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Scarlets-Ospreys Plan - Some facts

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Topic: Scarlets-Ospreys Plan - Some facts
Posted By: NobbySosban
Subject: Scarlets-Ospreys Plan - Some facts
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 7:52am
Too much hysteria on the subject.



Replies:
Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:01am
If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.

-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: Cwmgwuan
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:02am
Thank you for clearing this up. Its a stressful time for Welsh rugby and i hope common sense prevails


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:04am
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.


Completely correct and loving your passion Mike.

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: multinational
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:09am
So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.


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History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.


Posted By: Bryn@man
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:11am
Struggling to see how a 'merger' is any better than letting nature take its course with the Ospreys. Diluting or losing our identity is simply unacceptable.


Posted By: gnasher1975
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:11am
Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:

So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.

I can't see us doing that Nigel short and co are no mugs and as you say the ospreys have no bargaining chips.


Posted By: Mugwuffin
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:18am
I think facts are in short supply at this stage, but what you posted is probably pretty accurate, IMO.

What I can’t understand is why we’d be willing to “merge”. The rumours are that the Ospreys benefactors are willing to put money into this new hybrid entity. If they’re bringing money to the table they will want influence and concessions from us. The question is, why would they put money into this proposed new team but not use it to keep what they’ve already built going?

Any concessions we make for them in terms of branding will be extremely tough to stomach for most Scarlets fans. No concessions we make will ever be enough for most Ospreys fans. This has all the makings of a disaster. Two fan bases will be alienated, crowds will likely be smaller than either team pulls in currently, money will be wasted in trying (in vain) to placate the two sets of fans, and in a few short years the WRU will be scratching its head wondering why the West and South-West of Wales doesn’t produce as many talented players as it did when there were two teams covering those areas instead of one.

We need to be very noisy in opposition to this. Perhaps a joint petition with Ospreys fans against this merger, with a threat to boycott any hybrid team, is the way to go. If we make it clear this decision will be bad for business they will surely have to listen.


Posted By: Kentexile
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:20am
A N Wales region will need funding. Going down that route reminds me of the number of failed attempts to establish professional rugby league in S Wales based on population and general interest which have been insufficient to sustain the experiment beyond a couple of seasons. Whilst there aren’t many professional sports teams of any description in N Wales the real competition is with the English football teams just across the border. Whilst the Ospreys are in financial difficulties they are a recognised brand in the rugby heartland who have generated decent attendance when successful (same as any team really ) and if there is funding to do something in N Wales then it may be better to preserve the Ospreys rather than investing in a potential white elephant and possibly causing Irreparable damage to the Scarlets brand and alienating rugby supporters in Wales second largest city


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:29am
Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:


So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.



The O’s have contracted players as a chip.

They liquidate themselves and all contracts are null and void and it’s open season for all to pile in for those signatures.

That won’t end well for the WRU or Wales.


Posted By: multinational
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:


So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.



The O’s have contracted players as a chip.

They liquidate themselves and all contracts are null and void and it’s open season for all to pile in for those signatures.

That won’t end well for the WRU or Wales.
 
So we negotiate based on signing a few of their players?
 
No thanks. As great as they are, I'd rather stick with what we have and trust our benefactors and pathway to develop via another route


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History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:46am
Thanks for the info Nobby.  Also Mike, great post.

I'm pretty confident that our board will steer us through what is set to be a watershed moment in Welsh rugby, and they will do so with the full understanding of what it means to be Scarlet. 


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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: Haruki
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:49am
I am a North Wales Scarlets fan so mixed emotions on the whole scenario. I have long thought the North deserves full region status and that the interest is there based on RGC's Premiership attendances and sold out U20 games. It will also be good for welsh Rugby to have a better standard of player production in the North.
ON the flip side as a Scarlets fan a full blown Merger with O's is unpalatable. If the O's are the ones broke and in trouble then if we just swallow them up and take their best players and their feeder clubs etc under the Scarlets brand, play majority of games at Parc y Scarlets and chuck a token couple of games to Swansea then that would be acceptable but no a full merger to form a new club with a new name and branding etc


Posted By: thommo
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:50am
This is a case of damage limitation for the WRU, in a perverse way we could hugely benefit, but only if we keep our identity and stadium. If we are rebranded the western scarlets i for one could live with that. If we have significant financial reward for the merger then that may enable us to compete with the likes of saracens and leinster.
Wonder what moar makes of all the permetstions.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 8:50am
Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:


So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.



The O’s have contracted players as a chip.

They liquidate themselves and all contracts are null and void and it’s open season for all to pile in for those signatures.

That won’t end well for the WRU or Wales.
 
So we negotiate based on signing a few of their players?
 
No thanks. As great as they are, I'd rather stick with what we have and trust our benefactors and pathway to develop via another route
It's not just a few of their players, the bargaining chip is the region itself, all it's people, current and future players.  The geographical region has a track record of developing exceptional players who have gone on to be Wales and British Lions stars.  If the Scarlets take over this player pathway then we will be unbeatable in my opinion........

........But not at the expense of our own brand, which would be suicidal.


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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: Rich (Bris)
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:00am
Ospreys fans won't come to watch a merged team at PYS anyway, so why (if this the plan) destroy 2 identities and mess up what Scarlets have created over all the years???


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Ospreys fans won't come to watch a merged team at PYS anyway, so why (if this the plan) destroy 2 identities and mess up what Scarlets have created over all the years???


This.... I have a fair few Ospreys fans who are incredibly upset about the news & have al stated that they will under no circumstances support/attend a merged regions matches.


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:05am
If it's the liberty running costs tgatp hurting them. Surely they've known this for a while and playing at the brewery field, st Helens or gnoll would been better
So because of os bad running it's now affecting us. Hell no


Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:07am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

THIS IS IMPORTANT:
The Ospreys are bust. They tabled a merger plan with Scarlets at PRB in Jan, but then decided to go alone.

They then quickly drafted a plan to merge with Cardiff Blues, but this failed when Blues made it known that the Os were insolvent.

PRB - who are made up of WRU + the 4 Regions - has a responsibility to protect pro rugby in Wales, and is now (at the Os’ instigation) evaluating the potential of a ‘merger’ between Scarlets & Ospreys.

There are so many details to be considered that it will take time, and there has been no opportunity for a communication plan as things are moving so fast. Players, staff and, of course, supporters are going to be affected by this, but patience & understanding are needed.

In parallel, the ‘backstop’ of a pro region at RGC is being enacted - a 4th Region is required for contractual reasons, and this is the probably the most viable option.

However, this is clearly emotive, and there is a lot of frustration & anger being directed at the Union - it’s important to remember that the WRU & PRB are trying to mitigate against one club’s bankruptcy, and to simply let it go to the wall would be more chaotic & damaging than to try to manage the situation with a technical merger.

Scarlets, as a successful part of PRB, are party to trying to make this work. There’s a long way to go, many details to be addressed, but now the Ospreys board has finally been honest with itself & its PRB partners, a sustainable solution may be possible.

Please bear this in mind in your social media speculations.


Thanks for this NobbyScarlet

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In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"        Roger going life is good.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.


Completely correct and loving your passion Mike.

Agree 100%. Quite a few of us bought shares back when there was a risk of bankruptcy and never expected - or got - a penny back. That was done to ensure that Llanelli/Scarlets survived, not some amorphous entity. The 'Ospreys' is already an invention - a merger of Swansea and Neath - which can't mean that much to anyone, at least not from a historical perspective.

If it works out that we get a few of their better players (AWJ would be more than welcome), and that the others form the basis of a new region in the North, then OK - so long as the Scarlets name/brand remains. It should be more of a takeover, not a merger, IMO.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

 Thanks for this NobbyScarlet

Great to hear from you, Lofty. Thumbs Up


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Mugwuffin Mugwuffin wrote:

I think facts are in short supply at this stage, but what you posted is probably pretty accurate, IMO.

What I can’t understand is why we’d be willing to “merge”. The rumours are that the Ospreys benefactors are willing to put money into this new hybrid entity. If they’re bringing money to the table they will want influence and concessions from us. The question is, why would they put money into this proposed new team but not use it to keep what they’ve already built going?

Any concessions we make for them in terms of branding will be extremely tough to stomach for most Scarlets fans. No concessions we make will ever be enough for most Ospreys fans. This has all the makings of a disaster. Two fan bases will be alienated, crowds will likely be smaller than either team pulls in currently, money will be wasted in trying (in vain) to placate the two sets of fans, and in a few short years the WRU will be scratching its head wondering why the West and South-West of Wales doesn’t produce as many talented players as it did when there were two teams covering those areas instead of one.

We need to be very noisy in opposition to this. Perhaps a joint petition with Ospreys fans against this merger, with a threat to boycott any hybrid team, is the way to go. If we make it clear this decision will be bad for business they will surely have to listen.


That would basically be a petition to ask Ospreys supporters to stop having any kind of team to support.


Posted By: gwentred
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:30am
Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.



Posted By: thommo
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:44am
Originally posted by gwentred gwentred wrote:

Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.

Dont you realise the significance the name scarlets has with the fans. To be honest you haven't a clue. Scarlets is who we are,what we are and without that then they lost the connection. If you so no harm in rebranding the region without the scarlets, then i give up.


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:45am
Originally posted by thommo thommo wrote:

Originally posted by gwentred gwentred wrote:

Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.

Dont you realise the significance the name scarlets has with the fans. To be honest you haven't a clue. Scarlets is who we are,what we are and without that then they lost the connection. If you so no harm in rebranding the region without the scarlets, then i give up.

ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap

We didn't fight to stand alone to allow the board to rip it away from us now.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: turkishrebel
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:47am
It's what we have fought for in the past. We are the Scarlets not some hybrid rubbish

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Once a Scarlet, always a Scarlet!


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:47am
All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.



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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: sgsmorgan
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.


Bang on the money mike..... after all the cr@p we've taken over the years. No way.

Lets help wherever we can but there are limits.....


Posted By: pillory
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:25am
So, are we talking about a possible back-office merger that would allow both distinct brands to continue operating?

Here's a hypothetical/hopeful, based on no inside knowledge:
Ospreys are allowed to enter administration or will be liquidated, wiping out their debts. They are debt. But losing the Ospreys and its substantial following would be disastrous, and merging Scarlets and Ospreys is unthinkable.
An Ospreys NewCo/phoenix would be unable to support itself alone, would need to be substantially different and would require support of another entity.
Scarlets Rugby or, preferably, a new JV operating company would take on joint functions like marketing for both Scarlets and Ospreys, thereby saving on the many non-paying salaries from unfortunate Ospreys staff.
This would be a new entity the WRU approves to deliver rugby in what they will call the "West". Most of us know the west starts at Loughor, but there we are.
Let's call it "West Wales Rugby" would be a joint operating company for both sides, but both Scarlets and Ospreys would continue to exist. WWR would be a vehicle providing WRU with a degree of control over this greater region - you would see more player movements/sharing a la Aled/Scott. You would also see the union try to template this solution in the east, through the creation of Eastern Regional Rugby ("ERR"... errrrrr), failitating "closer working relationships" between Blues and Dragons.
It would happen in return for a new and improved financial settlement and will be presented as a positive outcome.
But both hold the potential for ultimate future consolidation of West and East super-regions.
God knows where Ospreys Phoenix play if Liberty Stadium rent is amongst the biggest of its financial burdens.

Just trying to find some hope and guess what is going on.


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.

Forming PRB has forced the 5 parties to be open and honest with themselves and each other, and to genuinely work together - for some, it's been harder than others (one is still not there).

But the Ospreys board have finally faced up to their situation, and it's now down to PRB (inc WRU) to try and find a short term fix that enables a sustainable long term future for pro rugby in Wales. This situation, and the timing of it breaking, are totally down to the Ospreys management. Previously, they'd kept their hand hidden - now they've had to show it. PRB has forced all the problems to the surface, and now they're being addressed, by the PRB within WRU.

Having already bought and stabilised (financially) the Dragons, there are no funds to purchase a debt-ridden club, so other solutions must be explored, hence the Os tabling merger plans with their nearest neighbours. If this is feasible (and there's no indication yet whether it is - the Os' accounts won't be filed until 31/3, and they may yet delay), it will happen. Our own board and chair are incredibly diligent visionaries - if they believe they can make this work, they will - but there'll be no hubris in their decision-making, something that has driven poor business decisions in the game for decades.

The RGC option is possible because an 8-figure sum is apparently available to make it happen, and it's necessary because we are contractually obliged to enter 4 teams into domestic & European competitions. The benefits between running 3 & 4 clubs are marginal, but 4 seems to be the preferred option, so the RGC 'backstop' is required and, it is hoped, will develop the game in a region long overlooked. Personally, I think the challenges will be massive, but we're at a point where it may as well be tried.

I understand that there is a lot of raw emotion around this on both sides of the Loughor, and in the wider game, but that needs to be tempered with the realisation that this needs to happen to safeguard all our futures, and that good people - including those within the Ospreys who still have the passion and wherewithal to make a difference, and certainly within the WRU - are trying to get good, lasting outcomes from this situation.


Posted By: pillory
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:36am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

The RGC option is possible because an 8-figure sum is apparently available to make it happen

Is there any public record of this offer? I presume this is the £12,000,000 Welsh Government offer I saw referenced on Scarlet Fever last night? It sounds like a Ken Skates initiative... ?

I support exploring public subsidy to the WRU (just look at Ireland).
And I support more rugby in north Wales for cultural reasons (but in the same way I support Welsh independence - it's idealism).

The concern, however, is that taxpayer money is incentivising the WRU to destroy two cultures in the south.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:41am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

THIS IS IMPORTANT:
The Ospreys are bust. They tabled a merger plan with Scarlets at PRB in Jan, but then decided to go alone.

They then quickly drafted a plan to merge with Cardiff Blues, but this failed when Blues made it known that the Os were insolvent.

PRB - who are made up of WRU + the 4 Regions - has a responsibility to protect pro rugby in Wales, and is now (at the Os’ instigation) evaluating the potential of a ‘merger’ between Scarlets & Ospreys.

There are so many details to be considered that it will take time, and there has been no opportunity for a communication plan as things are moving so fast. Players, staff and, of course, supporters are going to be affected by this, but patience & understanding are needed.

In parallel, the ‘backstop’ of a pro region at RGC is being enacted - a 4th Region is required for contractual reasons, and this is the probably the most viable option.

However, this is clearly emotive, and there is a lot of frustration & anger being directed at the Union - it’s important to remember that the WRU & PRB are trying to mitigate against one club’s bankruptcy, and to simply let it go to the wall would be more chaotic & damaging than to try to manage the situation with a technical merger.

Scarlets, as a successful part of PRB, are party to trying to make this work. There’s a long way to go, many details to be addressed, but now the Ospreys board has finally been honest with itself & its PRB partners, a sustainable solution may be possible.

Please bear this in mind in your social media speculations.

How on earth did the ospreys make such a mess of their finances is one question. If they go bankrupt which seems inevitable according to the stories were hearing. What options do they have? Cant they re-emerge after a firesale, re-structuring their debts, perhaps a WRU and extended bank loan , perhaps some kind of help from the council / welsh assembly even...letting a lot of players go? Neath went bust a few times and re-emerged, though clearly the figures involved here will be much bigger. Yes for a few years theyd be a far a weaker region but at least they will still exist and one day day may rebuild. The sheer number of strong clubs in their region is massive. Allied to their academy and age group rugby, talents of the future would eventually re-emerge


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Ospreys fans won't come to watch a merged team at PYS anyway, so why (if this the plan) destroy 2 identities and mess up what Scarlets have created over all the years???

It sounds to me that unless we're able to offer some kind of rescue plan for the O's, then they won't have any regional rugby to watch anyway.


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:43am
So are the wru and regions suggesting their scarlet / osprey merger proposal is permanent or short term 

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:44am
Imagine not being able to sing Yma O Hyd anymore.


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.


The Ospreys have no valuable assets, no proper home, no stadia. At least the Dragons have their own facilities and stadia, which has been heavily invested in over the past few years.


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:50am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

How on earth did the ospreys make such a mess of their finances is one question. If they go bankrupt which seems inevitable according to the stories were hearing. What options do they have? Cant they re-emerge after a firesale, re-structuring their debts, perhaps a WRU and extended bank loan , perhaps some kind of help from the council / welsh assembly even...letting a lot of players go? Neath went bust a few times and re-emerged, though clearly the figures involved here will be much bigger. Yes for a few years theyd be a far a weaker region but at least they will still exist and one day day may rebuild. The sheer number of strong clubs in their region is massive. Allied to their academy and age group rugby, talents of the future would eventually re-emerge

I believe all feasible options are being considered - there's still a lot of hard work to be done.


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.


The Ospreys have no valuable assets, no proper home, no stadia. At least the Dragons have their own facilities and stadia, which has been heavily invested in over the past few years.
 
They own the brewery field don't they?
 
plus they have a squad including some top players and a proven record of developing quality players plus some feeder clubs with a great history
 
If the wry want to chuck all that away for a punt in north wales that seems an odd move to me tbh


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:53am
Judgement day will be interesting this year


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:59am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.


The Ospreys have no valuable assets, no proper home, no stadia. At least the Dragons have their own facilities and stadia, which has been heavily invested in over the past few years.
 
They own the brewery field don't they?
 
plus they have a squad including some top players and a proven record of developing quality players plus some feeder clubs with a great history
 
If the wry want to chuck all that away for a punt in north wales that seems an odd move to me tbh

I'm not sure to be honest. What it would be worth though if they did own the brewery field would be another interesting question for sure.

Any players currently on national dual contracts would probably be ok, and could be swallowed up by the remaining 2 regions (or 3 if North Wales becomes a region). It's the remaining player base, and staff that currently make up the Ospreys region that I fear for more than anything.


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:59am
Originally posted by shocker shocker wrote:

Judgement day will be interesting this year
 
fair play to the wru have killed off the biggest game in welsh domestic rugbyAngryAngry


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:00am
Originally posted by shocker shocker wrote:

Judgement day will be interesting this year

Looks like we're having one today Shocked


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:03am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by shocker shocker wrote:

Judgement day will be interesting this year
 
fair play to the wru have killed off the biggest game in welsh domestic rugbyAngryAngry

yet another fringe benefit of this disaster....60,000+ judgement day is down the pan tooCry


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:04am
Know it wouldn't happen but nice to see the scarlet and os players supporting this situation and making themselves unavailable for Saturday's game v Scotland and every game til this is resolved
Wru can pick a team from blues, dragons and the rgc


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:06am
Originally posted by shocker shocker wrote:

Know it wouldn't happen but nice to see the scarlet and os players supporting this situation and making themselves unavailable for Saturday's game v Scotland and every game til this is resolved
Wru can pick a team from blues, dragons and the rgc

now that would be hardball

got to empathise with players and their families here. Especially those Ospreys players who are putting their bodies on the line in scotland this weekend. Their heads must be spinning.Confused


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: caucaunibuca
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:07am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Imagine not being able to sing Yma O Hyd anymore.
This


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"Just grab the ball and fly, think you can fly" - Rupeni Caucaunibuca (advising Joe Rokocoko before his first game for the Auckland Blues)


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:07am
It's not just the players, it's all the jobs behind the scenes. From players to tea ladies


Posted By: Mugwuffin
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:09am
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by Mugwuffin Mugwuffin wrote:

I think facts are in short supply at this stage, but what you posted is probably pretty accurate, IMO.

What I can’t understand is why we’d be willing to “merge”. The rumours are that the Ospreys benefactors are willing to put money into this new hybrid entity. If they’re bringing money to the table they will want influence and concessions from us. The question is, why would they put money into this proposed new team but not use it to keep what they’ve already built going?

Any concessions we make for them in terms of branding will be extremely tough to stomach for most Scarlets fans. No concessions we make will ever be enough for most Ospreys fans. This has all the makings of a disaster. Two fan bases will be alienated, crowds will likely be smaller than either team pulls in currently, money will be wasted in trying (in vain) to placate the two sets of fans, and in a few short years the WRU will be scratching its head wondering why the West and South-West of Wales doesn’t produce as many talented players as it did when there were two teams covering those areas instead of one.

We need to be very noisy in opposition to this. Perhaps a joint petition with Ospreys fans against this merger, with a threat to boycott any hybrid team, is the way to go. If we make it clear this decision will be bad for business they will surely have to listen.


That would basically be a petition to ask Ospreys supporters to stop having any kind of team to support.

Less than 10 days ago the Ospreys came out to refute the rumours of their demise and stated they were going nowhere. Things have changed since then. They need to change back.


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:13am
I guess the other issue is that a lot of players for both regions won't have signed thier new deals yet due to the funding not being known for next season...


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:14am
Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by multinational multinational wrote:


So the underlying facts are:
 
If we do nothing, the ospreys go to the wall regardless.
The Blues have already said they won't compromise their position - so that is not an option.
 
So essentially the Ospreys have no bargaining chips at all.
 
If we compromise any part of our identity for this deal we are absolutely mental - and I can tell you now it will drive thousands of Scarlet fans away from the game.



The O’s have contracted players as a chip.

They liquidate themselves and all contracts are null and void and it’s open season for all to pile in for those signatures.

That won’t end well for the WRU or Wales.

 
So we negotiate based on signing a few of their players?
 
No thanks. As great as they are, I'd rather stick with what we have and trust our benefactors and pathway to develop via another route


I was suggesting that as the reasoning why the WRU can’t let the O’s fold. There would most likely be a player exodus. Whatever we think of their players they are supplying a fair clutch of Team Wales squad right now...an exodus in World Cup year would be, erm, an issue.


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:14am
We don't want them, they don't want us.


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:25am
If the WRU are legally obliged to supply 4 teams, why don't they make an offer to London Welsh, who are looking increasingly less likely to play in a ringfenced English Premiership any time soon.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:28am
Originally posted by joni_bach joni_bach wrote:

If the WRU are legally obliged to supply 4 teams, why don't they make an offer to London Welsh, who are looking increasingly less likely to play in a ringfenced English Premiership any time soon.

or combine them with north wales, now that would be bizarre


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:29am
maybe the best idea which hasnt yet been mooted is to combine the ospreys with north wales? northern ospreys? sounds mad but it ticks a few boxes and leaves us well alone

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:40am
Or an RGC-Dragons development region.
That plays at Sardis Road.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 11:42am
Originally posted by joni_bach joni_bach wrote:

Or an RGC-Dragons development region.
That plays at Sardis Road.
I dont know whether to laugh or cry at that oneLOLCry


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: gnasher1975
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:04pm
there seems to be an awful lot of speculation about who will go where surely if we are digging them out of the s%^t we would have 1st refusal on a lot of their players, otherwise why are we getting involved ?


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

I understand that there is a lot of raw emotion around this on both sides of the Loughor, and in the wider game, but that needs to be tempered with the realisation that this needs to happen to safeguard all our futures, and that good people - including those within the Ospreys who still have the passion and wherewithal to make a difference, and certainly within the WRU - are trying to get good, lasting outcomes from this situation.
 
How does it need to happen to safeguard all our futures when two weeks ago we were waving the Ospreys off to be folded into the Blues? Now, in space of days, this has to happen?
 
The people involved in the Ospreys have mismanaged them atrociously. Rather than do the honourable thing and close it down or stump up more of their own money, they want to be 'involved' in a new team with us? I suspect these men are simply used to the trappings and status of being 'players' in Wales due to their association with the nation's rugby heroes and don't want to lose that. They're not prepared to put money into their own team anymore and their mismanagement is about to end pro rugby in Swansea, so I don't think their involvement is exactly necessary.
 
It all comes down to the name and the brand anyway, so if we have them on our Board and make some cosmetic nods to their contribution, that's fine... but it's Scarlets, or West Wales Scarlets.


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> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:29pm
the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.


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> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.
 
you can still chant it, no doubt the team will be in scarlet you can stll sing sosban fach etc
 
the blues  fans still shout for Cardiff
 
I'd rather have the extra players and the better chance of trophys  and just lose the name tbh
 
In the grand scheme of things we are not being asked to sacrifice a lot compared to others


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the blues  fans still shout for Cardiff


That's because they are called the Cardiff Blues.


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

there seems to be an awful lot of speculation about who will go where surely if we are digging them out of the s%^t we would have 1st refusal on a lot of their players, otherwise why are we getting involved ?

Are we digging them out of the s**t though, or are we trying to help them salvage what is left before they go bankrupt? I suspect it is the later, but until there are any official statements, who knows?


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: N14
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.
 
you can still chant it, no doubt the team will be in scarlet you can stll sing sosban fach etc
 
the blues  fans still shout for Cardiff
 
I'd rather have the extra players and the better chance of trophys  and just lose the name tbh
 
In the grand scheme of things we are not being asked to sacrifice a lot compared to others

I honestly give up if this is people's mindset...


Posted By: sgsmorgan
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.


This...big time


Posted By: Haruki
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:45pm
I think it is important to remember that what has happened at the O's could easily happen to us in 5 or 10 years time. They had relative success on the pitch buoyed by half decent crowds and generous benefactors. They tried to invest to kick on from that position and failed to do so, crowds dropped, benefactors stopped putting their hands in their pockets and the finances of the regions plummeted.

I would guess that the WRU believe that if you strip out our benefactors then we look very similar to them financially and therefore neither regions is stand alone financially viable.  Of course the bit of the whole situation that stinks is how they view the dragons as financially viable


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Haruki Haruki wrote:

I think it is important to remember that what has happened at the O's could easily happen to us in 5 or 10 years time. They had relative success on the pitch buoyed by half decent crowds and generous benefactors. They tried to invest to kick on from that position and failed to do so, crowds dropped, benefactors stopped putting their hands in their pockets and the finances of the regions plummeted.

I would guess that the WRU believe that if you strip out our benefactors then we look very similar to them financially and therefore neither regions is stand alone financially viable.  Of course the bit of the whole situation that stinks is how they view the dragons as financially viable


Thanked.

Whatever I think of the merger, we have debts and we have benefactors.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:50pm
Merging the 2 strongest regions is not in the best interests of welsh rugby, yet keeping the weakest and starting a whole new one from scratch is just bizarre... which makes me wonder what this is really about? and what vested interests are at work? it weakens regional rugby but tightens the grip of the wru

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:56pm
WRPA statement:

Quote Welsh Rugby Players Association expresses deep concern over player livelihoods
Welsh Rugby Players Association expresses deep concern over player livelihoods - calls on WRU and Regions to protect Welsh players

- On the back of intense speculation about the future structure of professional rugby in Wales, the Welsh Rugby Players Association today expressed deep concern for the livelihoods of players in Wales and their families, and called for the Professional Rugby Board (PRB) to secure players’ futures.

Andries Pretorius, CEO of the WRPA, which represents the collective voice of professional players in Wales, said:

“This is an incredibly challenging time for players, who clearly are vital to the success and future of Welsh Rugby.

“We are told the game is not sustainable in its current form in Wales and major changes are needed. In the face of that uncertainty over the course of this season, players have responded incredibly constructively, giving their all for their Regions and our Country, and recognising the need to play their part in a healthy future for our sport.

“But with such a seismic change seemingly now proposed for our professional game we are deeply concerned about the impact it will have on the livelihoods of players and their families.

“Fans will be reeling right now about the future and two Regions merging will see a great many talented players need to uproot themselves and their families to leave South and West Wales. We call on the PRB to recognise their duty of care and join us in supporting players, while ensuring none are forced out of the game altogether.

“It would also be terrible for players, fans and our sport to lose Welsh talent to clubs in England or France who are offering the security players need in their short playing careers.

“We can only hope that Project Reset will enhance our game in Wales, but it has thrown up far more questions than it has answered so far and could the timing of all this be any worse? I’ve had countless players reach out for support and raising justifiable concerns. This is all taking a massive toll on our boys and they need some real certainty and quickly.

Players across the four are concerned that there has been no consultation in relation to the proposed merger and the establishment of a Northern Region, and therefor a lack of recognition of them being a key stakeholder in the future success of Rugby in Wales. Currently there is no player voice on the RPB despite repeated request for such representation. There is a dire need for urgent and meaningful consultation with the player group as currently players are faced with a lack of clarity, a void of information and in many cases mis information. This situation can not continue.

Ken Owens, Chairman of the WRPA said:

“As the chairman of the WRPA I am deeply concerned about the situation that the player across the four regions face. I recognise that this is the most challenging situation that I or arguably any player has faced during our rugby careers. I appeal to all stakeholders to have the concerns and welfare needs of all those that stand to be affected by the proposed changes at the forefront of their minds.

“It’s also clear players need to be represented on the PRB because they can and must be part of the solution. Without them there is no Welsh Rugby.”

In support of the comments from the Chairman Ken Owens, players from the regions also expressed their concern about the huge impact that the proposed changes will have upon the lives of the fantastic team of people who provide the support that essential to allow the players to take the field, from immediate team support across to the commercial and community teams who work tirelessly to support and promote regional Rugby.

Players also recognise the network of ever loyal fans and diverse groups, organisations and charities that are currently engaged with the Regional Rugby throughout the season, and they want to ensure that their voices are heard, opinions listened to and valued. Of particular concern are those who would directly be affected by any proposed merger of the Ospreys and Scarlets.


Posted By: gaffer
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 12:57pm
No compromise on identity. Help as many players from the Ospreys squad as we can, the rest can be shared around or pick up contracts out of Wales (AWJ, Tips, North, Watkin probably). We can't carry their admin/coaching staff as well. I've no idea why we should give any ground when the Ospreys have, to all intents, folded.


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What's going on?


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by Haruki Haruki wrote:

I think it is important to remember that what has happened at the O's could easily happen to us in 5 or 10 years time. They had relative success on the pitch buoyed by half decent crowds and generous benefactors. They tried to invest to kick on from that position and failed to do so, crowds dropped, benefactors stopped putting their hands in their pockets and the finances of the regions plummeted.

I would guess that the WRU believe that if you strip out our benefactors then we look very similar to them financially and therefore neither regions is stand alone financially viable.  Of course the bit of the whole situation that stinks is how they view the dragons as financially viable


Thanked.

Whatever I think of the merger, we have debts and we have benefactors.

You could say that about any club/ region in Europe. The difference between us and the O's is they had rank amateurs running the region ours seem to be far more professional.

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.


This...big time

We can still chant it as a nickname, like when we were Llanelli rfc


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by joni_bach joni_bach wrote:

Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

the name doesn't bother me that much to be honest, west wales or west wales scarlets what's the difference?
 
Being able to chant Scarlets and feel it is a continuation of our rugby heritage.


This...big time

We can still chant it as a nickname, like when we were Llanelli rfc
 
What if the team is rebranded to something like Western Eagles or any other awful moniker? Not going to be chanting Scarlets then, are we?


-------------
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: henry_winkler
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:11pm
We need to keep some sort of identity as this is not our doing, we are helping out.

We need to play all games at pys, if we sell out 15k for every euro game then I'd be quite surprised certainly in the first couple of years.

We can't do anything to alienate the Scarlets supporters but we need to do something to include the os fans otherwise all we'll benefit from is more cash and a few of their players until their contracts run out then they'll leave. Securing AWJ and Tips is vital to keep os fans interested.

It's an opportunity, if done right, to more than double our fan base and player pool for many years to come.

But it has to be done correctly.

I was disappointed when the warriors went through the Ospreys had all their players we had 1 and missed out on the years of success that brought them with the likes Ryan Jones playing for them.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by gaffer gaffer wrote:

No compromise on identity. Help as many players from the Ospreys squad as we can, the rest can be shared around or pick up contracts out of Wales (AWJ, Tips, North, Watkin probably). We can't carry their admin/coaching staff as well. I've no idea why we should give any ground when the Ospreys have, to all intents, folded.


This.


Posted By: henry_winkler
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Merging the 2 strongest regions is not in the best interests of welsh rugby, yet keeping the weakest and starting a whole new one from scratch is just bizarre... which makes me wonder what this is really about? and what vested interests are at work? it weakens regional rugby but tightens the grip of the wru



It's about the 12 million off WAG for a North Wales region.

It's about their plan of 2+2 in terms of funding (Good for us to be one of the top 2 it could mean a budget of 10+ million)


And mainly its about the os coming cap in hand looking for someone to rescue their players, staff and region.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:20pm
Gatland just said in the press conference that the Scarlets and Ospreys approached the union over the merger.


Posted By: Legendinmybathroom
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:22pm
The original merger of the Ospreys and Blues was turned down by the Blues, so why on earth, are we in our current strong financial position, even contemplating such a merger. If the WRU are so fussed in not wanting to see the Ospreys fold then why don’t they just give them a loan to see them through this and the next season and put their own cronies in charge to run the ship.
I’d give the North Wales region 5 years max, before the WRU would have to admit defeat and withdraw their funding for the regio (although they never admit to their errors, it’s alway others to blame for their messes).


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

How does it need to happen to safeguard all our futures when two weeks ago we were waving the Ospreys off to be folded into the Blues? Now, in space of days, this has to happen?
 
The people involved in the Ospreys have mismanaged them atrociously. Rather than do the honourable thing and close it down or stump up more of their own money, they want to be 'involved' in a new team with us? I suspect these men are simply used to the trappings and status of being 'players' in Wales due to their association with the nation's rugby heroes and don't want to lose that. They're not prepared to put money into their own team anymore and their mismanagement is about to end pro rugby in Swansea, so I don't think their involvement is exactly necessary.

Timeline is interesting - Os proposed a 50:50 merger with Scarlets to PRB in Jan, which was quickly dismissed. They then wrote a sketchy merger plan for the Blues which Cardiff scuppered by showing their balance sheet (without, it has to be said, sharing their own).

Os then resolved to go alone but, 4 days later, they came back to a propose a minority merger with Scarlets, the feasibility of which is now being evaluated - there's no guarantee that it will be accepted, even if it's rubber-stamped by PRB today.

There are still some very capable and valuable people on the Ospreys roster - they still want to contribute to a successful in the region, and would, no doubt, like to see some reference to their identity in a merged entity, but they don't have a particularly strong hand to play from. I believe they're wanting to do the right thing.

In all this, there has, regrettably, been precious little time to consult with players & staff, let alone fans - the situation now needs urgent action to work out the realistic options, then involve the employees and stakeholders, but the strong intention is to provide a structure that's good for 10+ years, not another interim fix.


Posted By: Winston
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:29pm
So according to Gatland this has nothing to do with the WRU. But shouldn’t the WRU be funding rugby in wales.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by Haruki Haruki wrote:

I think it is important to remember that what has happened at the O's could easily happen to us in 5 or 10 years time. They had relative success on the pitch buoyed by half decent crowds and generous benefactors. They tried to invest to kick on from that position and failed to do so, crowds dropped, benefactors stopped putting their hands in their pockets and the finances of the regions plummeted.

I would guess that the WRU believe that if you strip out our benefactors then we look very similar to them financially and therefore neither regions is stand alone financially viable.  Of course the bit of the whole situation that stinks is how they view the dragons as financially viable


Thanked.

Whatever I think of the merger, we have debts and we have benefactors.

You could say that about any club/ region in Europe. The difference between us and the O's is they had rank amateurs running the region ours seem to be far more professional.


How is any other club in Europe relevant here. Lost me on that.

The rest us just an opinion.


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Winston Winston wrote:

So according to Gatland this has nothing to do with the WRU. But shouldn’t the WRU be funding rugby in wales.
There is no parent/child relationship in this - PRB was formed to enable all pro entities (WRU + 4 Regions) to define their own destiny, and that's now what's happening, at last. There will be pain, as there is in any major change, but it is absolutely vital that it happens, and happens properly.

"Ask not what your Union can do for you, but what you can do for the Union."


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:37pm
If the Scarlets proposed it it’s pretty much a done deal. It’s up to them to keep the identity now.


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:38pm
I was just saying that we are not alone in relying on benefactors you brought up the fact we rely on benefactors. When Mr Blyth said that Millward needed time as he was learning the job that to me wreaks of amateurism but yes only my opinion.

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Haruki Haruki wrote:

I think it is important to remember that what has happened at the O's could easily happen to us in 5 or 10 years time. They had relative success on the pitch buoyed by half decent crowds and generous benefactors. They tried to invest to kick on from that position and failed to do so, crowds dropped, benefactors stopped putting their hands in their pockets and the finances of the regions plummeted.

I would guess that the WRU believe that if you strip out our benefactors then we look very similar to them financially and therefore neither regions is stand alone financially viable.  Of course the bit of the whole situation that stinks is how they view the dragons as financially viable
Good post.

Not so long ago we came very close to the position the Ospreys find themselves in now and there is no guarantee that we wont find ourselves in that position again. I think the worst solution for us would have been a Blues/Ospreys merger with all the home grown talent East of the Lougher right through to Cardiff and up to the heads of the valleys being funneled into that region. We would struggle to compete with that.  

We MUST keep our brand, our identity but I think some sort of merger where current and future players  developed in the Ospreys region are channelled into us, has to be a serious option for us to consider for no other reason than it would in my opinion help to future proof our region. 


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That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.


Posted By: PE SA
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Gatland just said in the press conference that the Scarlets and Ospreys approached the union over the merger.
Gatland also said Project Reset was sorted months back.


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Warren Gatland Warren Gatland wrote:

It’s been a challenge for the players. That’s why we had Martyn Phillips here yesterday addressing the squad.

The PRB involves the four regions and the union. This hasn’t been driven by the union, it was approached by two regions about a merger because some of the difficulties we are aware of because of the financial pressures.

It’s about getting the professional game right in Wales.
Originally posted by Warren Gatland Warren Gatland wrote:

I want to reiterate it has not been driven by the WRU but by the regions.

There’s been a lot of criticism of the WRU in the last 48 hours but a lot of it is misinformation.

People want to take a breath. We need to work together for the best solution for the game in Wales.
Originally posted by Warren Gatland Warren Gatland wrote:

There’s no doubt the player have been distracted. It is concerning. Players have been going home and asked question by wives and partners what’s going on.

Our message to the players is we need to wait and see what the outcome of the PRB meeting is going to be, the conclusion between the four regions and the union collectively. It’s a joint decision.

You try and put players minds to rest and focus on winning Six Nations.
Originally posted by Warren Gatland Warren Gatland wrote:

One of the disappointments in Wales since I have been here is I don’t think we have had a strong enough players association.

It’s been very, very poor in the past. It needs to be strong and part of decisions.

They’re trying to rectify that and have more of a say. It’s something I have encouraged the players to do over a period of time.


Posted By: shocker
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:46pm
Question is, will this forum become the oslets fan forum


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:46pm
First of all - IMO, the Scarlets (who are apparently financially more stable than the other regions, be it because of 'sensible' benefactors) should not be asked to lose their identity.

Secondly - there are many good people at the Ospreys, and our derby matches have been highlights and big draws over the years... if at all possible, I'd prefer to see them survive as a separate entity. We won't get such big crowds for other matches.

Thirdly - if there is no way for the Ospreys to survive financially, then surely what we're looking at is more akin to a takeover than a merger? In which case - the Scarlets name needs to survive, and we can take on some of their better players and maybe staff... and if RGC is to be a 'new' region, anyone who is not staying with the Scarlets should be offered a contract with the 'new' region, to avoid redundancies etc - which must be a major worry for some. In time, players (and coaches) who are good enough will find their way to the top, either in Wales or by moving to England or France. No-one should be kicked out at short notice in the current circumstances.

Let's hope for some common sense, and no diktats from the top.


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I share no-one's ideas. I have my own.
(Ivan Turgenev)


Posted By: Mike
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Timeline is interesting - Os proposed a 50:50 merger with Scarlets to PRB in Jan, which was quickly dismissed. They then wrote a sketchy merger plan for the Blues which Cardiff scuppered by showing their balance sheet (without, it has to be said, sharing their own).

Os then resolved to go alone but, 4 days later, they came back to a propose a minority merger with Scarlets, the feasibility of which is now being evaluated - there's no guarantee that it will be accepted, even if it's rubber-stamped by PRB today.
 
There are still some very capable and valuable people on the Ospreys roster - they still want to contribute to a successful in the region, and would, no doubt, like to see some reference to their identity in a merged entity, but they don't have a particularly strong hand to play from. I believe they're wanting to do the right thing.

In all this, there has, regrettably, been precious little time to consult with players & staff, let alone fans - the situation now needs urgent action to work out the realistic options, then involve the employees and stakeholders, but the strong intention is to provide a structure that's good for 10+ years, not another interim fix.
 
Thanks, appreciate the answer.
 
We've got to see sense over the identity though. New, merged or rootless identities have been proven not to work... all of them have been mired in controversy and conflict, the Ospreys less so because at the time it was a merger of equals heading to a new stadium, and with a common foe (us) to bind an identity around. That won't be the case here. It would be more akin to the Dragons with unwanted and unnecessary branding squatting on and toxifying the host organisation.
 
We can make some concessions to reflect an expanded region I'm sure. Kit colours, stadium inventory, I would even swallow a couple of games elsewhere, but it must be a continuation of the Scarlets. If it's not, something very precious with real culture and heritage values will be destroyed that no 'step-child' successor will ever be able to replace or emulate.


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> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2010/11 < > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOKLtQs6m0" rel="nofollow - 2009/10 <


Posted By: Llannman74
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:53pm
Are we human or are we
      SCARLETS !!!!!

All I got to say......

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Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies....
.


Posted By: joni_bach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:55pm
Ospreys chairman resigns

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54260" rel="nofollow - http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54260


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Llannman74 Llannman74 wrote:

Are we human or are we
      SCARLETS !!!!!

All I got to say......


"Are weeeee huuuuuumaaaaan, or are weee West Waaaales Mountain Lioooons "


Posted By: Sosban bach
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:57pm
For the players that want to play in the merged team where does that leave the others? North wales or you can go over the border and not play for Wales? Surely that law will have to be done away with then? If we come away with anything other than keeping scarlets and all our games in pys then the board can go away


Posted By: gaffer
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:58pm
Castell Howell Welsh Cakes West v Peter's Pies East - the future, it's written


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What's going on?


Posted By: EJPT
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Llannman74 Llannman74 wrote:

Are we human or are we
      SCARLETS !!!!!

All I got to say......


"Are weeeee huuuuuumaaaaan, or are weee West Waaaales Mountain Lioooons "

Very college american football
Followed by chants of ‘i believe that we will win, i believe that we will win!’


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by joni_bach joni_bach wrote:

Ospreys chairman resigns

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54260" rel="nofollow - http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54260

Blimey, one of their main benefactors gone already! ShockedShockedShocked


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Guinness Pro 12 Champions 2017...get in!


Posted By: gaffer
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 3:00pm
"

Mike James is to be succeeded as chairman by fellow Ospreys benefactor Rob Davies who, like James, has injected millions into the Ospreys, helping it become the most successful Welsh side in the regional game. It is understood that Davies will start his new role by overseeing a legal and financial forensic review of the WRU’s actions in administrating Project Reset. 

Amongst the concerns to be investigated is the independence of the WRU’s role given its conflict of interests, the lack of appropriate transparency and adequate governance in the Project Reset process, as well as inducements by officers of the WRU for the regional side to commit further private funds to the game whilst acting against its interests."

Trouble brewing...it'll be a while before this is sorted!





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What's going on?


Posted By: Mr Ian
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 3:09pm
I think wru have high consideration of Scarlets board and would like to give them this new rugby entity. Our staff knew all of this storia and I think they talked before with the sponsors about this new scenario. Now Scarlets board have the ball in hands and they have to close the deal and be able to safeguard the Scarlets brand


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 05 March 2019 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

The developments have been a bit of a shock. We had conversations last week. We want what’s best for Welsh rugby at all levels of the game.

Regional rugby has been struggling to compete. If this is the best way forward so be it.

If this comes off two strong teams come together and make one very strong team. We want to be part of the discussions.

Is the alternative a region going into oblivion. We don’t know the full facts.
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

I have just heard the Ospreys chairman Mike James has resigned. It’s a bit unfair for him to be pointing the finger at one entity when we are all in it together with the PRB being all of us.

'Four regions better than three'?
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

Martyn Phillips was pretty honest at yesterday’s meeting.

If there are mergers or a team opening in north Wales there’s still going to be work for 230 players.

I’m a lot happier with that than seeing us going down to three teams and 40-50 players being put out of work at this stage.
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

There’s a little bit of anger among the players. For someone like myself and Alun Wyn Jones, one-club men, there’s the question of how the new entity is going to look.

Some boys have got offers over the bridge. Do they take them or wait to see where the land lies.

As chairman of the WRPA, I have got to look at the big picture. I think Warren Gatland’s criticism of the WRPA was fair. When I first started it was a 10% discount at Nandos.

Over last three or four years we have got organised and more powerful. We want to play a bigger role. We are a long way forward from where we were with the senior players getting involved and taking it forward.

On being distracted...
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

I get asked to do everything, play at No.8… I will probably be asked to play at 10. But it won’t affect my performance on Saturday. I try to do my best for the players. Sometimes I get it wrong. It is a stressful time.

Some of the younger guys probably don’t understand the ins and outs and ramifications. Has it been a distraction? It’s Welsh rugby, it always is. With Phillips coming in yesterday we got a little bit of clarity. We are excited about going to Scotland and the challenge - they are a very good team.

We are a tight squad and work hard for each other. This isn’t going to split us at all. It will bring us closer together and hopefully we will take our frustrations out on Saturday.


Q: Would players play up north?
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

I think so. Why not? We just all wish David Moffett had the backbone 16 years ago with his statement I have seen this morning because this is basically the proposal that was put out back then. It’s probably the right way forward potentially.

Can arch rivals Scarlets and Ospreys come together?
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

What’s the alternatives, potentially a region going into oblivion. We don’t know the full facts.

If you are completely honest, would you want rather see a combined Scarlets-Ospreys team or just a plain Scarlets team or an Ospreys team because one of the others perhaps has gone into oblivion where the player would probably be in a worse state than with a merger.
Originally posted by Ken Owens Ken Owens wrote:

As players, we had conversations last week. We were told nothing was off the table but it was a bit of a shock to hear of the merger.

We want what’s best for Welsh rugby and the success of the sport at all levels of the game.

We can’t hide from the fact regional rugby has been struggling, for whatever reason, to compete and if this is the best way forward then as players we support it.

We could possibly help in the process a lot more because, if this does come off, two very two strong teams are going to have to come together and make one very strong team hopefully.

We do support what’s best for Welsh rugby as well.



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