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The Brexit bonus...

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Topic: The Brexit bonus...
Posted By: aber-fan
Subject: The Brexit bonus...
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 1:48pm
apparently includes the closure of Schaeffler in Llanelli, with the loss of 250 jobs:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458" rel="nofollow - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458

"Around 250 jobs are at risk in south Wales after a multi-national company said it was closing one of its sites, due to 'uncertainty surrounding Brexit'.

Schaeffler, which supplies automotive and industrial parts all over the world, is to close its  https://www.walesonline.co.uk/all-about/llanelli" rel="nofollow - Llanelli  plant, while retaining its biggest UK base in Sheffield. 

The company said it wanted to relocate production to other plants in the US, China, South Korea and Germany."

The need for accuracy means that I also include this 'excuse quote' for Brexiters:

"Explaining the decision, the company’s Regional CEO for Europe, Juergen Ziegler, said that while Brexit was not the only reason behind the decision to close two sites, it had “brought forward” their decision."

In the meantime, serial liar Aaron Banks is being run down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883

Pro-Brexit campaign group Leave.EU and an insurance company owned by its founder Arron Banks face total fines of £135,000 over breaches of data laws.

(Basically, Banks used the Leave.EU subscribers a bribe in the form of a cut in insurance rates.)

It's a pity Boris and Farage are not being charged with 'something' as well, considering all the lies they came out with - who came up with the joke figure of £350 million a week for the NHS?

No doubt someone can come up with a 'reason' why we should go ahead with Brexit  - but it won't be a good one. Maybe a racist 'keep the wogs out' effort, along the lines of Trump's current campaign?





-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)



Replies:
Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

apparently includes the closure of Schaeffler in Llanelli, with the loss of 250 jobs:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458" rel="nofollow - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458

"Around 250 jobs are at risk in south Wales after a multi-national company said it was closing one of its sites, due to 'uncertainty surrounding Brexit'.

Schaeffler, which supplies automotive and industrial parts all over the world, is to close its  https://www.walesonline.co.uk/all-about/llanelli" rel="nofollow - Llanelli  plant, while retaining its biggest UK base in Sheffield. 

The company said it wanted to relocate production to other plants in the US, China, South Korea and Germany."

The need for accuracy means that I also include this 'excuse quote' for Brexiters:

"Explaining the decision, the company’s Regional CEO for Europe, Juergen Ziegler, said that while Brexit was not the only reason behind the decision to close two sites, it had “brought forward” their decision."

In the meantime, serial liar Aaron Banks is being run down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883

Pro-Brexit campaign group Leave.EU and an insurance company owned by its founder Arron Banks face total fines of £135,000 over breaches of data laws.

(Basically, Banks used the Leave.EU subscribers a bribe in the form of a cut in insurance rates.)

It's a pity Boris and Farage are not being charged with 'something' as well, considering all the lies they came out with - who came up with the joke figure of £350 million a week for the NHS?

No doubt someone can come up with a 'reason' why we should go ahead with Brexit  - but it won't be a good one. Maybe a racist 'keep the wogs out' effort, along the lines of Trump's current campaign?



Clap 

-------------
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:16pm
Oh, and some more Brexit bonus good news hot off the presses - though not local to Llanelli:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213

Dundee Michelin factory workers have spoken of their shock after the company announced its intention to close the plant, with the loss of all 845 jobs. 

The tyre factory will close by mid-2020 after the French firm deemed it "unsuitable" in the current climate.





-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:26pm
Meanwhile, Tory Brexit supporters make it clear that they don't give a tuppeny damn for the continued integrity of the UK (they could not care less if the Scots leave), or what is even more disgusting, they could not care if the peace process in NI comes to an end as a result:

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-11-05/poll-shows-that-brexit-deal-with-eu-is-least-favourite-option-with-welsh-voters/" rel="nofollow - https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-11-05/poll-shows-that-brexit-deal-with-eu-is-least-favourite-option-with-welsh-voters/

So much for what used to be called the 'Conservative AND UNIONIST party'! I would be interested to hear HM the Queen's views on the current Tory party and its supporters (of course, I'm a republican, but embarrassment of Tories and royalty is always an occasion for a degree of schadenfreude.)



-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: redeyes
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Oh, and some more Brexit bonus good news hot off the presses - though not local to Llanelli:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213

Dundee Michelin factory workers have spoken of their shock after the company announced its intention to close the plant, with the loss of all 845 jobs. 

The tyre factory will close by mid-2020 after the French firm deemed it "unsuitable" in the current climate.




The michelin factory closure had nothing whatsoever to do with brexit though.


-------------
The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!




Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:47pm
52 % will agree and 48% won’t!   It’s all done now anyway. BBC business news just pointed out that the company sells. 85% of parts to the EU which tells you something and companies want friction free sales zones so I know who has killed this 60 year old enterprise in Llanelli. Bet Boris and Moggy and Farage are gutted 😂

-------------
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Oh, and some more Brexit bonus good news hot off the presses - though not local to Llanelli:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213

Dundee Michelin factory workers have spoken of their shock after the company announced its intention to close the plant, with the loss of all 845 jobs. 

The tyre factory will close by mid-2020 after the French firm deemed it "unsuitable" in the current climate.




The michelin factory closure had nothing whatsoever to do with brexit though.

I'm not convinced... 
 




-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: redeyes
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Oh, and some more Brexit bonus good news hot off the presses - though not local to Llanelli:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-46109213

Dundee Michelin factory workers have spoken of their shock after the company announced its intention to close the plant, with the loss of all 845 jobs. 

The tyre factory will close by mid-2020 after the French firm deemed it "unsuitable" in the current climate.




The michelin factory closure had nothing whatsoever to do with brexit though.

I'm not convinced... 
 


John Reid, factory manager at Michelin Dundee, said: "I have been part of Michelin Dundee for 26 years and I am very proud of the hard work and dedication shown by the team here.

"This factory has faced incredibly tough challenges before and we have come through thanks to the hard work and flexibility of our people and the union, and the backing of the Michelin Group.

"However, the market for the smaller tyres we make has changed dramatically and permanently, and the company has to address these structural changes.

"The proposals are nothing to do with the UK's decision to leave the EU, and they are absolutely not a reflection of the performance of the plant or the people who have worked so hard here for so many years."




-------------
The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!




Posted By: EssexTurk
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

apparently includes the closure of Schaeffler in Llanelli, with the loss of 250 jobs:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458" rel="nofollow - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458

"<span style="color: rgb20, 20, 20; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; : transparent;">Around 250 jobs are at risk in south Wales after a multi-national company said it was closing one of its sites, due to 'uncertainty surrounding Brexit'.</span>
<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;">Schaeffler, which supplies automotive and industrial parts all over the world, is to close its  https://www.walesonline.co.uk/all-about/llanelli" rel="nofollow - Llanelli  plant, while retaining its biggest UK base in Sheffield. 

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;">The company said it wanted to relocate production to other plants in the US, China, South Korea and Germany."

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="font-size: small; : transparent;">The need for accuracy means that I also include this 'excuse quote' for Brexiters:</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;">"Explaining the decision, the company’s Regional CEO for Europe, Juergen Ziegler, said that while Brexit was not the only reason behind the decision to close two sites, it had “brought forward” their decision."

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;">In the meantime, serial liar Aaron Banks is being run down:

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Pro-Brexit campaign group Leave.EU and an insurance company owned by its founder Arron Banks face total fines of £135,000 over breaches of data laws.</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">(Basically, Banks used the Leave.EU subscribers a bribe in the form of a cut in insurance rates.)</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">It's a pity Boris and Farage are not being charged with 'something' as well, considering all the lies they came out with - who came up with the joke figure of £350 million a week for the NHS?</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">No doubt someone can come up with a 'reason' why we should go ahead with Brexit  - but it won't be a good one. Maybe a racist 'keep the wogs out' effort, along the lines of Trump's current campaign?</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;"><span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: bold;">
</span>

<p style=": transparent; border: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 23px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: line; font-family: ' Sans', sans-serif; color: rgb20, 20, 20; line-height: 1.8;">




Must be Brexit, because after all, as the article says, they are moving production to eu countries like Germany, China, USA and South Korea....... Oh wait. You mean to say that China, USA and South Korea aren't in the eu?

Fake news bull#*%t at it's finest.

Instead try cheap labour and production costs for far east, and avoidance of US import duties (recently increased by Trump to break the eu/German protectionism) for US engineering production.


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 8:16pm
They interviewed the people working there and none of them blamed Brexit, they stated things weren't looking good there a while back mainly because petrol and diesel engines have started to be phased out in pursuit of green engines

-------------
If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 06 November 2018 at 11:50pm
Fake news to bash on brexit. Any excuse to move their business abroad for cheap af Labor.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 6:01am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

apparently includes the closure of Schaeffler in Llanelli, with the loss of 250 jobs:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458" rel="nofollow - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458

"Around 250 jobs are at risk in south Wales after a multi-national company said it was closing one of its sites, due to 'uncertainty surrounding Brexit'.

Schaeffler, which supplies automotive and industrial parts all over the world, is to close its  https://www.walesonline.co.uk/all-about/llanelli" rel="nofollow - Llanelli  plant, while retaining its biggest UK base in Sheffield. 

The company said it wanted to relocate production to other plants in the US, China, South Korea and Germany."

The need for accuracy means that I also include this 'excuse quote' for Brexiters:

"Explaining the decision, the company’s Regional CEO for Europe, Juergen Ziegler, said that while Brexit was not the only reason behind the decision to close two sites, it had “brought forward” their decision."

In the meantime, serial liar Aaron Banks is being run down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883

Pro-Brexit campaign group Leave.EU and an insurance company owned by its founder Arron Banks face total fines of £135,000 over breaches of data laws.

(Basically, Banks used the Leave.EU subscribers a bribe in the form of a cut in insurance rates.)

It's a pity Boris and Farage are not being charged with 'something' as well, considering all the lies they came out with - who came up with the joke figure of £350 million a week for the NHS?

No doubt someone can come up with a 'reason' why we should go ahead with Brexit  - but it won't be a good one. Maybe a racist 'keep the wogs out' effort, along the lines of Trump's current campaign?



WOW! how did that get past the mods?


-------------
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 9:00am
I was thinking recently about how, in a capitalist economy, it is simply about 'growth' at all costs. And even the question why is it a good thing GDP increases? As a metric I would have thought wealth equality or even happiness to be far better factors to judge how 'well' a country is doing and how attractive it is to remain living there. But no, it is all about whether other seriously rich countries/people/companies wish to invest further in your country, thus continuing this rather odd cycle of increasing wealth/GDP for the sake of it.

This is so ingrained within the capitalist dogma that I think many - particularly those at the top and in the House of Commons - would laugh at me or simply not understand. But then GDP and wealth literally buys international power and influence, so perhaps that's what it's all about. The US is a good example of this as they clearly do not give a crap about their own citizens and have huge issues with poverty, homelessness, inequality, racism, crime you name it. I think it also reflects a shift: Governments and politicians now serve business. They attempt to regulate them maybe, such as pleeeease pay tax Google, but we know who needs who more and also that the interests of business certainly aren't that of the country they are in, let alone the people of that country.

This article (yes, in the Guardian) brought parts of this to my attention:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/05/the-finance-curse-how-the-outsized-power-of-the-city-of-london-makes-britain-poorer" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/05/the-finance-curse-how-the-outsized-power-of-the-city-of-london-makes-britain-poorer



Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 9:41am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

apparently includes the closure of Schaeffler in Llanelli, with the loss of 250 jobs:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458" rel="nofollow - https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/live-updates-250-jobs-axed-15377458

"Around 250 jobs are at risk in south Wales after a multi-national company said it was closing one of its sites, due to 'uncertainty surrounding Brexit'.

Schaeffler, which supplies automotive and industrial parts all over the world, is to close its  https://www.walesonline.co.uk/all-about/llanelli" rel="nofollow - Llanelli  plant, while retaining its biggest UK base in Sheffield. 

The company said it wanted to relocate production to other plants in the US, China, South Korea and Germany."

The need for accuracy means that I also include this 'excuse quote' for Brexiters:

"Explaining the decision, the company’s Regional CEO for Europe, Juergen Ziegler, said that while Brexit was not the only reason behind the decision to close two sites, it had “brought forward” their decision."

In the meantime, serial liar Aaron Banks is being run down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46109883

Pro-Brexit campaign group Leave.EU and an insurance company owned by its founder Arron Banks face total fines of £135,000 over breaches of data laws.

(Basically, Banks used the Leave.EU subscribers a bribe in the form of a cut in insurance rates.)

It's a pity Boris and Farage are not being charged with 'something' as well, considering all the lies they came out with - who came up with the joke figure of £350 million a week for the NHS?

No doubt someone can come up with a 'reason' why we should go ahead with Brexit  - but it won't be a good one. Maybe a racist 'keep the wogs out' effort, along the lines of Trump's current campaign?



WOW! how did that get past the mods?

You do, of course, understand my point that many people who voted for Brexit did so for precisely that reason - even though it'll cost us economically. Trump has been using a (much cruder) approach in America, before yesterday's elections. 
You will of course also understand, if you read what I wrote, that it is an attitude I abhor.

(I do not say 'ALL' Brexit voters are racist, as that clearly would not be true or accurate... it is, nevertheless, a strong driver for many pro-Brexit voters.)


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 9:47am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I was thinking recently about how, in a capitalist economy, it is simply about 'growth' at all costs. And even the question why is it a good thing GDP increases? As a metric I would have thought wealth equality or even happiness to be far better factors to judge how 'well' a country is doing and how attractive it is to remain living there. But no, it is all about whether other seriously rich countries/people/companies wish to invest further in your country, thus continuing this rather odd cycle of increasing wealth/GDP for the sake of it.

This is so ingrained within the capitalist dogma that I think many - particularly those at the top and in the House of Commons - would laugh at me or simply not understand. But then GDP and wealth literally buys international power and influence, so perhaps that's what it's all about. The US is a good example of this as they clearly do not give a crap about their own citizens and have huge issues with poverty, homelessness, inequality, racism, crime you name it. I think it also reflects a shift: Governments and politicians now serve business. They attempt to regulate them maybe, such as pleeeease pay tax Google, but we know who needs who more and also that the interests of business certainly aren't that of the country they are in, let alone the people of that country.

This article (yes, in the Guardian) brought parts of this to my attention:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/05/the-finance-curse-how-the-outsized-power-of-the-city-of-london-makes-britain-poorer" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/05/the-finance-curse-how-the-outsized-power-of-the-city-of-london-makes-britain-poorer


Of course, you are 100% correct in you analysis.

The very rich are making fools of the rest of us, as they have the top politicians in their pockets (you only need to look at how such people - and top civil servants and top military bods) - move on to very well paid jobs when they quit, usually jobs that require minimal time and effort. 

The very rich also control most of the newspapers, and are themselves tax dodgers, so it's no surprise that their PoV is the one pushed in the papers... since it suits their purpose to weaken regulation in the UK, to make money laundering and tax dodging easier, these papers supported Brexit. And people believe what they read, more's the pity!

If only more read Private Eye (for example) they would know what a horribly corrupt country the UK has become.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 9:48am
The vast majority of our work is exported outside Europe (yes i work there. For now.) During the meeting they only briefly mentioned brexit. The media make out it was the main reason. I think they’re using those headlines just to be topical. Mechanical tappets are also being phased out because the future is electric and hybrid cars. So the writing has been on the cards way before brexit.


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Sosban bach Sosban bach wrote:

Fake news to bash on brexit. Any excuse to move their business abroad for cheap af Labor.
 

Exactly - It's called Globalism or Neo-liberalism and it's been the main driving force in the west for years.

It also works within the EU, which was established to promote "the free movement of Capital and Labour" within its member countries. That is you can move the capital (investment) to where the labour (wages) is cheapest eg Poland or east Europe. 
Who does this benefit? Not the workers who are in a race to the bottom (lowest wages). It benefits the richest 1 % with the money to invest and make more money.
 As noted  in another post the Schaeffler workers were not blaming Brexit as they had seen their work decrease in the  years before. However the media immediately implied that it was due to Brexit.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 7:29pm
Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?
I would rather believe postcode than anything the bbc says.


-------------
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 07 November 2018 at 10:10pm
aber-fan
 As I argued in my previous post, the EU is just a cosy capitalist club designed to let capitalists accumulate more capital by playing off workers in different countries against each other. Surely you don't expect me to defend or mourn such an organisation just because some Neanderthal* Empire Loyalists  also want to leave for other reasons. 
Once out, it is up to the UK, who to trade with and although we currently behave completely like US lapdogs (despite being in a much bigger organisation-the EU) and sanction any countries which our US masters want to destroy or dominate. The Chinese and Russians are currently jointly working on long-range, wide bodied airliners, of the type which Airbus has a lot of experience in producing. If Airbus decide they no longer want the UK to make their wings, I'm sure our skills will be appreciated. elsewhere. 
* apologies to Neanderthals if I have insulted them by comparing them to Sun readers.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 1:41am
Our politicians have in effect given over a majority of the responsibility for our laws , tariffs, funding / redistribution duties, licensing, rules and regulations over to the EU for the past 40 years. But now faced with the monumental task of actually doing the job they were voted to do. This is probably what scares them the most. There'll be far less time for reality tv roles, ghost writing columns and endless meaningless tv punch and judy interviews... when brexit kicks in. Bless. No doubt they will be demanding huge wage increases in order to do their actual job.



-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

aber-fan
 As I argued in my previous post, the EU is just a cosy capitalist club designed to let capitalists accumulate more capital by playing off workers in different countries against each other. Surely you don't expect me to defend or mourn such an organisation just because some Neanderthal* Empire Loyalists  also want to leave for other reasons. 
Once out, it is up to the UK, who to trade with and although we currently behave completely like US lapdogs (despite being in a much bigger organisation-the EU) and sanction any countries which our US masters want to destroy or dominate. The Chinese and Russians are currently jointly working on long-range, wide bodied airliners, of the type which Airbus has a lot of experience in producing. If Airbus decide they no longer want the UK to make their wings, I'm sure our skills will be appreciated. elsewhere. 
* apologies to Neanderthals if I have insulted them by comparing them to Sun readers.

Totally agree. Its been an undemocratic unelected commission and lovely coporate lobby group for decades. Isnt it strange how the more politicians we seem to have across europe Uk wales etc (and the numbers have trebled in the past 40 years with endless EU expansion and devolved governments.) yet with the vast rise in politicians we see the massive corporations regulated even less, less taxed, less answerable than ever before. Lets do the maths and lets join up the dots. One way or another these politicans seem to lose their teeth. How and why? Well theyre all in bed together and to play on the teeth analogy , lets just say the massive corporations offer these politicians free dental care for life if they promise not to bite them. 

Who could ever forget that paragon of virtue, george gideon osbourne celebrating as the government clawed all of 3% in taxes from google. What a champion of wealth redistribution eh? Or the panama papers where the endless offshore tax havens for all massive corporations were revealed and absolutely nothing was done about. This is why we see endless virtue signalling. Politicians trained in how to fake sincerity, look tough, clench those fingers point forcefully shout over each other on tv. All a ruse to simply avoid actual proper discussion and debate. Its mostly just panto. 

As for the whole brexit who lied, the mass hysteria exaggeration and dodgy data on both sides was embarrassing and deliberate. 




-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:08am
As long as they keep the trains running on time....


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 10:09am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?

I have to say I have been a little surprised at the tone of your recent posts bearing in mind I usually find your views well thought out and carefully presented. The two examples of companies closing/moving are absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. More to do with falling demand - in a global economy these are the harsh realities of trading. Obviously it is a very sad day for the people affected but harsh economic decisions are happening all over Europe every day. 

As for your comment regarding racism I will, as a Brexit supporter, choose to ignore it and explain it as you having a bad day!!!!!


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?
I would rather believe postcode than anything the bbc says.

It's not the BBC saying it, but a spokesman for the company. They are just reporting.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

aber-fan
 As I argued in my previous post, the EU is just a cosy capitalist club designed to let capitalists accumulate more capital by playing off workers in different countries against each other. Surely you don't expect me to defend or mourn such an organisation just because some Neanderthal* Empire Loyalists  also want to leave for other reasons. 
Once out, it is up to the UK, who to trade with and although we currently behave completely like US lapdogs (despite being in a much bigger organisation-the EU) and sanction any countries which our US masters want to destroy or dominate. The Chinese and Russians are currently jointly working on long-range, wide bodied airliners, of the type which Airbus has a lot of experience in producing. If Airbus decide they no longer want the UK to make their wings, I'm sure our skills will be appreciated. elsewhere. 
* apologies to Neanderthals if I have insulted them by comparing them to Sun readers.

Well, you're half right.

The British do indeed behave as lapdogs of the USA (the Iraq war being a recent, and tragic, example). 

You seem to think that we'll become more independent of the USA outside the EU, and that Broughton will sell wings to the Russians.

I can confidently predict that neither of those things will come to pass.

You know the old saying about the tent - it's better to be on the inside pissing out, than on the outside pissing in. I thnk that sums up the position the UK will find itself if/when Brexit happens.

BTW - what is your view on Scottish independence? They voted against Brexit, and if it is forced upon them ,there is a real possibility that Scotland will leave the UK.

If and when that happens, Wales will be linked to England, with its strong Tory majority. Do you REALLY want to be ruled by the Tories until kingdom come?


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

aber-fan
 As I argued in my previous post, the EU is just a cosy capitalist club designed to let capitalists accumulate more capital by playing off workers in different countries against each other. Surely you don't expect me to defend or mourn such an organisation just because some Neanderthal* Empire Loyalists  also want to leave for other reasons. 
Once out, it is up to the UK, who to trade with and although we currently behave completely like US lapdogs (despite being in a much bigger organisation-the EU) and sanction any countries which our US masters want to destroy or dominate. The Chinese and Russians are currently jointly working on long-range, wide bodied airliners, of the type which Airbus has a lot of experience in producing. If Airbus decide they no longer want the UK to make their wings, I'm sure our skills will be appreciated. elsewhere. 
* apologies to Neanderthals if I have insulted them by comparing them to Sun readers.

Totally agree. Its been an undemocratic unelected commission and lovely coporate lobby group for decades. Isnt it strange how the more politicians we seem to have across europe Uk wales etc (and the numbers have trebled in the past 40 years with endless EU expansion and devolved governments.) yet with the vast rise in politicians we see the massive corporations regulated even less, less taxed, less answerable than ever before. Lets do the maths and lets join up the dots. One way or another these politicans seem to lose their teeth. How and why? Well theyre all in bed together and to play on the teeth analogy , lets just say the massive corporations offer these politicians free dental care for life if they promise not to bite them. 

Who could ever forget that paragon of virtue, george gideon osbourne celebrating as the government clawed all of 3% in taxes from google. What a champion of wealth redistribution eh? Or the panama papers where the endless offshore tax havens for all massive corporations were revealed and absolutely nothing was done about. This is why we see endless virtue signalling. Politicians trained in how to fake sincerity, look tough, clench those fingers point forcefully shout over each other on tv. All a ruse to simply avoid actual proper discussion and debate. Its mostly just panto. 

As for the whole brexit who lied, the mass hysteria exaggeration and dodgy data on both sides was embarrassing and deliberate. 



I totally agree with the bit in bold- our (UK) politicians are a very corrupt lot, as I may have mentioned before (unless that was in another forum...?). Somehow, I think that leaving the EU will make things even worse, as the Tories are inextricably linked to the 'city' and all its shenanigans.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

aber-fan
 As I argued in my previous post, the EU is just a cosy capitalist club designed to let capitalists accumulate more capital by playing off workers in different countries against each other. Surely you don't expect me to defend or mourn such an organisation just because some Neanderthal* Empire Loyalists  also want to leave for other reasons. 
Once out, it is up to the UK, who to trade with and although we currently behave completely like US lapdogs (despite being in a much bigger organisation-the EU) and sanction any countries which our US masters want to destroy or dominate. The Chinese and Russians are currently jointly working on long-range, wide bodied airliners, of the type which Airbus has a lot of experience in producing. If Airbus decide they no longer want the UK to make their wings, I'm sure our skills will be appreciated. elsewhere. 
* apologies to Neanderthals if I have insulted them by comparing them to Sun readers.

Well, you're half right.

The British do indeed behave as lapdogs of the USA (the Iraq war being a recent, and tragic, example). 

You seem to think that we'll become more independent of the USA outside the EU, and that Broughton will sell wings to the Russians.

I can confidently predict that neither of those things will come to pass.

You know the old saying about the tent - it's better to be on the inside pissing out, than on the outside pissing in. I thnk that sums up the position the UK will find itself if/when Brexit happens.

BTW - what is your view on Scottish independence? They voted against Brexit, and if it is forced upon them ,there is a real possibility that Scotland will leave the UK.

If and when that happens, Wales will be linked to England, with its strong Tory majority. Do you REALLY want to be ruled by the Tories until kingdom come?

If the Scots decide to vote to leave the Uk there is nothing that we can really do to stop them - can't really see that as a fault of Brexit supporters. Personally I would much prefer to see Northern Ireland get independence - then we can stop having a Westminster Government being dictated to by a few Ulster folk!!!!!


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?

I have to say I have been a little surprised at the tone of your recent posts bearing in mind I usually find your views well thought out and carefully presented. The two examples of companies closing/moving are absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. More to do with falling demand - in a global economy these are the harsh realities of trading. Obviously it is a very sad day for the people affected but harsh economic decisions are happening all over Europe every day. 

As for your comment regarding racism I will, as a Brexit supporter, choose to ignore it and explain it as you having a bad day!!!!!

Well, I was having a bad day as it happens - but I do get VERY angry at the thought that the Brexit con was brought about by the lies of Farage, Boris and the rest. 

You may or may not choose to believe what the company in Llanelli said - namely that uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one of the factors leading to closure. I did make an assumption about the other closure in Scotland - my mistake.

The fact is that as it hasn't happened yet, there is bound to be speculation from supporters and opponents about the economic costs (I doubt that there will be benefits, but you may disagree). One thing is certain - before Brexit, my pounds on trips to France were buying €1.30 - €1.40 and more before the vote... being frequently above that level in 2015 - since the vote, the exchange rate has crashed - the best rate in 2018 was a bit above €1.15, and is currently just under that level. Now, I know that harold Wilson spoke about 'the pound in your pocket' when attempting to justify a devaluation of the £, but it dose have these consequences:

1. For those of us who travel frequently to the eurozone, everything costs around 15% more than it did a short while ago.
2. For those who import goods from the eurozone - and we import A LOT of food from there - the cost has increased by a similar amount.
3. Imports from the USA will also have increased in a comparable way.

TBH, I have not seen a single bit of proof that we in the UK will benefit economically from Brexit - the only 'benefit' (if such it is) will be to make it harder for people to come into the UK to work as dentists, nurses doctors - and, OK, plumbers and labourers. Are you really surprised that I believe that many people voted Brexit out of xenophobia? It seems self-evident to me - and the evidence is there to back that up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

I actually know personally a lovely German lady who decided to return 'home' after Brexit... someone who lived and worked here for more than 20 years. 

These are very sad, and dangerous times we live in.


-------------
I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 3:02pm
What we do outside the EU is totally up to us. I certainly hope that we give up our role as the lap-dog of the aggressive US Empire, with its 800 bases on foreign soil and continual threats, sanctions, insurgencies and attacks against anyone who do not bow or worship at the altar of US led neo-liberalism. It is obvious that the future (unless it ends in a nuclear holocaust) lies with the BRICS countries and the third world. In the last 25 years China has lifted 700 million people out of poverty!! and its plan is to lift everyone out of poverty in the next 10 years. These are the people who need us and we need to work and trade with. Perhaps we will then begin to make up for our shameful  years of slave trading and colonisation. Cymru was of course England's first colony and in the future I hope that we also will begin to assert our independence and  at least develop a more equal and less subservient relationship. 
To me the above is obvious, but clearly most people still accept the distorted worldview of the mainstream media  Fortunately there is an alternative media on the web and more and more are, beginning to abandon the BBC's ruling class interpretation of the world -so much so that there is the start of a panic and the call for more censorship of social media and alternative sites.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

<span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."</span>
<span style="color: rgb64, 64, 64; font-family: Helmet, Freesans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
</span>
So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?


I have to say I have been a little surprised at the tone of your recent posts bearing in mind I usually find your views well thought out and carefully presented. The two examples of companies closing/moving are absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. More to do with falling demand - in a global economy these are the harsh realities of trading. Obviously it is a very sad day for the people affected but harsh economic decisions are happening all over Europe every day. 

As for your comment regarding racism I will, as a Brexit supporter, choose to ignore it and explain it as you having a bad day!!!!!


Well, I was having a bad day as it happens - but I do get VERY angry at the thought that the Brexit con was brought about by the lies of Farage, Boris and the rest. 

You may or may not choose to believe what the company in Llanelli said - namely that uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one of the factors leading to closure. I did make an assumption about the other closure in Scotland - my mistake.

The fact is that as it hasn't happened yet, there is bound to be speculation from supporters and opponents about the economic costs (I doubt that there will be benefits, but you may disagree). One thing is certain - before Brexit, my pounds on trips to France were buying €1.30 - €1.40 and more before the vote... being frequently above that level in 2015 - since the vote, the exchange rate has crashed - the best rate in 2018 was a bit above €1.15, and is currently just under that level. Now, I know that harold Wilson spoke about 'the pound in your pocket' when attempting to justify a devaluation of the £, but it dose have these consequences:

1. For those of us who travel frequently to the eurozone, everything costs around 15% more than it did a short while ago.
2. For those who import goods from the eurozone - and we import A LOT of food from there - the cost has increased by a similar amount.
3. Imports from the USA will also have increased in a comparable way.

TBH, I have not seen a single bit of proof that we in the UK will benefit economically from Brexit - the only 'benefit' (if such it is) will be to make it harder for people to come into the UK to work as dentists, nurses doctors - and, OK, plumbers and labourers. Are you really surprised that I believe that many people voted Brexit out of xenophobia? It seems self-evident to me - and the evidence is there to back that up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

I actually know personally a lovely German lady who decided to return 'home' after Brexit... someone who lived and worked here for more than 20 years. 

These are very sad, and dangerous times we live in.


It’s to do with the fall in demand. Brexit has minimum effect. The article is very misleading. I was at the meeting where I was told I was losing my job. The media are obsessed with brexit. They’ve twisted the statement. Brexit is topical so they’re making their headlines topical. What we were told was totally different.


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 4:08pm
If it did not reinforce the overwhelming anti-Brexit ideology of the t.v. company bosses, do you think it would have been mentioned at all?


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 4:41pm
Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.


-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.

Rest of the EU?


-------------
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Hopefully we’ll get a chance to reverse this idiocy before it’s too late. It will be bad for the UK and terrible for Wales.

-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Rest of the EU?
The EU are a large chunk of the business operating world, no? So why cut ourselves off from them by leaving the single market?


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Hopefully we’ll get a chance to reverse this idiocy before it’s too late. It will be bad for the UK and terrible for Wales.


Good grief yes! Have you seen the prospects for Welsh hill farmers and the economy that depends on them? Dark days ahead for those (many Welsh speaking) communities.


-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: M.M.
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:21pm
Can anyone please explain to me how Llanelli and West Wales will benefit from leaving the EU.


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:23pm
Let’s sum it up.

We are one of the few UK regions with a trade surplus with the EU, so we are more reliant on Single Market membership than most areas because we still have something of a manufacturing base.

We are very reliant on inward investment ie international companies with pan-Euro operations setting up here because our record of nurturing indigenous businesses is not good.

We are a net beneficiary of EU structural funds. All the talk of this being our money returned is a misnomer. Welsh tax contributions to the UK contribution do not cover what we are getting back in funding.

Most of the country outside Cardiff (which voted over 60% remain) is around 95% UK born, so there can be no Farage-esque nonsense about ways of life being destroyed and pressure on public services. The immigrants we do have are overwhelmingly working, paying tax and supporting public services like the NHS.

Brexit is essentially a Tory policy that will result in a smaller state, so public sector employment and pay rises will be squeezed for, well, the foreseeable.

UK government will do trade deals with the USA and China. The Americans will decimate our agricultural industry and the Chinese will force our manufacturing into even more extreme competition, and that clearly includes steel.

So, all in all, what the hell were we thinking.


-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by M.M. M.M. wrote:

Can anyone please explain to me how Llanelli and West Wales will benefit from leaving the EU.


Ah, well see as rich blokes who are already well connected and wealthy get even richer some of the wealth will trickle down our way ... allegedly.

Unhappy


-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Let’s sum it up.

We are one of the few UK regions with a trade surplus with the EU, so we are more reliant on Single Market membership than most areas because we still have something of a manufacturing base.

We are very reliant on inward investment ie international companies with pan-Euro operations setting up here because our record of nurturing indigenous businesses is not good.

We are a net beneficiary of EU structural funds. All the talk of this being our money returned is a misnomer. Welsh tax contributions to the UK contribution do not cover what we are getting back in funding.

Most of the country outside Cardiff (which voted over 60% remain) is around 95% UK born, so there can be no Farage-esque nonsense about ways of life being destroyed and pressure on public services. The immigrants we do have are overwhelmingly working, paying tax and supporting public services like the NHS.

Brexit is essentially a Tory policy that will result in a smaller state, so public sector employment and pay rises will be squeezed for, well, the foreseeable.

UK government will do trade deals with the USA and China. The Americans will decimate our agricultural industry and the Chinese will force our manufacturing into even more extreme competition, and that clearly includes steel.

So, all in all, what the hell were we thinking.


Agree with everything you've said bar one thing. It appears that some 600k folk have left Wales over the last 20 years. It also appears that a similar number have moved the other way. At the same time the mean age of a Wales resident has been inching upwards. It's clear that younger people are leaving for economic opportunity and many older are coming here, probably because of the lower cost of living and housing. That is a shocking level of churn. When you match that with figures like 40% of house sales in some areas going as second homes it really makes me fearful for the future of our communities, particularly the last remaining Welsh speaking areas. Add the loss of the CAP and we are faced with massive demographic change. Will Wales as we know it still exist in another 20 years time?

It's not just Brexit, Wales has been shockingly poorly governed for eons now.


-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Hopefully we’ll get a chance to reverse this idiocy before it’s too late. It will be bad for the UK and terrible for Wales.


Good grief yes! Have you seen the prospects for Welsh hill farmers and the economy that depends on them? Dark days ahead for those (many Welsh speaking) communities.
and that has what to do with Brexit?

-------------
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:45pm
Yes but that’s overwhelmingly a UK issue, isn’t it. Young Welsh people moving to England for economic opportunities, being replaced by retirees from the other direction. Mainly caused by UK policy creating huge regional inequalities. And Brexit hands the people responsible a mandate and opportunity to ramp this up even more.

-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:


Regardless of the extent to which Brexit has influenced Schaeffler, the UK withdrawing from the European Single Market and Customs Union will put UK-based business with pan-European operations and supply chains at a permanent disadvantage in the future. That is beyond doubt. Moving parts, exporting and importing will not be as straightforward as it will be within the EU27.
The consequence of that will be reduced investment in the UK.
Well said Mike. Unbelievable that we as a country, actually voted to reduce our business and influence with the rest of the world.


Hopefully we’ll get a chance to reverse this idiocy before it’s too late. It will be bad for the UK and terrible for Wales.


Good grief yes! Have you seen the prospects for Welsh hill farmers and the economy that depends on them? Dark days ahead for those (many Welsh speaking) communities.
and that has what to do with Brexit?


The replacement of the EU CAP. It affects areas in Y Fro Gymraeg because they are overwhelmingly rural areas dependant on the agricultural economy.


-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: totallybiasedscarlet
Date Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Yes but that’s overwhelmingly a UK issue, isn’t it. Young Welsh people moving to England for economic opportunities, being replaced by retirees from the other direction. Mainly caused by UK policy creating huge regional inequalities. And Brexit hands the people responsible a mandate and opportunity to ramp this up even more.


Agree - Brexit will exacerbate this in many areas as the economy inevitably reconfigures. That's what hacks me off about this mainly right-driven vanity project. They don't care what the fall out is for communities. I think it will hit Wales disproportionately. It reminds me of the immediate post-industrial aftermath in S.Wales. There was a headlong ideological rush by the Thatcher government to shut down or otherwise reduce the UK's industrial sector and to hell with the social consequences. A similar thing happening again imho.


-------------
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 9:40am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Ffidel - it wasn't the 'media' - this is a direct quote from the BBC report:

"The firm said: "The uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one factor amongst others in the analysis of the UK market."

So - not the only consideration,  but it didn't help, did it?

I have been baffled for some time at the alliance over Brexit between purported left wingers such as yourself, and the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express and Sun on the other. Somehow, I didn't expect you and others of like views to get into bed with that lot!

It has to be remembered that Brexit hasn't happened yet - IMHO, things will get very much worse if and when it does. I do worry about the future of Airbus in N Wales, for example... it's already quite a logistical issue to ship the wings over to France. If on top of that there are red tape issues relating to customs and tariffs, etc, don't you think it likely that they'll just say: "Sod this for a lark - let's just make the wings in the EU'?

I have to say I have been a little surprised at the tone of your recent posts bearing in mind I usually find your views well thought out and carefully presented. The two examples of companies closing/moving are absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. More to do with falling demand - in a global economy these are the harsh realities of trading. Obviously it is a very sad day for the people affected but harsh economic decisions are happening all over Europe every day. 

As for your comment regarding racism I will, as a Brexit supporter, choose to ignore it and explain it as you having a bad day!!!!!

Well, I was having a bad day as it happens - but I do get VERY angry at the thought that the Brexit con was brought about by the lies of Farage, Boris and the rest. 

You may or may not choose to believe what the company in Llanelli said - namely that uncertainty surrounding Brexit was one of the factors leading to closure. I did make an assumption about the other closure in Scotland - my mistake.

The fact is that as it hasn't happened yet, there is bound to be speculation from supporters and opponents about the economic costs (I doubt that there will be benefits, but you may disagree). One thing is certain - before Brexit, my pounds on trips to France were buying €1.30 - €1.40 and more before the vote... being frequently above that level in 2015 - since the vote, the exchange rate has crashed - the best rate in 2018 was a bit above €1.15, and is currently just under that level. Now, I know that harold Wilson spoke about 'the pound in your pocket' when attempting to justify a devaluation of the £, but it dose have these consequences:

1. For those of us who travel frequently to the eurozone, everything costs around 15% more than it did a short while ago.
2. For those who import goods from the eurozone - and we import A LOT of food from there - the cost has increased by a similar amount.
3. Imports from the USA will also have increased in a comparable way.

TBH, I have not seen a single bit of proof that we in the UK will benefit economically from Brexit - the only 'benefit' (if such it is) will be to make it harder for people to come into the UK to work as dentists, nurses doctors - and, OK, plumbers and labourers. Are you really surprised that I believe that many people voted Brexit out of xenophobia? It seems self-evident to me - and the evidence is there to back that up:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

I actually know personally a lovely German lady who decided to return 'home' after Brexit... someone who lived and worked here for more than 20 years. 

These are very sad, and dangerous times we live in.

You fail to explain why this lady decided to return to Germany. Surely you are not suggesting that it was a direct result of the Brexit vote? Currencies fluctuate for a variety of reasons - I can recall the Euro being 1.05 long before the Brexit vote along with the dollar being almost equal to the £ again long before the Brexit vote. I have to have a wry smile when I hear ardent remainers quote Farage & Boris. What about the total bull...t which came out of the remain champions like Osborne.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about by both sides so let us try and get off our soap boxes and deal with the reality - a democratic vote took place; the Government are doing the correct thing and negotiating a leave deal. When that deal is done we can all have our opinions on the success of that deal but please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I voted leave because of exaggerations peddled by politicians. My reasons were more firmly rooted in basic common sense :-

1. Control of our own borders - not racist by the way just common sense;
2. Control of our judiciary;
3. Removal of being run by an unelected, unaudited, twin centred - Brussels/Strasbourg bunch of overpaid bureaucrats hell bent on a centralised Europe intent on removing National identities with one currency meant to work for 27 countries ranging from Germany to Greece. It doesn't work and will never work just ask the public sector workers in Greece.

There are very few worse things in life than a sore loser - so you remainers please get over it - the sun will still come up after Brexit and this nation of ours is still capable of overcoming the few bumps along the way to a better, less restricted future - and yes that does mean that there won't be food shortages or shortages of insulin - more bullsh.t peddled by remainers!!!!


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 9:54am
That’s mostly paranoid nonsense I’m afraid.

Anyway, no good will come of this debate. Hopefully there will be a second referendum so whatever type of Brexit we end up with (there are loads, and often contrary versions) can be given the final democratic legitimacy it requires (in my opinion), or rejected.

-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:07am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You fail to explain why this lady decided to return to Germany. Surely you are not suggesting that it was a direct result of the Brexit vote? Currencies fluctuate for a variety of reasons - I can recall the Euro being 1.05 long before the Brexit vote along with the dollar being almost equal to the £ again long before the Brexit vote. I have to have a wry smile when I hear ardent remainers quote Farage & Boris. What about the total bull...t which came out of the remain champions like Osborne.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about by both sides so let us try and get off our soap boxes and deal with the reality - a democratic vote took place; the Government are doing the correct thing and negotiating a leave deal. When that deal is done we can all have our opinions on the success of that deal but please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I voted leave because of exaggerations peddled by politicians. My reasons were more firmly rooted in basic common sense :-

1. Control of our own borders - not racist by the way just common sense;
2. Control of our judiciary;
3. Removal of being run by an unelected, unaudited, twin centred - Brussels/Strasbourg bunch of overpaid bureaucrats hell bent on a centralised Europe intent on removing National identities with one currency meant to work for 27 countries ranging from Germany to Greece. It doesn't work and will never work just ask the public sector workers in Greece.

There are very few worse things in life than a sore loser - so you remainers please get over it - the sun will still come up after Brexit and this nation of ours is still capable of overcoming the few bumps along the way to a better, less restricted future - and yes that does mean that there won't be food shortages or shortages of insulin - more bullsh.t peddled by remainers!!!!

Just to comment on this but it certainly is believable, be it either insecurity over the future and what it may hold, a dislike on the UK political trends that Brexit indicates, or yes, an excuse perhaps. I suspect similar things would apply to industry also. Brexit will make Britain a less favourable place to come to and stay in for EU residents for sure. This is part of the aim of the leave campaign, as I see it. Actually, now I think about it, that must be who "leave" refers to. Wink

Lets be honest though, a large part of Brexit is a protest vote because people are unhappy and want a change. It's not specifically aimed at our membership of the EU but more aspects of our own government and politicians. No one has really thought it through, let alone the people leading the leave campaign who I repeat had very little actual political power to implement the pipe dreams they sold. It's even to the point that people seem surprised it's such a complicated procedure and negotiations with the EU are needed, or that the Government would oversee it.

This thread is starting to get a bit personal as well - this is the biggest challenge in the next decade IMO be it second referendum or not - is trying to heal the rift. Calling people "sore losers" really doesn't help this BTW. Brexit feels like the most divisive thing I've experienced yet, more than the Iraq war, to the point of being a no-go conversation in friendship groups and families.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:24am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You fail to explain why this lady decided to return to Germany. Surely you are not suggesting that it was a direct result of the Brexit vote? Currencies fluctuate for a variety of reasons - I can recall the Euro being 1.05 long before the Brexit vote along with the dollar being almost equal to the £ again long before the Brexit vote. I have to have a wry smile when I hear ardent remainers quote Farage & Boris. What about the total bull...t which came out of the remain champions like Osborne.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about by both sides so let us try and get off our soap boxes and deal with the reality - a democratic vote took place; the Government are doing the correct thing and negotiating a leave deal. When that deal is done we can all have our opinions on the success of that deal but please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I voted leave because of exaggerations peddled by politicians. My reasons were more firmly rooted in basic common sense :-

1. Control of our own borders - not racist by the way just common sense;
2. Control of our judiciary;
3. Removal of being run by an unelected, unaudited, twin centred - Brussels/Strasbourg bunch of overpaid bureaucrats hell bent on a centralised Europe intent on removing National identities with one currency meant to work for 27 countries ranging from Germany to Greece. It doesn't work and will never work just ask the public sector workers in Greece.

There are very few worse things in life than a sore loser - so you remainers please get over it - the sun will still come up after Brexit and this nation of ours is still capable of overcoming the few bumps along the way to a better, less restricted future - and yes that does mean that there won't be food shortages or shortages of insulin - more bullsh.t peddled by remainers!!!!

Just to comment on this but it certainly is believable, be it either insecurity over the future and what it may hold, a dislike on the UK political trends that Brexit indicates, or yes, an excuse perhaps. I suspect similar things would apply to industry also. Brexit will make Britain a less favourable place to come to and stay in for EU residents for sure. This is part of the aim of the leave campaign, as I see it. Actually, now I think about it, that must be who "leave" refers to. Wink

Lets be honest though, a large part of Brexit is a protest vote because people are unhappy and want a change. It's not specifically aimed at our membership of the EU but more aspects of our own government and politicians. No one has really thought it through, let alone the people leading the leave campaign who I repeat had very little actual political power to implement the pipe dreams they sold. It's even to the point that people seem surprised it's such a complicated procedure and negotiations with the EU are needed, or that the Government would oversee it.

This thread is starting to get a bit personal as well - this is the biggest challenge in the next decade IMO be it second referendum or not - is trying to heal the rift. Calling people "sore losers" really doesn't help this BTW. Brexit feels like the most divisive thing I've experienced yet, more than the Iraq war, to the point of being a no-go conversation in friendship groups and families.

How would you describe the people who lost - I will accept your version. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

That’s mostly paranoid nonsense I’m afraid.

Anyway, no good will come of this debate. Hopefully there will be a second referendum so whatever type of Brexit we end up with (there are loads, and often contrary versions) can be given the final democratic legitimacy it requires (in my opinion), or rejected.

Well I note you are part of the moderator group - so I am paranoid & talking nonsense - very mature indeed. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:51am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You fail to explain why this lady decided to return to Germany. Surely you are not suggesting that it was a direct result of the Brexit vote? Currencies fluctuate for a variety of reasons - I can recall the Euro being 1.05 long before the Brexit vote along with the dollar being almost equal to the £ again long before the Brexit vote. I have to have a wry smile when I hear ardent remainers quote Farage & Boris. What about the total bull...t which came out of the remain champions like Osborne.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about by both sides so let us try and get off our soap boxes and deal with the reality - a democratic vote took place; the Government are doing the correct thing and negotiating a leave deal. When that deal is done we can all have our opinions on the success of that deal but please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I voted leave because of exaggerations peddled by politicians. My reasons were more firmly rooted in basic common sense :-

1. Control of our own borders - not racist by the way just common sense;
2. Control of our judiciary;
3. Removal of being run by an unelected, unaudited, twin centred - Brussels/Strasbourg bunch of overpaid bureaucrats hell bent on a centralised Europe intent on removing National identities with one currency meant to work for 27 countries ranging from Germany to Greece. It doesn't work and will never work just ask the public sector workers in Greece.

There are very few worse things in life than a sore loser - so you remainers please get over it - the sun will still come up after Brexit and this nation of ours is still capable of overcoming the few bumps along the way to a better, less restricted future - and yes that does mean that there won't be food shortages or shortages of insulin - more bullsh.t peddled by remainers!!!!

Just to comment on this but it certainly is believable, be it either insecurity over the future and what it may hold, a dislike on the UK political trends that Brexit indicates, or yes, an excuse perhaps. I suspect similar things would apply to industry also. Brexit will make Britain a less favourable place to come to and stay in for EU residents for sure. This is part of the aim of the leave campaign, as I see it. Actually, now I think about it, that must be who "leave" refers to. Wink

Lets be honest though, a large part of Brexit is a protest vote because people are unhappy and want a change. It's not specifically aimed at our membership of the EU but more aspects of our own government and politicians. No one has really thought it through, let alone the people leading the leave campaign who I repeat had very little actual political power to implement the pipe dreams they sold. It's even to the point that people seem surprised it's such a complicated procedure and negotiations with the EU are needed, or that the Government would oversee it.

This thread is starting to get a bit personal as well - this is the biggest challenge in the next decade IMO be it second referendum or not - is trying to heal the rift. Calling people "sore losers" really doesn't help this BTW. Brexit feels like the most divisive thing I've experienced yet, more than the Iraq war, to the point of being a no-go conversation in friendship groups and families.

How would you describe the people who lost - I will accept your version. 

OK, that was me being over-sensitive. There's worse things than being called a sore loser, I was just saying this thread is starting to get personal, as often happens with Brexit, which will prevent discussion. But I don't really think there's much back and forth at the moment on this topic anyway - I'd accept both sides lack of willingness to engage but it's something many people feel quite strongly about it.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 09 November 2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

You fail to explain why this lady decided to return to Germany. Surely you are not suggesting that it was a direct result of the Brexit vote? Currencies fluctuate for a variety of reasons - I can recall the Euro being 1.05 long before the Brexit vote along with the dollar being almost equal to the £ again long before the Brexit vote. I have to have a wry smile when I hear ardent remainers quote Farage & Boris. What about the total bull...t which came out of the remain champions like Osborne.

A lot of nonsense has been talked about by both sides so let us try and get off our soap boxes and deal with the reality - a democratic vote took place; the Government are doing the correct thing and negotiating a leave deal. When that deal is done we can all have our opinions on the success of that deal but please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I voted leave because of exaggerations peddled by politicians. My reasons were more firmly rooted in basic common sense :-

1. Control of our own borders - not racist by the way just common sense;
2. Control of our judiciary;
3. Removal of being run by an unelected, unaudited, twin centred - Brussels/Strasbourg bunch of overpaid bureaucrats hell bent on a centralised Europe intent on removing National identities with one currency meant to work for 27 countries ranging from Germany to Greece. It doesn't work and will never work just ask the public sector workers in Greece.

There are very few worse things in life than a sore loser - so you remainers please get over it - the sun will still come up after Brexit and this nation of ours is still capable of overcoming the few bumps along the way to a better, less restricted future - and yes that does mean that there won't be food shortages or shortages of insulin - more bullsh.t peddled by remainers!!!!

Just to comment on this but it certainly is believable, be it either insecurity over the future and what it may hold, a dislike on the UK political trends that Brexit indicates, or yes, an excuse perhaps. I suspect similar things would apply to industry also. Brexit will make Britain a less favourable place to come to and stay in for EU residents for sure. This is part of the aim of the leave campaign, as I see it. Actually, now I think about it, that must be who "leave" refers to. Wink

Lets be honest though, a large part of Brexit is a protest vote because people are unhappy and want a change. It's not specifically aimed at our membership of the EU but more aspects of our own government and politicians. No one has really thought it through, let alone the people leading the leave campaign who I repeat had very little actual political power to implement the pipe dreams they sold. It's even to the point that people seem surprised it's such a complicated procedure and negotiations with the EU are needed, or that the Government would oversee it.

This thread is starting to get a bit personal as well - this is the biggest challenge in the next decade IMO be it second referendum or not - is trying to heal the rift. Calling people "sore losers" really doesn't help this BTW. Brexit feels like the most divisive thing I've experienced yet, more than the Iraq war, to the point of being a no-go conversation in friendship groups and families.

How would you describe the people who lost - I will accept your version. 

OK, that was me being over-sensitive. There's worse things than being called a sore loser, I was just saying this thread is starting to get personal, as often happens with Brexit, which will prevent discussion. But I don't really think there's much back and forth at the moment on this topic anyway - I'd accept both sides lack of willingness to engage but it's something many people feel quite strongly about it.

You are correct Dr M. I try not to get involved in personal insults but when you have someone on this forum who is part of the moderator group referring to another poster as being paranoid or talking nonsense then what hope have we got. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 9:45am
I think one of the worst things about Brexit is the damage to trust in politicians. I admit to being a cynical thinker type character but I am one who considers arguments from sides who's views I don't think I share, plus I certainly respect facts. However, my trust in politicians is approaching zero, and they have no ability to present facts honestly. Result is I believe nothing they say. In fact, so few come from any sort of background like science or engineering, where dealing with facts, interpretation of results and problem solving are every day activities, as is considering the long-term impact and goals of what you do. Instead they've all studied PPE degrees here in Oxford where it's all about connections. You have to gain power to be able to apply your policies and there is a lot of charisma, charm, and internal political manoeuvring required for that, sure, but politics is too short-term and populist at present and politicians are intrinsically power-motivated. Quite frankly, there are some enormously significant challenges which none of them are addressing and instead we are stuck arguing about Brexit for what seems like a lifetime. I doubt I am alone in my generation for feeling this way, either. The frustration from the inability to actually change anything is there as well. At least Corbyn et al represent this, as did Brexit I suspect. 

For me, that this is now abundantly obvious to as many people as possible is the Brexit bonus. Perhaps we can start voting in some honest, intelligent politicians who want to do the best for the people of this country (not the [beep]ing economy) and are not just full of waffle, themselves and their business interests.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 9:56am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I think one of the worst things about Brexit is the damage to trust in politicians. I admit to being a cynical thinker type character but I am one who considers arguments from sides who's views I don't think I share, plus I certainly respect facts. However, my trust in politicians is approaching zero, and they have no ability to present facts honestly. Result is I believe nothing they say. In fact, so few come from any sort of useful background like science or engineering, where dealing with facts, interpretation of results and problem solving are every day activities, as is considering the long-term impact and goals of what you do. Instead they've all studied PPE degrees here in Oxford where it's all about connections. You have to gain power to be able to apply your policies and there is a lot of charisma, charm, and internal political manoeuvring required for that, sure, but politics is too short-term and populist at present and politicians are intrinsically power-motivated. Quite frankly, there are some enormously significant challenges which none of them are addressing and instead we are stuck arguing about Brexit for what seems like a lifetime. I doubt I am alone in my generation for feeling this way, either. The frustration from the inability to actually change anything is there as well. At least Corbyn et al represent this, as did Brexit I suspect. 

Fair points well made. I too feel that politicians in general have a very poor image - most of which they totally deserve. The longer this Brexit debate continues the more it appears that the so called Chequers Plan has very little chance of working or indeed getting accepted by parliament. If this is the case our government have wasted 3 months on something which never stood a chance from day one. At least David Davis and Boris Johnson had the gumption to voice their disagreement at the outset.


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 10:21am
UK boss of ThyssenKrupp with some very concerning words about Brexit here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/brexit-plan-complete-shambles-uk-boss-of-thyssenkrupp-says" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/brexit-plan-complete-shambles-uk-boss-of-thyssenkrupp-says
How many people does the company directly employ in Llanelli?


-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

UK boss of ThyssenKrupp with some very concerning words about Brexit here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/brexit-plan-complete-shambles-uk-boss-of-thyssenkrupp-says" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/12/brexit-plan-complete-shambles-uk-boss-of-thyssenkrupp-says
How many people does the company directly employ in Llanelli?

Llanelli is quoted as 56.7% leave (https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/every-leave-constituency-with-a-remain-mp/) although wikipedia says 55.4%. I can't find the exact numbers but Carmarthenshire was 55,381 Leave. 47,654 remain (74.1% turnout). 

So this is what the majority wanted, I'm afraid. It was completely predictable European-based companies would reconsider their position after a Leave vote so I can only think people were comfortable with that and it would be offset by other factors, possibly longer-term. But I can't speak for them and Leave POVs are on this and other threads.


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 5:23pm
It shocks me that so many on this forum have so little faith in what politicians tell us.  Doesn't this sort of thing inspire trust? -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98" rel="nofollow -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 12 November 2018 at 6:17pm
can Brexit be like swear words where you can't post it on the forum?

-------------
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 9:10am
All kicking off this morning. I wish I was earning royalties on "another one bites the dust".


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 10:27am
How much power do politicians really have ? westminster is over ridden on 80% of its laws by europe and the various regional / national assemblies/governments make more decisions than ever...Then you have the councils. The relationship between politicians and councils has always bemused me. What exactly is their relationship?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 10:29am
I notice andrew neil today stating the BBC is far too left wing and all its comedy output is purely left wing. I wouldnt agree about the whole agenda being left wing. Some of it purports to be left but is often pro corporation pro monarchy etc But I would agree on the political comedians being left leaning. Have I got news for you he attacks and again Id agree with him. Its become awfully predictable

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 10:37am
Most of the right wing comedians are in the House of Commons Roy.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 11:00am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Most of the right wing comedians are in the House of Commons Roy.
Lol LOL good point and theyre rubbish too
Looks like theres a few desertions today again
This brexit bill will be like shovelling poo uphill for teresa may
I dont think it will pass and I think her goose is cooked
Westminster is a laughing stock
The EU has simply sat back and laughed at the lot of them squabbling amongst themselves for 2 and a half years....whilst giving absolutely no concessions whatsoever. The EU hasnt really been involved.
It reminds me of the worst period in welsh rugby when ron waldrons neath/welsh team lost 63-6 to the wallabies and spent the after match dinner fighting amongst themselves. Thats all parliament has achieved in 2 and a half years. I think everyone in there shares some blame. The tories for their endless selfish petty infighting and labour for simply using this as a chance to regain power. 
Why cant they simply work together int he common cause?



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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Most of the right wing comedians are in the House of Commons Roy.
Lol LOL good point and theyre rubbish too
Looks like theres a few desertions today again
This brexit bill will be like shovelling poo uphill for teresa may
I dont think it will pass and I think her goose is cooked
Westminster is a laughing stock
The EU has simply sat back and laughed at the lot of them squabbling amongst themselves for 2 and a half years....whilst giving absolutely no concessions whatsoever. The EU hasnt really been involved.
It reminds me of the worst period in welsh rugby when ron waldrons neath/welsh team lost 63-6 to the wallabies and spent the after match dinner fighting amongst themselves. Thats all parliament has achieved in 2 and a half years. I think everyone in there shares some blame. The tories for their endless selfish petty infighting and labour for simply using this as a chance to regain power. 
Why cant they simply work together int he common cause?


Common cause - come on Roy this isn't a war. Lets face it the handling of the negotiations have been pathetic from the start. Whats the point in appointing a Brexit Minister if they aren't allowed to control negotiations? She has lost two of them so far, one is careless two is downright stupid!!!!!

The current deal for me has absolutely no chance of getting through the Commons so I don't see why everyone is getting so excited. Looks very much like a leadership challenge on the horizon to me. 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 1:11pm
I almost feel sorry for may here, shes being hammered, mostly by politicians who wouldnt have the backbone to take on this poisoned chalice. The likes of johnson and gove all quit so why they feel they have some moral high ground goodness knows

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

I almost feel sorry for may here, shes being hammered, mostly by politicians who wouldnt have the backbone to take on this poisoned chalice. The likes of johnson and gove all quit so why they feel they have some moral high ground goodness knows

Yes I feel sorry for her but its time she went in reality. Now time for the lads shouting from the back benches to prove that the deal they have all said was eminently doable - i.e. Canada plus is actually doable. They may, of course, find that things are a little different when you are the one in the firing line. 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 1:27pm
I shouldnt laugh but the tory mp for swansea just stabbed her in the front with the line..."congratulations on your hotel california deal, we can check out but we can never leave" lol 

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

I notice andrew neil today stating the BBC is far too left wing and all its comedy output is purely left wing. I wouldnt agree about the whole agenda being left wing. Some of it purports to be left but is often pro corporation pro monarchy etc But I would agree on the political comedians being left leaning. Have I got news for you he attacks and again Id agree with him. Its become awfully predictable
 

Saying that the BBC is far too left wing is the funniest one-liner I've heard in ages. They've done their best to slander Corbyn with ridiculous anti-Semitism slurs and their Brexit scaremongering  propaganda is top class. Foreign policy wise they could be running the Hilary Clinton fan club regardless of all the money she's taken from Saudi Arabia and her rigging the presidential candidate election against Bernie Sanders. I don't know how an intelligent person like Huw Edwards can sit in front of the cameras and read out the poisonous propaganda that they write for him. Surely he can see through the lies of the false-flags on 9/11, weapons of mass destruction, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, the Skripals etc etc Unfortunately him reading this rubbish gives it a gravitas it hardly deserves and does confuse a lot of people.


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:05pm
Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:06pm
Does anyone know why the word el1tist (spelt properly obviously) gets corrected to lovely?


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

I notice andrew neil today stating the BBC is far too left wing and all its comedy output is purely left wing. I wouldnt agree about the whole agenda being left wing. Some of it purports to be left but is often pro corporation pro monarchy etc But I would agree on the political comedians being left leaning. Have I got news for you he attacks and again Id agree with him. Its become awfully predictable
 

Saying that the BBC is far too left wing is the funniest one-liner I've heard in ages. They've done their best to slander Corbyn with ridiculous anti-Semitism slurs and their Brexit scaremongering  propaganda is top class. Foreign policy wise they could be running the Hilary Clinton fan club regardless of all the money she's taken from Saudi Arabia and her rigging the presidential candidate election against Bernie Sanders. I don't know how an intelligent person like Huw Edwards can sit in front of the cameras and read out the poisonous propaganda that they write for him. Surely he can see through the lies of the false-flags on 9/11, weapons of mass destruction, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, the Skripals etc etc Unfortunately him reading this rubbish gives it a gravitas it hardly deserves and does confuse a lot of people.

hilary is democrat , they certainly backed her over trump. I agree bernie was by far the best candidate of them all


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:16pm
[QUOTE=SospanMawr]Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.
[/QUOTE

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:36pm
Unfortunately the USA is a "two party", one party state and there is very little difference between the policies of the two parties. If genuinely asked the electorate wouldn't want the policies of either, preferring decent health care, reduced military spending and no foreign wars. The only difference between the two parties is their approach to some of the trendier movements eg the LGBT community.
Trump got elected promising better relations with Russia, less overseas intervention, a genuine enquiry into 9/11 etc, but where the power actually lies - the deep state has forced him to do the opposite in every case perhaps he was made an offer he couldn't refuse and decided he didn't want to finish like JFK.
Back to Brexit, just seen this interesting article by Craig Murray.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/11/goodbye-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/#respond" rel="nofollow - https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/11/goodbye-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/#respond  


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

[QUOTE=SospanMawr]Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.
[/QUOTE

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.

The EU were lining up a europe wide VAT increase, its already even higher than our 20% rate in most EU nations I wonder how that would help the under 20's? Its always mystified me how the tories falsely claim  to be the party of business and low taxes and yet labour always have lower rates of VAT than the tories. Labour should hammer them on that walking contradiction




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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.
Well on top of being unlikely to ever own homes, being saddled with higher than ever student debt (if you chose Further Education), historically low levels of interest being offered by banks, there are foodbanks being used more than ever, the practice of 0 hour contracts, being forced to retire later than any other generation, being perpetually tagged as “snowflakes” etc, Brexit is ensuring..
It’s going to be more expensive than ever to go abroad.
The pound is near its lowest ever
The NHS is knackered. The health secretary said he couldn’t “guarantee people wouldn’t die as a direct result of Brexit”
We have no definite freedom of movement to Europe
Firms are investing elsewhere

The youngest MP is 24 yet the average age is 50. 2% of MPs are under 30.
25% of MPs attended Oxford or Cambridge. 1 in 10 went to Eton.

In the recent 500 page + document released discussing the impact of Brexit, Wales was mentioned exactly 0 times.

Tell me why, as a young Welsh man, I should feel in any way positive?


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.
Well on top of being unlikely to ever own homes, being saddled with higher than ever student debt (if you chose Further Education), historically low levels of interest being offered by banks, there are foodbanks being used more than ever, the practice of 0 hour contracts, being forced to retire later than any other generation, being perpetually tagged as “snowflakes” etc, Brexit is ensuring..
It’s going to be more expensive than ever to go abroad.
The pound is near its lowest ever
The NHS is knackered. The health secretary said he couldn’t “guarantee people wouldn’t die as a direct result of Brexit”
We have no definite freedom of movement to Europe
Firms are investing elsewhere

The youngest MP is 24 yet the average age is 50. 2% of MPs are under 30.
25% of MPs attended Oxford or Cambridge. 1 in 10 went to Eton.

In the recent 500 page + document released discussing the impact of Brexit, Wales was mentioned exactly 0 times.

Tell me why, as a young Welsh man, I should feel in any way positive?

You're young and welsh - there's two reasons to feel good. 

I didn't know 1 in 10 MPs went to Eton. That explains the mess..... (sorry couldn't resist that one).


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.
Well on top of being unlikely to ever own homes, being saddled with higher than ever student debt (if you chose Further Education), historically low levels of interest being offered by banks, there are foodbanks being used more than ever, the practice of 0 hour contracts, being forced to retire later than any other generation, being perpetually tagged as “snowflakes” etc, Brexit is ensuring..
It’s going to be more expensive than ever to go abroad.
The pound is near its lowest ever
The NHS is knackered. The health secretary said he couldn’t “guarantee people wouldn’t die as a direct result of Brexit”
We have no definite freedom of movement to Europe
Firms are investing elsewhere

The youngest MP is 24 yet the average age is 50. 2% of MPs are under 30.
25% of MPs attended Oxford or Cambridge. 1 in 10 went to Eton.


In the recent 500 page + document released discussing the impact of Brexit, Wales was mentioned exactly 0 times.

Tell me why, as a young Welsh man, I should feel in any way positive?

I agree theres lots to be worried about, the uncertainty over brexit is damaging
But on the upside
unemployment is down to its lowest possibly ever in Wales and UK is only 4%
The steel works have rebounded well and creating new jobs
Wages have grown above inflation and above predictions
Pension and shares investments have gone up 40% since brexit
Wales is far cleaner now than it was during the industrial boom



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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.
I think you will find the propaganda machine was in full working order for both wings.

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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.

I think you will find the propaganda machine was in full working order for both wings.
I never said it wasn’t..? All the more reason the referendum was a sham.


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 15 November 2018 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Imagine being anyone under the age 20. You didn’t get the chance to vote, but this absolute pooeshow by the elite, illegal (?) right wing propaganda machine looks set to ruin your lives.

Thats another beauty - so now Brexit is going to ruin anyone under 20's lives. Brilliant you couldn't make this up.
Well on top of being unlikely to ever own homes, being saddled with higher than ever student debt (if you chose Further Education), historically low levels of interest being offered by banks, there are foodbanks being used more than ever, the practice of 0 hour contracts, being forced to retire later than any other generation, being perpetually tagged as “snowflakes” etc, Brexit is ensuring..
It’s going to be more expensive than ever to go abroad.
The pound is near its lowest ever
The NHS is knackered. The health secretary said he couldn’t “guarantee people wouldn’t die as a direct result of Brexit”
We have no definite freedom of movement to Europe
Firms are investing elsewhere

The youngest MP is 24 yet the average age is 50. 2% of MPs are under 30.
25% of MPs attended Oxford or Cambridge. 1 in 10 went to Eton.

In the recent 500 page + document released discussing the impact of Brexit, Wales was mentioned exactly 0 times.

Tell me why, as a young Welsh man, I should feel in any way positive?

Most of those issues occurred whilst part of the eu so don’t see how brexit has caused any of those? Affordable housing will have to move in a different direction to how we’ve been used to. Council houses bought up, ave living age increasing and the houses that get built can only be bought by the rich which we aren’t down here so why build them? Tough times ahead for the idea of a better future is what I see.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 11:15am
What's become obvious over the last few days to anyone capable of thought is that leaving the EU is going to cause considerable hardship to the UK for years to come, possibly decades.  There is no Brexit Bonus.

It looks like the deal that May has negotiated will not get through Parliament.  What Next?  The EU will not negotiate another deal with this Government. It's either this deal or no deal.

So what if May goes and we get a new PM; what then?   Will the EU consider a new deal with a new Government?  Maybe but there is little time to negotiate a new deal and the EU is unlikely to accept a harder deal (from their perspective) than the one already on the table.

So we are left with this 'negotiated deal' that nobody wants or a 'no deal' which will be worse.

It looks increasingly likely that the only way forward given that Government of the UK has broken down, is to hold another referendum and ask the people, now that they now the mess we are in; if this really is what they want.

God help us if a new referendum ends up in 'leave'





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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

What's become obvious over the last few days to anyone capable of thought is that leaving the EU is going to cause considerable hardship to the UK for years to come, possibly decades.  There is no Brexit Bonus.

It looks like the deal that May has negotiated will not get through Parliament.  What Next?  The EU will not negotiate another deal with this Government. It's either this deal or no deal.

So what if May goes and we get a new PM; what then?   Will the EU consider a new deal with a new Government?  Maybe but there is little time to negotiate a new deal and the EU is unlikely to accept a harder deal (from their perspective) than the one already on the table.

So we are left with this 'negotiated deal' that nobody wants or a 'no deal' which will be worse.

It looks increasingly likely that the only way forward given that Government of the UK has broken down, is to hold another referendum and ask the people, now that they now the mess we are in; if this really is what they want.

God help us if a new referendum ends up in 'leave'




The UK should have formed a dream team at the start of this, a team of the best negotiators, top civil servants, a few billionaires and the best placed politicians. Then send them to Brussells to get the best deal for all. Alas may doesnt seem good at collaborating with a large group of people. This narrow siege mentality has hurt her al election time and now at brexit time. Now we have just 4 months to pull something out of the fire. IF she is overthrown then the tories may extend the brexit deadline and a general election or second referendum on final final deal may become inevitable.

Incidentally what concessions has the EU actually made? Were paying £39 billion to leave. Thats a pretty whopping concession on our part, what are they offering in return? 


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 11:48am
So then: this is the current situation...

Theresa May has completed her deal - she tells us that 'this is the Brexit people voted for'.

Jacob Rees-Mogg tells us: "This is not the Brexit people voted for', and calls for a vote of no confidence in May.

Who is telling the truth?

NEITHER OF THEM - THEY ARE BOTH LYING!

And why?

THERE WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT BREXIT WOULD MEAN IN THE REFERENDUM.
 VOTE

What people actually voted for was as follows:

"have cake and eat it"

"jam tomorrow"

"£350 million a week for the NHS".

In other words, people had a vague, unspecified notion that things would somehow be "Better" after Brexit.

It is pretty obvious by now - even to hard line Brexiters - that this is not the case - otherwise they'd back May. Problem is, they would not be able to negotiate a better deal.

These people would prefer us to leave the EU with 'no deal' - which would be even worse - but also, significantly, NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL EXIT. Before the referendum, the Brexit supporters insisted it would be a piece of pi** to get a deal done, and that we would be better off.

Another lie, obviously.

Let's have another referendum where the choice is clear...

Q1 Do you support May's Brexit deal? Yes or No? (if yes, this goes forward.)

Q2 If No, then do you prefer:
a to leave the EU with no deal, or
b to stay in the EU?

That would have the benefit of clarity, because at least people would know EXACTLY what deal they're voting on, not some cloud-cuckoo land future which never existed.

And lest someone say 'we've voted and it's the will of the people' - well, in that case, why do we have elections every 5 years? If the will of the people is FIXED FOREVER, let's just live with a Tory minority government backed by the DUP until Kingdom come!






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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 11:54am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

What's become obvious over the last few days to anyone capable of thought is that leaving the EU is going to cause considerable hardship to the UK for years to come, possibly decades.  There is no Brexit Bonus.

It looks like the deal that May has negotiated will not get through Parliament.  What Next?  The EU will not negotiate another deal with this Government. It's either this deal or no deal.

So what if May goes and we get a new PM; what then?   Will the EU consider a new deal with a new Government?  Maybe but there is little time to negotiate a new deal and the EU is unlikely to accept a harder deal (from their perspective) than the one already on the table.

So we are left with this 'negotiated deal' that nobody wants or a 'no deal' which will be worse.

It looks increasingly likely that the only way forward given that Government of the UK has broken down, is to hold another referendum and ask the people, now that they now the mess we are in; if this really is what they want.

God help us if a new referendum ends up in 'leave'




The UK should have formed a dream team at the start of this, a team of the best negotiators, top civil servants, a few billionaires and the best placed politicians. Then send them to Brussells to get the best deal for all. Alas may doesnt seem good at collaborating with a large group of people. This narrow siege mentality has hurt her al election time and now at brexit time. Now we have just 4 months to pull something out of the fire. IF she is overthrown then the tories may extend the brexit deadline and a general election or second referendum on final final deal may become inevitable.

Incidentally what concessions has the EU actually made? Were paying £39 billion to leave. Thats a pretty whopping concession on our part, what are they offering in return? 

Indeed, Roy... but as you know, when people withdraw from a contract, often there is a price to pay, or a penalty. This was agreed (if memory serves) by the dozy David Davis, who could only be bothered to meet Barnier either twice or three times in 9 months or so (I forget the details). Talk about taking it easy and slowly!


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 12:20pm


Its not looking good that's for sure, how do you unscramble 40 years of scrambled eggs?
it seems the main concern is tying ourselves into a bad deal that we can never ever get out of. Eternity is a long time. 4 months doesn't seem long enough to decide on eternity (Or at the least decades) The tories may think they if they throw in a brexiteer at this late stage, then he or she may hammer out a better last minute deal. I doubt it, but they may think they have nothing left to lose and throwing Teresa may under the bus, is a price worth paying to have a chance at a better deal for eternity. it would be interesting to see what all her critics would be able to do better. So easy to criticize from the sidelines, a lot harder to bang out a deal with 28 nations at once. 

The irony is a load of nations are unhappy with the EU and several of them are economically bankrupt. Merkel knows whats coming and is standing down in 2 years. It is with huge relief we didnt join the euro years ago. But this decision is different. We at least had control over our own monetary system and maybe could have danced on the fringes and vetoed what we didnt like. To actually transition brexit fully will take decades. 


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

What's become obvious over the last few days to anyone capable of thought is that leaving the EU is going to cause considerable hardship to the UK for years to come, possibly decades.  There is no Brexit Bonus.

It looks like the deal that May has negotiated will not get through Parliament.  What Next?  The EU will not negotiate another deal with this Government. It's either this deal or no deal.

So what if May goes and we get a new PM; what then?   Will the EU consider a new deal with a new Government?  Maybe but there is little time to negotiate a new deal and the EU is unlikely to accept a harder deal (from their perspective) than the one already on the table.

So we are left with this 'negotiated deal' that nobody wants or a 'no deal' which will be worse.

It looks increasingly likely that the only way forward given that Government of the UK has broken down, is to hold another referendum and ask the people, now that they now the mess we are in; if this really is what they want.

God help us if a new referendum ends up in 'leave'




The UK should have formed a dream team at the start of this, a team of the best negotiators, top civil servants, a few billionaires and the best placed politicians. Then send them to Brussells to get the best deal for all. Alas may doesnt seem good at collaborating with a large group of people. This narrow siege mentality has hurt her al election time and now at brexit time. Now we have just 4 months to pull something out of the fire. IF she is overthrown then the tories may extend the brexit deadline and a general election or second referendum on final final deal may become inevitable.

Incidentally what concessions has the EU actually made? Were paying £39 billion to leave. Thats a pretty whopping concession on our part, what are they offering in return? 

Indeed, Roy... but as you know, when people withdraw from a contract, often there is a price to pay, or a penalty. This was agreed (if memory serves) by the dozy David Davis, who could only be bothered to meet Barnier either twice or three times in 9 months or so (I forget the details). Talk about taking it easy and slowly!

What have the EU offered in return? What free trade deal? Why are politicians from other parties and remainers not directing some of their questions at the EU?


-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 12:35pm
Can someone please tell me why the return to a hard border in Ireland would lead to renewed violence? This appears to be the largest stumbling block which has prevented any form of sensible deal from being made. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

So then: this is the current situation...

Theresa May has completed her deal - she tells us that 'this is the Brexit people voted for'.

Jacob Rees-Mogg tells us: "This is not the Brexit people voted for', and calls for a vote of no confidence in May.

Who is telling the truth?

NEITHER OF THEM - THEY ARE BOTH LYING!

And why?

THERE WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT BREXIT WOULD MEAN IN THE REFERENDUM.
 VOTE

What people actually voted for was as follows:

"have cake and eat it"

"jam tomorrow"

"£350 million a week for the NHS".

In other words, people had a vague, unspecified notion that things would somehow be "Better" after Brexit.

It is pretty obvious by now - even to hard line Brexiters - that this is not the case - otherwise they'd back May. Problem is, they would not be able to negotiate a better deal.

These people would prefer us to leave the EU with 'no deal' - which would be even worse - but also, significantly, NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL EXIT. Before the referendum, the Brexit supporters insisted it would be a piece of pi** to get a deal done, and that we would be better off.

Another lie, obviously.

Let's have another referendum where the choice is clear...

Q1 Do you support May's Brexit deal? Yes or No? (if yes, this goes forward.)

Q2 If No, then do you prefer:
a to leave the EU with no deal, or
b to stay in the EU?

That would have the benefit of clarity, because at least people would know EXACTLY what deal they're voting on, not some cloud-cuckoo land future which never existed.

And lest someone say 'we've voted and it's the will of the people' - well, in that case, why do we have elections every 5 years? If the will of the people is FIXED FOREVER, let's just live with a Tory minority government backed by the DUP until Kingdom come!





Please Aber you must at least credit some of us Brexiteers will some modicum of common sense. At the time of Brexit I clearly understood what I was voting for :-

1. Control of our borders;
2. Control of our laws & lawmaking;
3. An end to vast annual payments into the unelected, unaudited swamp called Brussels/Strasbourg;
4. An ability to negotiate trade deals free from the hindrance of having to satisfy 27 other countries.

The above are what Brexit meant to me in 2016 and they are what Brexit means to me today. The fact that May has been hamstrung firstly be her over reliance on the DUP and secondly be the weakness of her appointments to the negotiating team does not in any shape or form change the arguement as far as I am concerned. 

The way forward for me would be for May to resign & make way for a new leader from the Brexit side of the Tory party. This leader should then appoint a new negotiating team under the chairmanship of a leading pro leave Industrialist. The brief would be to get a better deal by March 2019 or we leave with no deal saving us £39 billion. As Dominic Raab stated he would prefer us to leave with no deal, ride out the short term problems so that we do not hamstring ourselves for the foreseeable future. 





Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

What have the EU offered in return? What free trade deal? Why are politicians from other parties and remainers not directing some of their questions at the EU?
Why should they offer us anything?
If (using a Scarlets example) one of our players said he didn’t want to train, do community work, represent the club or play difficult games for us, but still wanted his paycheck and to play when it suited him, what would we say?

We are the ones leaving the club. We are not owed anything. We are at the forefront of very little in terms of technology. We export little food. People will just go elsewhere for what they need?


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 1:18pm
Didn't think we was getting a EU army, thought that was all lies , the pro EU lobby told us so

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: Ffidel Bennett
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:



Its not looking good that's for sure, how do you unscramble 40 years of scrambled eggs?
it seems the main concern is tying ourselves into a bad deal that we can never ever get out of. Eternity is a long time. 4 months doesn't seem long enough to decide on eternity (Or at the least decades) The tories may think they if they throw in a brexiteer at this late stage, then he or she may hammer out a better last minute deal. I doubt it, but they may think they have nothing left to lose and throwing Teresa may under the bus, is a price worth paying to have a chance at a better deal for eternity. it would be interesting to see what all her critics would be able to do better. So easy to criticize from the sidelines, a lot harder to bang out a deal with 28 nations at once. 

The irony is a load of nations are unhappy with the EU and several of them are economically bankrupt. Merkel knows whats coming and is standing down in 2 years. It is with huge relief we didnt join the euro years ago. But this decision is different. We at least had control over our own monetary system and maybe could have danced on the fringes and vetoed what we didnt like. To actually transition brexit fully will take decades. 

I'd bet that if they had their own referenda now, France, Spain, Italy and Greece would  happily leave along with others to Fexit, Sexit etc. The only country keen to join would be post-coup, basket case Ukraine, which wants allies in its attacks on Donetsk and Lugansk which want to leave Ukraine and join Russia, as the vast majority of their populations are ethnic Russians discriminated against by the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can someone please tell me why the return to a hard border in Ireland would lead to renewed violence? This appears to be the largest stumbling block which has prevented any form of sensible deal from being made. 
Reintroducing a hard border would re-open a wound that could destabilise the peace process.  It's not inevitable but a huge gamble and one that nobody is really prepared to take.

But a hard border isn't the only threat posed by Brexit to the NI peace process.  Possibly a  bigger issue is the risk of removal of rights currently guaranteed by the EU court of justice which protect Catholic communities in NI. The British Government has refused to sign an agreement which would prevent it from changing those rights after Brexit.




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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can someone please tell me why the return to a hard border in Ireland would lead to renewed violence? This appears to be the largest stumbling block which has prevented any form of sensible deal from being made. 
Reintroducing a hard border would re-open a wound that could destabilise the peace process.  It's not inevitable but a huge gamble and one that nobody is really prepared to take.

But a hard border isn't the only threat posed by Brexit to the NI peace process.  Possibly a  bigger issue is the risk of removal of rights currently guaranteed by the EU court of justice which protect Catholic communities in NI. The British Government has refused to sign an agreement which would prevent it from changing those rights after Brexit.



Thanks for that Rob. No doubt the Uk government, indebted as they are to the DUP, would find it difficult to get through Parliament unless, of course, right minded Labour MP's switch and vote for something which, in all conscience, they should support. Why shouldn't catholic communities enjoy the same rights & expectations in Northern Ireland as they do in Wales, Scotland & England?


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

What's become obvious over the last few days to anyone capable of thought is that leaving the EU is going to cause considerable hardship to the UK for years to come, possibly decades.  There is no Brexit Bonus.

It looks like the deal that May has negotiated will not get through Parliament.  What Next?  The EU will not negotiate another deal with this Government. It's either this deal or no deal.

So what if May goes and we get a new PM; what then?   Will the EU consider a new deal with a new Government?  Maybe but there is little time to negotiate a new deal and the EU is unlikely to accept a harder deal (from their perspective) than the one already on the table.

So we are left with this 'negotiated deal' that nobody wants or a 'no deal' which will be worse.

It looks increasingly likely that the only way forward given that Government of the UK has broken down, is to hold another referendum and ask the people, now that they now the mess we are in; if this really is what they want.

God help us if a new referendum ends up in 'leave'




The UK should have formed a dream team at the start of this, a team of the best negotiators, top civil servants, a few billionaires and the best placed politicians. Then send them to Brussells to get the best deal for all. Alas may doesnt seem good at collaborating with a large group of people. This narrow siege mentality has hurt her al election time and now at brexit time. Now we have just 4 months to pull something out of the fire. IF she is overthrown then the tories may extend the brexit deadline and a general election or second referendum on final final deal may become inevitable.

Incidentally what concessions has the EU actually made? Were paying £39 billion to leave. Thats a pretty whopping concession on our part, what are they offering in return? 

Indeed, Roy... but as you know, when people withdraw from a contract, often there is a price to pay, or a penalty. This was agreed (if memory serves) by the dozy David Davis, who could only be bothered to meet Barnier either twice or three times in 9 months or so (I forget the details). Talk about taking it easy and slowly!

What have the EU offered in return? What free trade deal? Why are politicians from other parties and remainers not directing some of their questions at the EU?

Re Dream team - This was always going to be the problem, and one of the many lies told to us by the Brexiteers. The truth of the matter is that we DON"T have anyone in the UK who has the necessary experience to negotiate/arrange such arrangements. These sort of arrangements have been done FOR us since we've been in the EU. 

Please don't say that someone should have found someone, clearly we don't have any one or they would have been enlisted. David Davis was one of those shouting loudest, and he made it abundantly clear that he could not negotiate a deal, and so walked away. 

Seems like when the going gets tough, some of those who think that they are tough simply walk away !



Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 3:04pm
From what the BBC and Sky are currently reporting, it's looking probable that Sir Graham Brady has that magical number of 48 letters to trigger the vote of no confidence, I'd say May's days are now numbered.

This is all such a mess!


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:

From what the BBC and Sky are currently reporting, it's looking probable that Sir Graham Brady has that magical number of 48 letters to trigger the vote of no confidence, I'd say May's days are now numbered.

This is all such a mess!

From what I understand it is a tricky one to call. 

If they go for a vote of no confidence and win, then there will be an election for a new Tory leader.

However, if they go for a vote of no confidence and don't win, then they can't challenge May for another year. 

The maths suggest that a vote of no confidence would not be carried, so May therefore could not be challenged for 12 months.



Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 4:17pm
Can’t we sort this out the Sri Lankan way?


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 5:56pm
We would need some of the 'Old School' Politicians back to make it worthwhile, or entertaining at least. This lot are too weedy for a good old fashioned fist fight. Smile

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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 16 November 2018 at 6:37pm
sadly there were a tonnoe of lies and exaggeration on both sides

Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror

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  • https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/author/matthew-ellery/" rel="nofollow - Programmes Officer at The Housing & Finance Institute

Recently, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, blamed the Brexit vote on 40 years of lies and the lies of 'Leave' campaigners. Juncker is correct in one sense, there were many lies during the EU Referendum campaign, however these lies were from the 'Remain' side. The so-called lies from Leavers are a figment of the federalist's imagination.

The UK gives the EU a gross contribution of £350 million a week. This is not a lie, and it is an amount which could be spent on the NHS if the UK Government so wished. These are usually touted as lies, but this stems from 'Remain' campaigners being unable to tell the difference between the words 'gross' and 'net' as well as the difference between the words 'could' and 'will'.

In reality the lies came from the 'Remain' campaign.

European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'. As I am sitting here writing this article, and as you are currently reading this, it is safe to say western political civilisation has not ended. Therefore, we must conclude this was a 'Remain' lie.

David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie.

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George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented. To date, no changes to the planned tax rates or public spending have been implemented. So, another lie, and thankfully after his sacking Osborne is no longer in a position create his 'punishment budget'.

Despite Anna Soubry's claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is "quietly optimistic" about Brexit. Lie number four.

3 million people in the UK will lose their jobs was the fictitious figure banded about. However, in July the claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600, despite an expected rise of 9,500. Another lie.

"A dangerous fantasy" is how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage's claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker has proposed an EU Army. I'm looking forward to Nick Clegg's next apology video like the one he made after his last whopper.

We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves, especially in the car industry. There is no sign of this, and UK car manufacturing achieving its 12th successive month of growth in July, with production passing one million units in seven months for the first time in 12 years. Lie number 7.

David Cameron said he wouldn't resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote. Enough said.

The former Prime Minister also tried to claim the UK could manage its immigration policy while inside the EU. Why are 'Remain' campaigners insisting we start to control immigration in any Brexit deal then? Because we cannot control EU immigration now, proving Cameron was lying.

Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Our new Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place. Lie number 10.

This is 10 of many lies spouted by the 'Remain' campaign during the EU referendum. It is about time us Brexiteers challenged this ridiculous narrative of leave lies and remain truths. We voted 'Leave' for control over the laws of this country, and the patronising suggestion we are gullible idiots is quite frankly ridiculous. Remain campaigners should look in the mirror if they want to find a liar. The sooner we  http://getbritainout.org/" rel="nofollow - Get Britain Out  of the EU, the better"



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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)



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