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Israel Folau has been wronged.

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Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: GENERAL RUGBY
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Topic: Israel Folau has been wronged.
Posted By: rygbi11
Subject: Israel Folau has been wronged.
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 4:54pm
Can't believe Israel Folau won't be playing at the Rugby World Cup. He's entitled to his beliefs and if people don't like what he believes in then tough. Back in the 1950s he wouldn't have been sacked. Just shows how backwards society has beacome.



Replies:
Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:04pm
If they insist on punishing him then fine him but don't stop the world's best fullback from playing at the 2019 Rugby World Cup for God's sake.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

for God's sake.


I don't think it will be for his sake.

Just incase you're serious and not posting for a reaction: He broke the terms of his contract. So just like any other person - was likely to be shown the door.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:08pm
Or at most do not let him play in the 2019 Four Nations but let him play at the World Cup.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:15pm
It just seems ultra harsh to me what's happened to Folau.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

It just seems ultra harsh to me what's happened to Folau.


H was warned. He did it again.

So not harsh in the slightest.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:28pm
He deserves to be forgiven and allowed to play in the World Cup.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:29pm
We do not live in a merciless, babaric society after all.


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

It just seems ultra harsh to me what's happened to Folau.


H was warned. He did it again.

So not harsh in the slightest.

Pushed for by Qantas who are partners with Brunei airlines , a country where being gay can get you killed , yet they haven't pulled out of that deal

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:33pm
Exactly. They seem to be unfairly picking on Folau for some reason.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:36pm
Possibly he has been discriminated against because he is slightly coloured?


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:41pm
They've shown him no mercy and that's not right at all.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

slightly coloured?


The worrying thing is I have no way to be sure if you are a troll or not.

Very hard to tell the difference these days. This thread won't last the night.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:49pm
There are people who have done much worse than Folau and they have been forgiven.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:52pm
You cannot say that what he's done is unforgivable.


Posted By: rygbi11
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 5:53pm
But there are some really nasty people out there that say it's unforgivable! And they drive me insane.


Posted By: Owen111
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

There are people who have done much worse than Folau and they have been forgiven.

Did they play fullback for the Wallabies? 


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

But there are some really nasty people out there that say it's unforgivable! And they drive me insane.


Do you have to.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 7:28pm
Use different posts for your ramblings?


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 8:49pm
Trolling hint. Get a few replies before you embellish your original post. Responding to your own posts isn’t a good sign really.

2/10.


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 10:02pm
please continue, this is surely contender of thread of the year.. this is pure scarletfever gold.....

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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

But there are some really nasty people out there that say it's unforgivable! And they drive me insane.

Come on son, say it as you mean it.. let it go buddy.. surely God forgives???


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 8:05am
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

Can't believe Israel Folau won't be playing at the Rugby World Cup. He's entitled to his beliefs and if people don't like what he believes in then tough. Back in the 1950s he wouldn't have been sacked. Just shows how backwards society has beacome.
What would your position be on a Scarlets player who started tweeting homeophobic comments, followed by a few squad members agreeing and liking his tweets, maybe a few fans in the crowd on game day joining in?  How would you deal with that player?

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: redeyes
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 9:57am
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

Possibly he has been discriminated against because he is slightly coloured?

I'm not sure you understand how employment contracts work? LOL


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The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!




Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:47am
Despite the very obvious trolling nature of the original post there is a very important issue at stake here. Freedom of speech is one area which many learned legal people would argue is outside the control of any contract conditions. 

There is an argument to be made that Folau is only repeating the teachings of his belief regime and therefore cannot be guilty, as to be found guilty, would be denying him his basic right of freedom of speech. Team Australia may well choose not to select him but it remains to be seen whether he will still be entitled to his full remuneration during the term of his contract. 

Any clause in any contract will only stand if it does not breach certain fundamental rights which are deemed non negotiable. There is some mileage left in this yet. 


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 11:08am
Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.

Wholeheartedly agree with the specific point you make Wil vis a vis the United strip. However when it comes to some specific rights regarded throughout the civilised World as fundamental then there will be some who say that no contract clauses can stand if they allow an individual to sign away one of these rights. 

Personally I don't think Folau has been treated unfairly but I have not seen his contract so cannot comment accurately. One thing is for sure Folau will have taken some pretty high level legal advice before his meeting tomorrow and if any clause which Rugby Australia is relying on should be deemed unlawful then Rugby Australia's legal advisers will be feeling pretty uncomfortable. 


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 12:02pm
It will fascinating to see it play out.


Posted By: BlackwoodScarlet
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.


Wholeheartedly agree with the specific point you make Wil vis a vis the United strip. However when it comes to some specific rights regarded throughout the civilised World as fundamental then there will be some who say that no contract clauses can stand if they allow an individual to sign away one of these rights. 

Personally I don't think Folau has been treated unfairly but I have not seen his contract so cannot comment accurately. One thing is for sure Folau will have taken some pretty high level legal advice before his meeting tomorrow and if any clause which Rugby Australia is relying on should be deemed unlawful then Rugby Australia's legal advisers will be feeling pretty uncomfortable. 

The main issue I have is that it's been reported that Qantas pushed for his dismissal, yet this company has a partnership with Brunei airways, It's seems to be very hypocritical to push for his sacking yet be happy to be partners with a company whose country now has the death pentaly for being homosexual

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If it bleeds we can can kill it


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Despite the very obvious trolling nature of the original post there is a very important issue at stake here. Freedom of speech is one area which many learned legal people would argue is outside the control of any contract conditions. 

There is an argument to be made that Folau is only repeating the teachings of his belief regime and therefore cannot be guilty, as to be found guilty, would be denying him his basic right of freedom of speech. Team Australia may well choose not to select him but it remains to be seen whether he will still be entitled to his full remuneration during the term of his contract. 

Any clause in any contract will only stand if it does not breach certain fundamental rights which are deemed non negotiable. There is some mileage left in this yet. 

May I just point out this sentence from my sister as we were discussing it, and she is actually a qualified lawyer in Australia: "Australia is not the USA and there is no constitutional right to speech here, and certainly we have laws prohibiting hate speech."

She'll probably sue me now for posting her words without her permission. Wink

She also agreed it seems to be breech of contract and there are many contracts which prohibit bringing the employer into disrepute. Even when there is freedom of speech there are other laws around... 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 1:38pm
will be fascinating to see how this plays out and if that contract is water tight

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: SospanMawr
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 2:34pm
One of the worst trolling attempts I’ve seen on this site. 12 posts on the first page alone by the account, and if you take a quick peek at his past posting record you see a sexist opinion on the new team manager (deleted) and suggestions that Gav Henson should become our head coach.


Posted By: Turkpower
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 3:04pm
He had been behaving so well recently as well.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by rygbi11 rygbi11 wrote:

Exactly. They seem to be unfairly picking on Folau for some reason.


If everyone on this forum made disparaging remarks about you would you be insulted? You seem a brainless, irritating idiot. Freedom of speech so you can’t have a go at me that would be barbaric.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.


Wholeheartedly agree with the specific point you make Wil vis a vis the United strip. However when it comes to some specific rights regarded throughout the civilised World as fundamental then there will be some who say that no contract clauses can stand if they allow an individual to sign away one of these rights. 

Personally I don't think Folau has been treated unfairly but I have not seen his contract so cannot comment accurately. One thing is for sure Folau will have taken some pretty high level legal advice before his meeting tomorrow and if any clause which Rugby Australia is relying on should be deemed unlawful then Rugby Australia's legal advisers will be feeling pretty uncomfortable. 

The main issue I have is that it's been reported that Qantas pushed for his dismissal, yet this company has a partnership with Brunei airways, It's seems to be very hypocritical to push for his sacking yet be happy to be partners with a company whose country now has the death pentaly for being homosexual


In all fairness, Brunei’s governing body only announced a step change in its positioning on LGBTQI a few weeks ago, I doubt very much Qantas, who’s CEO Alan Joyce is openly gay, would be ‘ happy ‘ about it. All Qantas have said is they are really disappointed and Israel’s comments don’t reflect their inclusive approach.

No suggestion of pushing for his dismissal.


Posted By: M.M.
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.

Nailed.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 11:48am
I am a little surprised why Rugby Australia have reportedly offered Folau over £500,000 to cancel his contract. This was offered prior to his hearing this weekend. Why offer a financial incentive to terminate a contract when, apparently, he is in clear breach.  Perhaps it is not quite as cut and dried as many thought. 


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 3:25pm
Two possible (linked)issues...there are rumours abound about Rugby Australia's financial status, and also that the clause allegedly built in to Israel's contract is not as cut and dried as Rugby Australia announced.

Either way the odds just swung considerably in favor of the player today.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by M.M. M.M. wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Yep for sure.

Important (in my opinion) is that Rugby Australia did not constrain his beliefs in any way, just contracted him not to state them in the public domain. Some people call this a constraint or preventing his freedom of speech...it’s not..he can say what he wants, but there are consequences, and he signed up and agreed to what they were.

I can state on social media that I make Manchester United’s new strip for next season, but i am constrained by my contract terms to tell you how or where I make them, or what they look like. Doesn’t mean I can’t say it, just that if I do I would stand to lose my job.

Baffles me how anyone thinks a loss of employment is harsh in Israel’s case.

Nailed.

maybe ...maybe not 


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 5:22pm
Depends on the contract clauses, whether they existed and were they explicit in this situation.

Part of Folau's defence is that the clause isn't there or isn't applicable. only the legal teams know about that.

His legal teams other contention is that he was only quoting out of the bible and not making a personalized statement or observation.


Lots of possible and actual zig zags now...Israel seems to have rethought his previous statement about resigning from his contract with Rugby Australia when this all went public.

Rugby Australia, confident enough to dismiss Israel for his comments 2 weeks ago, but then allegedly offer him a cash sum as a settlement.

This end of season has been nothing short of bizarre.






Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 5:25pm
jesus wept.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 5:28pm
John. Chapter 11 , verse 35.


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 9:51am
Israel Folau has been found guilty of a "high level breach" of Rugby Australia's player code of conduct after he said "hell awaits" gay people in a social media post.

A three-person panel who presided over his hearing will now consider what punishment the 30-year-old will face.



Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Israel Folau has been found guilty of a "high level breach" of Rugby Australia's player code of conduct after he said "hell awaits" gay people in a social media post.

A three-person panel who presided over his hearing will now consider what punishment the 30-year-old will face.


Very interesting - not in breach of his contract I see. Termination of his contract seems an outside chance now I feel - more like a ban of some sorts. 


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 9:59am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Israel Folau has been found guilty of a "high level breach" of Rugby Australia's player code of conduct after he said "hell awaits" gay people in a social media post.

A three-person panel who presided over his hearing will now consider what punishment the 30-year-old will face.


Very interesting - not in breach of his contract I see. Termination of his contract seems an outside chance now I feel - more like a ban of some sorts. 


By all accounts Michael Cheika has said it is unlikely he will be picked to represent Australia again, however I am unsure if this comment was made before or after the outcome listed above.


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 1:09pm
High level breach is the only outcome which could end up with the players contract terminated. 

I am assuming that high level breach refers to the terms of his contract with the ARU.

Interesting?


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 7:49am
It refers to the code of conduct nothing to do with his employment contract. All squad players sign up to an agreed code of contract. He is not in breach of his contract. What the punishment will be is uncertain but it does appear that the announcement of his contract termination was at best a little premature. 

Personally I don't see him being selected for Australia again as sponsors will distance themselves but whether he serves out his 4 year deal with the Waratahs is very much up for grabs. 


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 9:21am
On another note London irish fans up in arms over the signing of paddy jackson


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 1:43pm
Israel Folau has lost his sponsorship deal with sportswear brand Asics. Asics is the second sponsor to have cut ties with Folau after Land Rover withdrew a car issued to him.


Posted By: Mrfwon
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Israel Folau has lost his sponsorship deal with sportswear brand Asics. Asics is the second sponsor to have cut ties with Folau after Land Rover withdrew a car issued to him.

Yup. Sadly, this is one of the negative things about social media, you have to be careful these days what you say, especially on Twitter. 


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Scarlets!!!


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Mrfwon Mrfwon wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Israel Folau has lost his sponsorship deal with sportswear brand Asics. Asics is the second sponsor to have cut ties with Folau after Land Rover withdrew a car issued to him.

Yup. Sadly, this is one of the negative things about social media, you have to be careful these days what you say, especially on Twitter. 

Why is taking responsibility for something you choose to type and share with the world a negative thing? People should actually think about what they type: how it will impact others and how it will be perceived. It's not a personal conversation that has been overheard or something taken out of context.

Nor was he hiding behind a pseudonym. You can post any old nonsense that way. Wink



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