because of the choice of name, badge and location to promote independence, surely we can see that? Seems pretty clear that is the aim?


Why are you so worried that that would be the case? What would be so wrong with the Scarlets being associated with an independence movement? It still doesn’t mean you or the club itself or anyone else has to back it.

I’ve mentioned it already, as have others. There are already several sports organisations in wales with Indy supporters groups associated with them. I’ve helped with the football group as I’m a big football fan too. Nobody will link the scarlets with it more or less than any other group. If we are being honest, while the scarlets have a decent platform with European rugby, it’s still nothing compared to international football or rugby. So if both of those have banners on show, or marches (which I’m hearing they will) theyll be just as associated with any independence movement if not more.

I really can’t see what’s so horrible about a club being associated with a political movement like this. Especially a club like the Scarlets who as a club and whose fan base make absolutely no secret of their political leanings with the use of a patriotic nationalist anthem at every home game.

I know not everybody in the club will feel the same way which is why I keep repeating that the group doesn’t speak for everyone.

The Indy movement currently, as you can gather from other posts on here, is mainly focusing on dispelling the myths surrounding it and knocking down the stigma surrounding the word. So many people in wales would say ‘I’d like to see it, but we are too poor/small’ etc but it just isn’t true, and there are several cases worldwide of countries achieving independence and going on to prosper, despite being extremely poor before.

People raise the issue that we have nowhere near enough economic power to stand by ourselves, but you’ve also got to ask why we are in that situation in the first place. Somebody mentioned earlier that we are a part of the ‘best country in the world’. So why is Wales so far behind economically than the rest of the UK? Why do they keep pulling the plug on projects that would boost our economy, while investing heavily in infrastructure in England that is already miles ahead of ours?

It may be true that it would be difficult if we were independent, but we are already one of the poorest countries in Europe, with some of the highest poverty rates and have the highest use of emergency food banks in the UK. Westminster and the assembly have caused this, and if you look throughout history, it’s ALWAYS been the same. We have to fight tooth and nail for everything we have; S4C, equality of the Welsh language (lawfully and in public sector), and devolution, basic things we should have a right to.

We pay the same tax as everyone else in the UK yet get the least out of it, with anglo-centric media (successfully) convincing us that we aren’t strong enough to go it alone while simultaneously treating us, our language and our culture with utter contempt. I can guarantee that the UK needs Wales more than Wales needs the UK.





Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:51am
When I first started coming around to the idea of independence, I had the same concerns as most others. But we are strong enough to do it, we just have to believe it.

Our lack of quality politicians is a concern, but Wales is one of the most politically disengaged countries in the world. Why? Because we’ve had one party rule for the last 100 years. People mindlessly vote labour every election, if they vote at all, without really knowing what they’re voting for. The scope of Welsh politics needs to change for us to produce better politicians. Our politicians don’t need to be very good because the population votes for them anyway.

We actually have some of the most abundant natural resources in the world, the key one being water. We actually sell our water at a massively discounted rate to the rest of the UK, and Welsh citizens pay more for it. It’s written into law that the Welsh assembly is not allowed to adjust the rate at which we sell our water, which tells you all you need to know about how important it is to the rest of the UK.


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:58am
The branding could very easily imply the club have that stance, and the pride in the region about the welsh language doesn't necessarily translate into supporting independence no matter how much emphasis is put on one song.

Like I said I've virtually no interest in the wider topic of independence so won't be writing any essays or even reading 80% of your post.

What I am concerned about is the club, and your yet to convince me that its not being used to further a cause.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:04pm
With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.

Your assumption that the Scarlets Company would support whatever the majority of supporters support is not accurate. The Scarlets, in my opinion, would strongly distance themselves from such a movement. They are not a political entity & should never get involved in political side taking. Just because we sing one of Dafydd Iwan's finest songs in no way implies what you claim. 


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:19pm
I'm trying to be polite but let's call a spade a spade, you're using the clubs profile and brand to grow your profile.

Whether that's intentional or you're so caught up in it you don't realise how obvious it is is debatable, not that it really matters.


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:25pm
Also baseless concerns?

Is that really the sort of dismissive response a forward thinking intellectual movement should be giving to a fair challenge?


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:29pm
What a load of rubbish. Is that the case for every other supporters group who have supported a political movement too? You’ve just ignored every point I’ve made.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:30pm
It’s hardly a fair challenge when you’re admitting to not reading 80% of my posts


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:31pm
Grassroots movement = strength in numbers. That’s the whole point which, with all due respect, you seem to be missing entirely.


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:43pm
Does the celtic equivalent use the celtic badge?

My point isn't about groups supporting a political movement, my concern and points and very specific.


Posted By: diego6754
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


There's a fair bit of contradiction in the rationale for using the scarlets name, and badge, to further the cause, or not as it may be.

I've very little interest in the topic of independence but have absolutely no issue with people looking for like minded people to discuss it with either on here or at games but I wouldn't want my pre match entertainment to include banners and marches, I go to the rugby to watch rugby, talk rugby and have a laugh, like many others.

If it were successful in getting the profile raised using the scarlets they would be strongly associated with the movement because of the choice of name, badge and location to promote independence, surely we can see that? Seems pretty clear that is the aim?


Why are you so worried that that would be the case? What would be so wrong with the Scarlets being associated with an independence movement? It still doesn’t mean you or the club itself or anyone else has to back it.

I’ve mentioned it already, as have others. There are already several sports organisations in wales with Indy supporters groups associated with them. I’ve helped with the football group as I’m a big football fan too. Nobody will link the scarlets with it more or less than any other group. If we are being honest, while the scarlets have a decent platform with European rugby, it’s still nothing compared to international football or rugby. So if both of those have banners on show, or marches (which I’m hearing they will) theyll be just as associated with any independence movement if not more.

I really can’t see what’s so horrible about a club being associated with a political movement like this. Especially a club like the Scarlets who as a club and whose fan base make absolutely no secret of their political leanings with the use of a patriotic nationalist anthem at every home game.

I know not everybody in the club will feel the same way which is why I keep repeating that the group doesn’t speak for everyone.

The Indy movement currently, as you can gather from other posts on here, is mainly focusing on dispelling the myths surrounding it and knocking down the stigma surrounding the word. So many people in wales would say ‘I’d like to see it, but we are too poor/small’ etc but it just isn’t true, and there are several cases worldwide of countries achieving independence and going on to prosper, despite being extremely poor before.

People raise the issue that we have nowhere near enough economic power to stand by ourselves, but you’ve also got to ask why we are in that situation in the first place. Somebody mentioned earlier that we are a part of the ‘best country in the world’. So why is Wales so far behind economically than the rest of the UK? Why do they keep pulling the plug on projects that would boost our economy, while investing heavily in infrastructure in England that is already miles ahead of ours?

It may be true that it would be difficult if we were independent, but we are already one of the poorest countries in Europe, with some of the highest poverty rates and have the highest use of emergency food banks in the UK. Westminster and the assembly have caused this, and if you look throughout history, it’s ALWAYS been the same. We have to fight tooth and nail for everything we have; S4C, equality of the Welsh language (lawfully and in public sector), and devolution, basic things we should have a right to.

We pay the same tax as everyone else in the UK yet get the least out of it, with anglo-centric media (successfully) convincing us that we aren’t strong enough to go it alone while simultaneously treating us, our language and our culture with utter contempt. I can guarantee that the UK needs Wales more than Wales needs the UK.



 

How long have you got?....because it doesn't represent the views of the majority of the fans...because it doesn't represent the views of the club....the clubs marketing department would have kittens at the thought of brand association with an independence movement....you will alienate fans....this is not NI...sponsors would hate it, especially those with UK wide reach...I could go on. And it does paint a picture that the club and/or fans are pro independence, surely you can see that?

It is just not a good idea buddy, wrong place, on here or at the ground. But good luck in your crusade all the same.

Like someone else mentioned, if you plan to demonstrate or put banners up at the ground, ask the club first I am pretty sure you'll get a 'very sorry but you can't do that'.


Posted By: Cofi
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 1:39pm
Undoubtedly the mood amongst young people throughout Wales is growing towards independence and I welcome this strand wholeheartedly. Carmarthenshire has often been politically ahead of other counties in the past and I'm glad that someone has had the forsight to start this group along with the dozens of Yes Cymru groups in Wales.
Pob lwc a da iawn bois!


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Grassroots movement = strength in numbers. That’s the whole point which, with all due respect, you seem to be missing entirely.


There’s one way to settle this debate. Contact the Scarlets and let us know what they say. That’s fair?


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 2:17pm
IMHO I can't imagine the Scarlets would want to endorse a political group, nor should anyone try to make that happen. If you want to engage people on the subject having this thread here is a good place to have debate. You also have twitter and facebook. These are good ways of reaching out to Scarlets fans on the issue. Perhaps that's the best way to see your group Cymro. Perhaps it would be entirely reasonable to have a presence outside the main gates and a supply of "Independence in your pocket" booklets for those who show an interest. See if it grows from there. You could point folk in the direction of Yes Llanelli if they want to know more or get involved.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Cofi Cofi wrote:

Undoubtedly the mood amongst young people throughout Wales is growing towards independence and I welcome this strand wholeheartedly. Carmarthenshire has often been politically ahead of other counties in the past and I'm glad that someone has had the forsight to start this group along with the dozens of Yes Cymru groups in Wales.
Pob lwc a da iawn bois!
Mmmm... 🤔 Change can only be implemented via the political voting process and your thesis doesn’t seem to stack up with the considerable disinterest in voting Plaid Cymru the ONLY party seeking independence in Wales. Mind you only about half the adult population can be bothered to vote!

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Cofi Cofi wrote:

Undoubtedly the mood amongst young people throughout Wales is growing towards independence and I welcome this strand wholeheartedly. Carmarthenshire has often been politically ahead of other counties in the past and I'm glad that someone has had the forsight to start this group along with the dozens of Yes Cymru groups in Wales.
Pob lwc a da iawn bois!
Mmmm... 🤔 Change can only be implemented via the political voting process and your thesis doesn’t seem to stack up with the considerable disinterest in voting Plaid Cymru the ONLY party seeking independence in Wales. Mind you only about half the adult population can be bothered to vote!


I think Cofi is referring to the activity with Yes Cymru over the last two years. A lot of indy supporters are disaffected with Plaid but seem to have found an outlet with the Yes campaign.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Does the celtic equivalent use the celtic badge?

My point isn't about groups supporting a political movement, my concern and points and very specific.

Yes, it does

Celtic fans for YES (use their current crest):  https://ibb.co/mMe8VK" rel="nofollow - https://ibb.co/mMe8VK

Celtic supporters for independence (they use an older version of the club crest):  https://ibb.co/d2Dfcz" rel="nofollow - https://ibb.co/d2Dfcz


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Cofi Cofi wrote:

Undoubtedly the mood amongst young people throughout Wales is growing towards independence and I welcome this strand wholeheartedly. Carmarthenshire has often been politically ahead of other counties in the past and I'm glad that someone has had the forsight to start this group along with the dozens of Yes Cymru groups in Wales.
Pob lwc a da iawn bois!
Mmmm... 🤔 Change can only be implemented via the political voting process and your thesis doesn’t seem to stack up with the considerable disinterest in voting Plaid Cymru the ONLY party seeking independence in Wales. Mind you only about half the adult population can be bothered to vote!

Diolch! 

Yes, as totallybiasedscarlet says, the indy movement is being driven by YesCymru, a grassroots movement, not the political party Plaid Cymru. Plaid are only now getting on board with independence (they barely mentioned it before) because of the support for YesCymru. It has absolutely snowballed in the past 12 months.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. The aim of this group is to contribute to the already growing and thriving independence grassroots movement, NOT a political party, or in support of a specific political party.

I actually agree that Plaid aren't good enough but that isn't the point right now. The goal is to ignite the discussion and bring it into the public sphere, where it seems to be taboo, certainly judging by some of the reactions here (you'd think I'd started a Scarelts Supporters of the Free Wales Army).

Seriously though, Gate12 and others, I honestly understand your concerns. I'm not sure how better to explain it than I already have. If the Scarlets have a massive issue with using their brand, obviously I'll have to reconsider the crest etc., but in all honesty I can't see that happening. I'm also not going to go and seek their endorsement for reasons stated by others. Starting a group like this really isn't as extreme and out of the ordinary as you seem to think. I'll post a list of similar groups when I get the chance, both in Wales and Scotland.

Obviously talk of banners, marches etc. was premature, and it would probably be best to enter into this more slowly than originally thought. Like totallybiasedscarlet says, maybe handing out independence booklets etc. would be a better place to start, and try to gauge overall opinion based on the reaction to that. Honestly, if there isn't a feel for it in the fanbase (whom none of us can speak for by the way, to whoever claimed that the majority of the fanbase don't want independence) then I'm happy to leave it at that. Look at @Scarlets4Indy on Twitter though, and it's actually garnered a fair bit of support in the past 2 days. I also ran a poll on the Scarlets Supporters facebook page which came back 67% in favour of Indy.

Claims that I'm doing this to 'increase my profile' and 'use the Scarlets to further my crusade' are just ridiculous to be honest. I'm a lifelong Scarlets supporter and don't give a poo about my own profile. I just want what's best for my country my club, just like all of you.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Cofi Cofi wrote:

Undoubtedly the mood amongst young people throughout Wales is growing towards independence and I welcome this strand wholeheartedly. Carmarthenshire has often been politically ahead of other counties in the past and I'm glad that someone has had the forsight to start this group along with the dozens of Yes Cymru groups in Wales.
Pob lwc a da iawn bois!
Mmmm... 🤔 Change can only be implemented via the political voting process and your thesis doesn’t seem to stack up with the considerable disinterest in voting Plaid Cymru the ONLY party seeking independence in Wales. Mind you only about half the adult population can be bothered to vote!

Diolch! 

Yes, as totallybiasedscarlet says, the indy movement is being driven by YesCymru, a grassroots movement, not the political party Plaid Cymru. Plaid are only now getting on board with independence (they barely mentioned it before) because of the support for YesCymru. It has absolutely snowballed in the past 12 months.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. The aim of this group is to contribute to the already growing and thriving independence grassroots movement, NOT a political party, or in support of a specific political party.

I actually agree that Plaid aren't good enough but that isn't the point right now. The goal is to ignite the discussion and bring it into the public sphere, where it seems to be taboo, certainly judging by some of the reactions here (you'd think I'd started a Scarelts Supporters of the Free Wales Army).

Seriously though, Gate12 and others, I honestly understand your concerns. I'm not sure how better to explain it than I already have. If the Scarlets have a massive issue with using their brand, obviously I'll have to reconsider the crest etc., but in all honesty I can't see that happening. I'm also not going to go and seek their endorsement for reasons stated by others. Starting a group like this really isn't as extreme and out of the ordinary as you seem to think. I'll post a list of similar groups when I get the chance, both in Wales and Scotland.

Obviously talk of banners, marches etc. was premature, and it would probably be best to enter into this more slowly than originally thought. Like totallybiasedscarlet says, maybe handing out independence booklets etc. would be a better place to start, and try to gauge overall opinion based on the reaction to that. Honestly, if there isn't a feel for it in the fanbase (whom none of us can speak for by the way, to whoever claimed that the majority of the fanbase don't want independence) then I'm happy to leave it at that. Look at @Scarlets4Indy on Twitter though, and it's actually garnered a fair bit of support in the past 2 days. I also ran a poll on the Scarlets Supporters facebook page which came back 67% in favour of Indy.

Claims that I'm doing this to 'increase my profile' and 'use the Scarlets to further my crusade' are just ridiculous to be honest. I'm a lifelong Scarlets supporter and don't give a poo about my own profile. I just want what's best for my country my club, just like all of you.


Thumbs Up


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 5:44pm
Show me your manifesto, show me how Wales will afford the following

1. create it's own armed forces, 
2. recover when quango's such as the DVLA, Companies house and the royal mint close
3. military bases such as RAF Valley close
4. finally what monetary system will Wales use?


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Show me your manifesto, show me how Wales will afford the following

1. create it's own armed forces, 
2. recover when quango's such as the DVLA, Companies house and the royal mint close
3. military bases such as RAF Valley close
4. finally what monetary system will Wales use?


https:////www.adamprice.wales/cynllun_economaidd_economic_plan" rel="nofollow - https:////www.adamprice.wales/cynllun_economaidd_economic_plan

https:////yes.cymru/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Independence-in-Your-Pocket1.pdf" rel="nofollow - https:////yes.cymru/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Independence-in-Your-Pocket1.pdf

https:////d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/plaid2016/pages/7061/attachments/original/1516112630/ChangeWeNeed%28Eng%29Web.pdf?1516112630" rel="nofollow - https:////d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/plaid2016/pages/7061/attachments/original/1516112630/ChangeWeNeed%28Eng%29Web.pdf?1516112630

A few links for you there. Also this book worth a look:

https:////www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1845273117/?coliid=I2L5ICYK49VB6C&colid=C9TH25DYPNIK&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it" rel="nofollow - https:////www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1845273117/?coliid=I2L5ICYK49VB6C&colid=C9TH25DYPNIK&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it




-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 


This is another meme that’s been doing the rounds for decades. I don’t think the “We’re not good enough” argument holds water either. Your observation of Welsh politics isn’t entirely baseless. We have effectively had a one party state for the last hundred years. Welsh Labour have proven to be wholly inadequate in developing the Welsh economy. Check out Rhun apIorwerth’s article on Nation.Cymru where he talks about Labour managing our economic decline.

From the failed economic policy of “inward investment” to the poorly spent European funding, between them the Welsh office and WAG have been useless. We now have a massive demographic shift with some 600k mostly younger Welsh moving to England and a similar number (but on average older) moving the other way oner the last 20 years.

In amongst the Welsh diaspora are people of remarkable talent. We’re no different from any other nation in that regard. For example the director behind the building of the LHC at Cern, probably the greatest physics experiment to date is Prof. Lyn Evans ... a Swansea lad. The first step in tapping into our own talent is to boot Labour out. Instead of naked self interest we need a government that is committed to building our economy. Welsh Labour are on a cosy little number and they and their hangers on are bleeding the country dry.

However please don’t conflate their miserable misgovernment with an inability for Wales to grow. Time for a change.
A good response.

To back my statement I will say one thing.  If Wales was already independent 2 years ago, then England would be staying in Europe and Wales would be leaving.  Brexit is going to be hard enough for us, but imagine if it was Waxit. Smile  We need to be saved from ourselves sometimes.



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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 


This is another meme that’s been doing the rounds for decades. I don’t think the “We’re not good enough” argument holds water either. Your observation of Welsh politics isn’t entirely baseless. We have effectively had a one party state for the last hundred years. Welsh Labour have proven to be wholly inadequate in developing the Welsh economy. Check out Rhun apIorwerth’s article on Nation.Cymru where he talks about Labour managing our economic decline.

From the failed economic policy of “inward investment” to the poorly spent European funding, between them the Welsh office and WAG have been useless. We now have a massive demographic shift with some 600k mostly younger Welsh moving to England and a similar number (but on average older) moving the other way oner the last 20 years.

In amongst the Welsh diaspora are people of remarkable talent. We’re no different from any other nation in that regard. For example the director behind the building of the LHC at Cern, probably the greatest physics experiment to date is Prof. Lyn Evans ... a Swansea lad. The first step in tapping into our own talent is to boot Labour out. Instead of naked self interest we need a government that is committed to building our economy. Welsh Labour are on a cosy little number and they and their hangers on are bleeding the country dry.

However please don’t conflate their miserable misgovernment with an inability for Wales to grow. Time for a change.
A good response.

To back my statement I will say one thing.  If Wales was already independent 2 years ago, then England would be staying in Europe and Wales would be leaving.  Brexit is going to be hard enough for us, but imagine if it was Waxit. Smile  We need to be saved from ourselves sometimes.



I'm pretty sure England voted Out too mind.

Thanks for the response tho. We have to accept that the process of leaving the UK would not be a walk in the park. However, I look at it as what we stand to gain more than what we stand to lose. IMHO we've had centuries of "unionism" and we've not had an all-Wales native and soveriegn government since King https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn (after that various parts of Wales were not fully in Welsh hands again) - that is the problem as far as I'm concerned. Wales' economy is structurally part of the service of the key driver in the UK economy i.e. London. It serves the UK establishment and not the needs of our Nation. No wonder it's not working very well.

Exactly how it would all work needs to be fleshed out - the devil's in the detail as they say. However I have to say I'm very pleased to see Yes Cymru moving this debate forwards. Doubtless they have created a renewed impetus and we've seen that in the discourse in the Plaid leadership contest and the formation of groups such as Labour for Indy Wales (Mike Hedges behind that one I think).


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 01 September 2018 at 7:11pm
Yes, you're right about England voting to leave. My mistake.



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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 


This is another meme that’s been doing the rounds for decades. I don’t think the “We’re not good enough” argument holds water either. Your observation of Welsh politics isn’t entirely baseless. We have effectively had a one party state for the last hundred years. Welsh Labour have proven to be wholly inadequate in developing the Welsh economy. Check out Rhun apIorwerth’s article on Nation.Cymru where he talks about Labour managing our economic decline.

From the failed economic policy of “inward investment” to the poorly spent European funding, between them the Welsh office and WAG have been useless. We now have a massive demographic shift with some 600k mostly younger Welsh moving to England and a similar number (but on average older) moving the other way oner the last 20 years.

In amongst the Welsh diaspora are people of remarkable talent. We’re no different from any other nation in that regard. For example the director behind the building of the LHC at Cern, probably the greatest physics experiment to date is Prof. Lyn Evans ... a Swansea lad. The first step in tapping into our own talent is to boot Labour out. Instead of naked self interest we need a government that is committed to building our economy. Welsh Labour are on a cosy little number and they and their hangers on are bleeding the country dry.

However please don’t conflate their miserable misgovernment with an inability for Wales to grow. Time for a change.
A good response.

To back my statement I will say one thing.  If Wales was already independent 2 years ago, then England would be staying in Europe and Wales would be leaving.  Brexit is going to be hard enough for us, but imagine if it was Waxit. Smile  We need to be saved from ourselves sometimes.




I'm pretty sure England voted Out too mind.

Thanks for the response tho. We have to accept that the process of leaving the UK would not be a walk in the park. However, I look at it as what we stand to gain more than what we stand to lose. IMHO we've had centuries of "unionism" and we've not had an all-Wales native and soveriegn government since King https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn (after that various parts of Wales were not fully in Welsh hands again) - that is the problem as far as I'm concerned. Wales' economy is structurally part of the service of the key driver in the UK economy i.e. London. It serves the UK establishment and not the needs of our Nation. No wonder it's not working very well.

Exactly how it would all work needs to be fleshed out - the devil's in the detail as they say. However I have to say I'm very pleased to see Yes Cymru moving this debate forwards. Doubtless they have created a renewed impetus and we've seen that in the discourse in the Plaid leadership contest and the formation of groups such as Labour for Indy Wales (Mike Hedges behind that one I think).


Your point about the centuries of unionism is what does it for me. We’ve had centuries under the same rule and we are still miles behind even Scotland. Why would we want that to continue, and why does anyone think it will change?

I’d love for there to be an alternative way but I just can’t see it happening unless we as a country make the decision for ourselves, to make all future decisions by ourselves.

You’re also bang on about the drain of Welsh talent.



Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 2:04pm
Also, this has been a great thread so far. It’s an emotive subject for obvious reasons, and will polarise opinion, but having the discussion is the important part right now.

I hope the doubters have read some of the links provided in here and have at least considered the other side of the coin. Although we disagree, I think you’re all asking the right questions and the exact same questions I and many others asked when first considering independence. If Wales is going to grow, we need to discuss these topics openly on a wide scale because at the moment the majority of the population is asleep with regards to politics.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Also, this has been a great thread so far. It’s an emotive subject for obvious reasons, and will polarise opinion, but having the discussion is the important part right now.

I hope the doubters have read some of the links provided in here and have at least considered the other side of the coin. Although we disagree, I think you’re all asking the right questions and the exact same questions I and many others asked when first considering independence. If Wales is going to grow, we need to discuss these topics openly on a wide scale because at the moment the majority of the population is asleep with regards to politics.
who or what gave you the license to use the great scarlets brand in your crusade?


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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:00pm
The Scarlets are an entity that ( thankfully) promotes inclusion, with pretty much absolute governance over the product they offer.

To appeal to the support base, and hope to then translate that support in to some sort of impact on a match day and beyond does seem to fly in the face of the regulatory control that The Scarlets can just apply to that concept.

It’s not a case of can they support this initiative, or that there are a few other entities that exist with a long history of something similar as a point of reference...

....It’s just why on a God’s green earth would an entity in the entertainment business align themselves to any movement that could segregate and alienate segments of their support base, and so actually promote exclusion. Commercial suicide

Good luck with you’re inaugural meeting on Saturday. I’ve no issue with causes.





Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Also, this has been a great thread so far. It’s an emotive subject for obvious reasons, and will polarise opinion, but having the discussion is the important part right now.

I hope the doubters have read some of the links provided in here and have at least considered the other side of the coin. Although we disagree, I think you’re all asking the right questions and the exact same questions I and many others asked when first considering independence. If Wales is going to grow, we need to discuss these topics openly on a wide scale because at the moment the majority of the population is asleep with regards to politics.
who or what gave you the license to use the great scarlets brand in your crusade?


This is his pinned tweet on Twitter:

"Hi! Welcome to Scarlets Supporters for Independence, a group for any Scarlets who believe in independence for Wales from the UK. There are various groups cropping up around the country right now, with many people feeling disillusioned with Westminster and the Welsh Assembly."

Seems pretty reasonable to me. You may have a different opinion on independence from the OP but it's a bit disparaging to call it a crusade. It's under the umbrella of Yes Cymru, a campaign group. All part of democracy.



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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

The Scarlets are an entity that ( thankfully) promotes inclusion, with pretty much absolute governance over the product they offer.

To appeal to the support base, and hope to then translate that support in to some sort of impact on a match day and beyond does seem to fly in the face of the regulatory control that The Scarlets can just apply to that concept.

It’s not a case of can they support this initiative, or that there are a few other entities that exist with a long history of something similar as a point of reference...

....It’s just why on a God’s green earth would an entity in the entertainment business align themselves to any movement that could segregate and alienate segments of their support base, and so actually promote exclusion. Commercial suicide

Good luck with you’re inaugural meeting on Saturday. I’ve no issue with causes.


OP said this to be fair:

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Obviously talk of banners, marches etc. was premature, and it would probably be best to enter into this more slowly than originally thought. Like totallybiasedscarlet says, maybe handing out independence booklets etc. would be a better place to start, and try to gauge overall opinion based on the reaction to that. Honestly, if there isn't a feel for it in the fanbase (whom none of us can speak for by the way, to whoever claimed that the majority of the fanbase don't want independence) then I'm happy to leave it at that.




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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:30pm
Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.


Well my suggestion was to have a presence outside the ground. If all he does is call it "Scarlets fans for Indy" and makes it clear it's a grassroots thing and not officially endorsed by the Scarlets then I can't see how it's stepping on anyone's toes. It is then literally as he put it, a group for Scarlets fans who support indy for Wales. I think it would be wise for him to see it in those terms specifically.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.


Well my suggestion was to have a presence outside the ground. If all he does is call it "Scarlets fans for Indy" and makes it clear it's a grassroots thing and not officially endorsed by the Scarlets then I can't see how it's stepping on anyone's toes. It is then literally as he put it, a group for Scarlets fans who support indy for Wales. I think it would be wise for him to see it in those terms specifically.
then surely it should be called some but not all scarlets "fans" for independence.the title he is using suggests that it's the scarlets for independence.


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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.


Well my suggestion was to have a presence outside the ground. If all he does is call it "Scarlets fans for Indy" and makes it clear it's a grassroots thing and not officially endorsed by the Scarlets then I can't see how it's stepping on anyone's toes. It is then literally as he put it, a group for Scarlets fans who support indy for Wales. I think it would be wise for him to see it in those terms specifically.
then surely it should be called some but not all scarlets "fans" for independence.the title he is using suggests that it's the scarlets for independence.


I really don't want to get caught up in semantics. There are other similar groups - https://twitter.com/indywalesfans" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/indywalesfans for example. I think he's trying to do something in a similar vein.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 9:29pm
I really just cant stop thinking about Robert Lindsay and Woolfy Smith from Tooting in that great old   sitcom about civil protest…. I applaud the optimism of what surely must be youth in the creator of this thread... good luck in the protest ,but its going nowhere.Lets just beat Leinster !

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 9:41pm
Yes but where is the POLITICAL PARTY democratic election voting conduit for all this?  As I have got older I have swung over to the romanticism of an Independent Wales but Welsh Labour who rule the roost ,ever never wanted Wales to be independent and the Tories certainly don't and as for  Neil Hamilton and his brigade ……

SO you have to be talking about beefing (or Quorning up) Plaid Cymru and doing things standing for office in local and Parliamentary elections. Up the quality of the Welsh Nationalist movement and join them and get the mandate. Waiving flags with 15 people by the Beefeater isn't going to go anywhere 


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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Yes but where is the POLITICAL PARTY democratic election voting conduit for all this?  As I have got older I have swung over to the romanticism of an Independent Wales but Welsh Labour who rule the roost ,ever never wanted Wales to be independent and the Tories certainly don't and as for  Neil Hamilton and his brigade ……

SO you have to be talking about beefing (or Quorning up) Plaid Cymru and doing things standing for office in local and Parliamentary elections. Up the quality of the Welsh Nationalist movement and join them and get the mandate. Waiving flags with 15 people by the Beefeater isn't going to go anywhere 


Have you come across https://yes.cymru/" rel="nofollow - https://yes.cymru/ yet? It certainly does seem to have had an effect on PC at the very least already. I've not seen them debate independence seriously for many a year. The most pleasing aspect for me is that finally we're beginning to see some reasonable ideas on taking our economy forwards. That is the most critical aspect for me. Everything we care about in Wales hangs on it. There's even a pro-indy group within the Labour party now.

One point you make is very pertinent. I spoke with Leanne Wood when she came to Llanelli recently and it became obvious to me that Plaid need more policy and political expertise. There was a lot to like to be fair. I also like a lot that Adam Price has to say. You're right about getting the quality into PC. Don't discount some of the simpler "flag waving" stuff though. Yes Cymru was inspired by Yes Scotland and their marches etc have raised the profile of their movement significantly.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Show me your manifesto, show me how Wales will afford the following

1. create it's own armed forces, 
2. recover when quango's such as the DVLA, Companies house and the royal mint close
3. military bases such as RAF Valley close
4. finally what monetary system will Wales use?
 

Yes, I'll really miss those nuclear, biological and chemical weapons that the good old UK keeps to reinforce our US masters - sorry to defend us from attack. And what will we do without two brand new multi £billion aircraft carriers to help project our masters' influence overseas just like in the days of the good old empire  when England (sorry the UK)  actually could roam around the globe enslaving and plundering vast regions, (for their own good of course -a purely selfless act).
Perhaps the only good that could become of those aircraft carriers is that they could provide a magnificent futile gesture when they are sunk by Russian Kinzhal hypersonic missiles as they were taking part in another false flag attack on Syria or somewhere else whose government the US does not like.
It would then be seen as a magnificent and brave, but futile gesture, much akin to the Charge of the Light Brigade. It might give rise to a decent poem or two. And on which country's territory did that little episode occur?
How does the Irish Republic  manage without these weapons of mass destruction?


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 2:59am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

The Scarlets are an entity that ( thankfully) promotes inclusion, with pretty much absolute governance over the product they offer.

To appeal to the support base, and hope to then translate that support in to some sort of impact on a match day and beyond does seem to fly in the face of the regulatory control that The Scarlets can just apply to that concept.

It’s not a case of can they support this initiative, or that there are a few other entities that exist with a long history of something similar as a point of reference...

....It’s just why on a God’s green earth would an entity in the entertainment business align themselves to any movement that could segregate and alienate segments of their support base, and so actually promote exclusion. Commercial suicide

Good luck with you’re inaugural meeting on Saturday. I’ve no issue with causes.




Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:



Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.
 

I'm not looking to exclude anyone. I'm not hoping that the Scarlets endorse the group. I'm looking to see if there are other like-minded Scarlets supporters. 

I'm not, nor do I wish to, use the Scarlets as a vehicle for anything. If there is overwhelming support in the Scarlets fan base for independence, this would become apparent on a match day I think. If there's not, it won't. It really is as simple as that. Either way, nobody is being excluded and the fanbase will not be polarised by me and 14 others waving flags by the beefeater.

Thank you for your well wishes Thumbs Up


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 3:02am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Sorry, don’t understand your point.?

That’s still proposes using the Scarlets or Parc y Scarlets as a vehicle for promotion of a cause.


Well my suggestion was to have a presence outside the ground. If all he does is call it "Scarlets fans for Indy" and makes it clear it's a grassroots thing and not officially endorsed by the Scarlets then I can't see how it's stepping on anyone's toes. It is then literally as he put it, a group for Scarlets fans who support indy for Wales. I think it would be wise for him to see it in those terms specifically.
then surely it should be called some but not all scarlets "fans" for independence.the title he is using suggests that it's the scarlets for independence.

I haven't once used the term 'fans', it's Scarlets Supporters for Independence, a group for any Scarlets supporters who support Welsh independence. 

Not once have I stated that the entire Scarlets fanbase want independence. 


Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 3:15am
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

I really just cant stop thinking about Robert Lindsay and Woolfy Smith from Tooting in that great old   sitcom about civil protest…. I applaud the optimism of what surely must be youth in the creator of this thread... good luck in the protest ,but its going nowhere.Lets just beat Leinster !

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Yes but where is the POLITICAL PARTY democratic election voting conduit for all this?  As I have got older I have swung over to the romanticism of an Independent Wales but Welsh Labour who rule the roost ,ever never wanted Wales to be independent and the Tories certainly don't and as for  Neil Hamilton and his brigade ……

SO you have to be talking about beefing (or Quorning up) Plaid Cymru and doing things standing for office in local and Parliamentary elections. Up the quality of the Welsh Nationalist movement and join them and get the mandate. Waiving flags with 15 people by the Beefeater isn't going to go anywhere 

With all due respect, I'd rather be young and optimistic than old and cynical. Most other countries have social change driven by their youth, but in the UK and particularly Wales it's different - we have a disaffected and apathetic voting population, particularly young people. So yes it's true that I'm in the minority as a politically active person in their 20s in Wales. But if you read over this thread you'll see that I've been the one attempting a mature debate, with people who I assume are older than me mostly slinging mud. Make of that what you will.

You might be right about it going nowhere. But Brexit (the most stupid thing the UK has ever done in my opinion) was laughed at at first too. Things can happen fast in politics. Like totallybiasedscarlet has been saying, YesCymru is growing f

Your second comment tells me you don't understand the concept of a grassroots movement! Again, like totallybiasedscarlet said, that's how the Scottish indy movement began, a few people waving flags... and then more, and then more.. suddenly people are marching for it, believing it's possible, voting for the SNP, and getting a referendum.

Not saying the same will happen in Wales. But it's not as ridiculous as you seem to think. You also say you're come round to the romanticism of an indy wales, but accept that labour rule the roost. There's a labour for indy wales group, and to be honest, a large part of YesCymru's aims are to knock down Welsh labour. Not for Plaid to take their place necessarily, but for Labour to at least begin to put the needs of Wales first, which they haven't done for a long time. I've already said I believe Plaid aren't good enough and the quality of our politicians in general need to improve before we begin to move forward. But that won't happen until the population decides that they want it enough


Posted By: redeyes
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.

I very much hope the scarlets do not allow any political banner to be displayed anywhere within the stadium or outside on their land for that matter.


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The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!




Posted By: Cymroircarn9
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.

I very much hope the scarlets do not allow any political banner to be displayed anywhere within the stadium or outside on their land for that matter.

A YesCymru banner has been on show in Parc y Scarlets before 


Posted By: diego6754
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

I really just cant stop thinking about Robert Lindsay and Woolfy Smith from Tooting in that great old   sitcom about civil protest…. I applaud the optimism of what surely must be youth in the creator of this thread... good luck in the protest ,but its going nowhere.Lets just beat Leinster !

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Yes but where is the POLITICAL PARTY democratic election voting conduit for all this?  As I have got older I have swung over to the romanticism of an Independent Wales but Welsh Labour who rule the roost ,ever never wanted Wales to be independent and the Tories certainly don't and as for  Neil Hamilton and his brigade ……

SO you have to be talking about beefing (or Quorning up) Plaid Cymru and doing things standing for office in local and Parliamentary elections. Up the quality of the Welsh Nationalist movement and join them and get the mandate. Waiving flags with 15 people by the Beefeater isn't going to go anywhere 

With all due respect, I'd rather be young and optimistic than old and cynical. Most other countries have social change driven by their youth, but in the UK and particularly Wales it's different - we have a disaffected and apathetic voting population, particularly young people. So yes it's true that I'm in the minority as a politically active person in their 20s in Wales. But if you read over this thread you'll see that I've been the one attempting a mature debate, with people who I assume are older than me mostly slinging mud. Make of that what you will.

You might be right about it going nowhere. But Brexit (the most stupid thing the UK has ever done in my opinion) was laughed at at first too. Things can happen fast in politics. Like totallybiasedscarlet has been saying, YesCymru is growing f

Your second comment tells me you don't understand the concept of a grassroots movement! Again, like totallybiasedscarlet said, that's how the Scottish indy movement began, a few people waving flags... and then more, and then more.. suddenly people are marching for it, believing it's possible, voting for the SNP, and getting a referendum.

Not saying the same will happen in Wales. But it's not as ridiculous as you seem to think. You also say you're come round to the romanticism of an indy wales, but accept that labour rule the roost. There's a labour for indy wales group, and to be honest, a large part of YesCymru's aims are to knock down Welsh labour. Not for Plaid to take their place necessarily, but for Labour to at least begin to put the needs of Wales first, which they haven't done for a long time. I've already said I believe Plaid aren't good enough and the quality of our politicians in general need to improve before we begin to move forward. But that won't happen until the population decides that they want it enough
 

My god, I bet your a hoot on a night out!


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.


I very much hope the scarlets do not allow any political banner to be displayed anywhere within the stadium or outside on their land for that matter.


A YesCymru banner has been on show in Parc y Scarlets before 


Have you contacted the club yet like I suggested. I would have thought that’s the first thing to do.


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by diego6754 diego6754 wrote:


My god, I bet your a hoot on a night out!
Why make it personal?
I, like others, don’t completely agree with the idea. My main concern as others have pointed out is how it seems to align the club with a controversial political movement. Thankfully many people have argued the point in a mature and thoughtful way, but others have just thrown insults at the original poster.
People are quick to complain about the country being run by a rich political elite, middle aged or older, from a variety of state schools, then as soon as a youngster gets political they’re either run down, insulted for being “too young” or mocked as you just have.
If you don’t like his point fine. But no need to be personal?


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 1:50pm
Parc y Scarlets is not the place for any sort of political activism, especially one that attempts to align the club/its supporters to a political campaign.

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> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 9:03pm
The Club was quite willing to include an advert for private health care along with my season ticket but I don't think it means that the Scarlets endorse the principle of better health care only to those that can afford it.


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:13pm
I'm sure the advert wasn't placed gratis. The indipendance lot could do the same as long as they pay the going rate.

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Keep the faith


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 11:18pm
I think this thread needs to move on. It's going round and round in circles. I think the OP has made his intention clear.

Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

... it's Scarlets Supporters for Independence, a group for any Scarlets supporters who support Welsh independence. 

Not once have I stated that the entire Scarlets fanbase want independence. 


Shall we actually debate the issue of independence or do we need a seperate thread? A rhetorical question I might add.


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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 04 September 2018 at 12:06am
Ok, so my starting point has two parts.

1. It's a matter of the heart. I identify as Welsh/Cymraeg. To me Wales/Cymru is my nation. This informs my identity, heritage & culture. I feel that the lack of a sovereign Welsh government jeapordises the future of this socio-cultural group. Not only could such a government be a bulwark against cultural erosion, but could create the conditions under which all aspects of our national culture can thrive - in a way that is not possible without it. In this matter I am informed by this UN declaration https://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml" rel="nofollow - https://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml with particular emphasis on these two points:

"All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence."

2. It's a matter of the head. Several hunderd years of central rule/governance from London has served to exploit Wales for it's natural resources but has created no lasting comparitive prosperity. Labour having promised so much, to be the party of the working class, the means to modernise our country and bring about a better quality of life have over the course of the last hundred years stifled our communities and economy to the point that West Wales and the Valleys have a GDP per head of 70% of the roUK and the country as a whole receives more emergency food packages per head from the Trussel Trust than any other part of the UK. Remember this is the party that encouraged Welsh speakers not to pass on the language in the name of progress. Many other small countries that have gone on to gain their independence even in the face of dire warnings and ridicule have grown their economies. I contend that only by having our own sovereign government will we be able to build our internal market with all the infrastructure needed in its service that will lead to economic growth and prosperity.

Let me make one last important point. Wales currently has a significant trade surplus yet we have a comparatively low GVA and (although the figures are actually contestable to a significant degree) a tax and spend deficit. How can this be? Well it would appear that although we do produce a great deal for export, we add little value to it. In other words we export a lot of raw goods. Now since it has been of no benefit until now for the WAG to concern itself with economic growth given it's block grant (which has been used to administer the country as though as a glorified county council with all the attendant Labour Party hangers on), and that the structure of our economy is to service the economic centre of the UK (London) nothing has been done to change this. In fact there is no recognition of the need for this. This is very damaging. Without sustainable economies we do not have sustainable communities and consequently we are seeing a pretty disastrous demographic shift. A sovereign Welsh Parliament with responsibility for raising its own taxes would not be able to get away with such bad policy. For example it would be in its interests to encourage growth in homegrown industries. For example West Wales once had a thriving wollen industry. I would be quite generous if I described what remains as a "cottage" industry. However there is a potential brand here that could be commercially exploited. Welsh textile patterns are unique and remain desirable. So with a government (and banking sector) supporting private enterprise and buliding the infrastructure needed to sustain a growing textiles industry (I take it Will Chips is the the man to talk to vis a vis textiles. Maybe Speedy could have an input into the designs Wink), we could add value to a product that we can currently barely give away and bring a healthy profit into the country, increasing prosperity and the tax base. This helps secure the sustainability and prosperity of local communities and reduce the brain drain from the country. Why wouldn't we want to do this? This is just the sort of approach that needs to be multiplied many times over.

So there we have it. Why I think independence is necessary.



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"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 04 September 2018 at 11:41am
There's 2 debates here, the first one is about independence, the second is about how the Scarlets name and badge is being used in relation to this group, and although this debate sits in the chat section I'd imagine that there's plenty of Scarlets fans that care more about the latter debate.


Posted By: Il_Gigante_Buono
Date Posted: 06 September 2018 at 1:37am
if only the irish had thought like some of the people here maybe they could be one of the poorest nations in europe thanks to the union than one of the richest per capita. The union has failed wales and will never work for wales. Proof northern ireland poor, Republic of ireland rich. Without control over our own country we are destined to be a county in england especially when scotland and northern Ireland leave like they will.


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 06 September 2018 at 10:06am
I think the main issue is how would persuade the masses espeacially people like my parents in their 70’s who
A think labour can do no wrong
B have been brainwashed to an extent in believing that leave would be the end of the world
I am in heart supportive of it and when examples such as your are explained with substance and examples of trade it makes things more palatable but who would lead as stated the current crop of self serving MP’s are not fit for purpose


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 06 September 2018 at 12:57pm
Frankly the lack of political talent is not restricted to Wales. There are very few who inspire loyalty amongst their own kind let alone joe public.


Posted By: diego6754
Date Posted: 06 September 2018 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Il_Gigante_Buono Il_Gigante_Buono wrote:

if only the irish had thought like some of the people here maybe they could be one of the poorest nations in europe thanks to the union than one of the richest per capita. The union has failed wales and will never work for wales. Proof northern ireland poor, Republic of ireland rich. Without control over our own country we are destined to be a county in england especially when scotland and northern Ireland leave like they will.
 

I'm see where your going with this but i'm not sure ROI is the best example. Their riches of the 2000's were based on huge public debt and massive infrastructure grants from Europe, which in turn created jobs...wealth etc etc these grants being based on the relative under development of their economy and infrastructure. When this bubble of grants and borrowing burst 2008-2012 the country nearly went bankrupt. It was very very bad there. Far far worse than here and they still face huge economic challenges. Although things have improved, its not pretty.


Posted By: N14
Date Posted: 07 September 2018 at 4:28pm
I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of Welsh independence. In the unlikely event that we had a Welsh Independence Referendum I would not only vote against it but would probably campaign against it too. However that doesn't mean that the debate shouldn't be had, and I don't believe in attempting to shut down the voices of those you disagree with. The original poster made it quite clear that they would in no way wish to imply that the club supported the cause, or that the cause was representative of the Scarlets fanbase as a whole. The proposal is to start a group for Scarlets fans who also happen to be in support of Welsh Independence, and this should be perfectly acceptable, just as it should be to start a group for Scarlets fans who also happen to back Brexit, or vote for the Conservatives/Labour, or any other agenda. People who call themselves inclusive and liberal are often neither of those things, and attempt to shout people down at any given opportunity just because they don't agree with what the other is saying. This is plainly wrong and is not how political "discussion" should be carried out, and therefore I see no issue with what has been proposed.

As for Welsh independence, I believe that we are much stronger as part of the United Kingdom than we would be on our own. We wouldn't have the military capabilities to defend ourselves, our economy probably isn't strong enough for us to stand on our own two feet, and besides...if we had Welsh independence then we really would be governed by socialists such as those in the Labour Party or Plaid Cymru, which would be disastrous to the country and to the people of Wales.



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