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Return to Club format

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Topic: Return to Club format
Posted By: ScarletMagpie67
Subject: Return to Club format
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 3:19pm
Hi everyone, I’m a new member so would firstly like to say Shwmae I chi gyd .
Just wondering what is everyone thoughts on Jiffy’s suggestion last week that perhaps because of the financial implications of the Pandemic the Welsh game may have to return to a club format and play just within Wales 



Replies:
Posted By: Mugwuffin
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 4:41pm
It’d be very bad news for the club and the national team. 

There’d be little money in it in terms of TV and sponsorship in comparison to the English and French leagues, meaning we’d struggle to keep our top players. The standard of play would be poor too if semi pro players were involved in most of the games. That would probably have a knock on performance in international matches as the players would be off the pace due to the easy rugby they’d Have been playing. 


Posted By: 157cb
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 5:13pm

   Let's face it that will not happen. 


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by ScarletMagpie67 ScarletMagpie67 wrote:

Hi everyone, I’m a new member so would firstly like to say Shwmae I chi gyd .
Just wondering what is everyone thoughts on Jiffy’s suggestion last week that perhaps because of the financial implications of the Pandemic the Welsh game may have to return to a club format and play just within Wales 
I think it’s a ridiculous suggestion. There’s also zero chance of it happening. 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 5:38pm
I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.

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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
Exactly 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: stradeyscarlet72
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 6:00pm
Absolutely- as mentioned previously, the English as much or if not more than us are struggling financially. An Anglo welsh or British league is the way forward 


Posted By: Rob Hunt
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.
with the likely travel restrictions they might not be binding.

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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: stradeyscarlet72
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 6:36pm
The likes of Bristol,bath and Glos are far Closer than other non welsh pro teams.  Not just stating the bleeding obvious 


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.
It’s a question of when. The WRU and all the other unions will do whatever it takes to make as much money as they can following this pandemic. Also it’s up to CVC

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Rob Hunt
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.
It’s a question of when. The WRU and all the other unions will do whatever it takes to make as much money as they can following this pandemic. Also it’s up to CVC
My comments were in relation to an Anglo-Welsh league.


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.
It’s a question of when. The WRU and all the other unions will do whatever it takes to make as much money as they can following this pandemic. Also it’s up to CVC
My comments were in relation to an Anglo-Welsh league.
I know. A British and Irish league is likely 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by ScarletMagpie67 ScarletMagpie67 wrote:

Hi everyone, I’m a new member so would firstly like to say Shwmae I chi gyd .
Just wondering what is everyone thoughts on Jiffy’s suggestion last week that perhaps because of the financial implications of the Pandemic the Welsh game may have to return to a club format and play just within Wales 
I think it was ignorant, clueless, attention seeking trolling. 



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We're still still here!


Posted By: pillory
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 11:29am
That would be a short-term thing.
Long-term, I think it's important to think about how the immediate crisis is pushing unions and bodies to accelerate efforts to raise capital from private investors. Notwithstanding the current inability to travel. that could make larger, cross-border competitions like a European or world league more likely, right?

I think it's interesting to ponder how BOTH those capital-raising issues and the current financial crisis posed to regions combine to influence the shape of our region and others going forward...

Does the prospect of a European or world league mean organisers would want entities with strong brands (both Scarlets and Ospreys are strong brands, even if one dates back more than a century)? Does an influx of new money reduce the necessity to merge? Or will it come too late - will the current financial crisis force renewed merger talks? Perhaps much rests on to what extent the Ospreys backers' tolerance for long-term commitment will have been impacted during this period.

I guess a European or global league still doesn't necessarily swell the gates at stadia. Doubly so, if people aren't travelling post-pandemic.

What is shifting about the English situation that would prompt them to reconsider a British & Irish league? Their own financial structural issues, exacerbated by the pandemic, boosted by private equity incentivising them to a British TV deal, right?


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 11:51am
Originally posted by pillory pillory wrote:

That would be a short-term thing.
Long-term, I think it's important to think about how the immediate crisis is pushing unions and bodies to accelerate efforts to raise capital from private investors. Notwithstanding the current inability to travel. that could make larger, cross-border competitions like a European or world league more likely, right?

I think it's interesting to ponder how BOTH those capital-raising issues and the current financial crisis posed to regions combine to influence the shape of our region and others going forward...

Does the prospect of a European or world league mean organisers would want entities with strong brands (both Scarlets and Ospreys are strong brands, even if one dates back more than a century)? Does an influx of new money reduce the necessity to merge? Or will it come too late - will the current financial crisis force renewed merger talks? Perhaps much rests on to what extent the Ospreys backers' tolerance for long-term commitment will have been impacted during this period.

I guess a European or global league still doesn't necessarily swell the gates at stadia. Doubly so, if people aren't travelling post-pandemic.

What is shifting about the English situation that would prompt them to reconsider a British & Irish league? Their own financial structural issues, exacerbated by the pandemic, boosted by private equity incentivising them to a British TV deal, right?

Interesting points. There has been much talk of the Ospreys financial situation but I have to be honest and say that I have not seen any evidence which suggests they are any worse off than us or indeed the Blues. Yes we are very capably run by an excellent team of administrators & we have our own excellent facility which does differentiate us from other Welsh regions. 

As for merger talk a lot will depend on the CVC deal and how much political stomach still exists for there to be a North Wales region post the pandemic when the Welsh Government will surely have far more on its plate than sporting issues. 

The situation in England is very interesting. Clubs are growing increasingly disillusioned by the costs being pumped into PRL feeling that they could save those millions and do the job themselves. In addition there is and always has been a lot of friction between the clubs and the RFU. The RFU appears to be a poorly run organisation still full of blazers or as Will Carling said old farts. The RFU structure is unwieldy and expensive and many clubs feel they are not rewarded enough for producing the Internationals of tomorrow.

If English clubs feel there is support from broadcasters for a British/Irish league or indeed a full European league then it will gain traction.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 12:13pm
History tells us that English clubs will do what they think benefits them. If someone shows them a 5 yr plan that Anglo-Welsh or British league will result in more revenue per club than other options, that's what they will take. There's no sentimentality (or not very much)

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We're still still here!


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 12:21pm
B and i lge makes too much sense not too happen. If not cvc wouldn’t invest if we back to clubs pro rugby is dead in wales


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

B and i lge makes too much sense not too happen. If not cvc wouldn’t invest if we back to clubs pro rugby is dead in wales

Can't ever see a return to club structure in Wales - regions or nothing. 


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 12:29pm
Moved this post to this thread.

Before I carry on with this post I can 100% state that I am in favour of a British and Irish League. That would be Shangri-La. However....

How on earth can this come about? We are part of a Union, that Union is part of the Six Nations, that committee is part of World Rugby. 

CVC is set to invest £120m into the PRO14.

Italy, who are member of the 6 Nations have two teams on the PRO14.

South Africa have 2 teams in the PRO14 and the TV revenue that entails, which are bound by contracts no doubt. They want to put more clubs in.

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a British League?
Do the Irish want it, would they ditch their european partner country, the PRO14 headquarters are in Dublin and many believe it is run by them and for them?
How can the PRO14 tear up contracts kick out the Italians and the South Africans?
What would happen to the Italian clubs, where would The Cheetahs and Kings go?
How would all the Unions agree to this?
How would the 6 Nations Committee agree to this?
How would World Rugby agree to this?

I can only imagine one scenario how it could work and that would have to be a Kerry Packer type situation where CVC and or multiple huge TV deals came about and all the English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish sides would breakaway from their Unions and World Rugby and set up their own administration. Could the clubs survive on their own without Union backing? There could be a 5 Nations, but no more games in the Principality, Twickenham, Murrayfield or the Aviva. No more Heineken Cup, The World Cup, gone.

If there was a Nations Cup and World Rugby relagated Italy to the second tier that might work. But are the Southern Hemisphere going to play ball now? There seems no chance. New Zealand seem to be pulling up the drawbridge.

There are posters on here who's views I respect and they have said a British and Irish League is coming. But please explain to me how a British and Irish League is going to happen. I'd be delighted if someone can put up some credible pathway to that. Honestly. I'll be landed.

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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: Legendinmybathroom
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 1:28pm
My understanding of Jiffy’s article was that he was suggesting that some of the region’s players could appear in the premiership when the Pro14 is officially shut down until travel restrictions are relaxed in order to stay match fit and maybe improve the quality of the premiership on a short term.
But again that only applies if and when the WRU feel that it’s safe to resume playing rugby at club level.
If both recommence at the same time then his proposal would not be possible.


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Moved this post to this thread.

Before I carry on with this post I can 100% state that I am in favour of a British and Irish League. That would be Shangri-La. However....

How on earth can this come about? We are part of a Union, that Union is part of the Six Nations, that committee is part of World Rugby. 

CVC is set to invest £120m into the PRO14.

Italy, who are member of the 6 Nations have two teams on the PRO14.

South Africa have 2 teams in the PRO14 and the TV revenue that entails, which are bound by contracts no doubt. They want to put more clubs in.

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a British League?
Do the Irish want it, would they ditch their european partner country, the PRO14 headquarters are in Dublin and many believe it is run by them and for them?
How can the PRO14 tear up contracts kick out the Italians and the South Africans?
What would happen to the Italian clubs, where would The Cheetahs and Kings go?
How would all the Unions agree to this?
How would the 6 Nations Committee agree to this?
How would World Rugby agree to this?

I can only imagine one scenario how it could work and that would have to be a Kerry Packer type situation where CVC and or multiple huge TV deals came about and all the English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish sides would breakaway from their Unions and World Rugby and set up their own administration. Could the clubs survive on their own without Union backing? There could be a 5 Nations, but no more games in the Principality, Twickenham, Murrayfield or the Aviva. No more Heineken Cup, The World Cup, gone.

If there was a Nations Cup and World Rugby relagated Italy to the second tier that might work. But are the Southern Hemisphere going to play ball now? There seems no chance. New Zealand seem to be pulling up the drawbridge.

There are posters on here who's views I respect and they have said a British and Irish League is coming. But please explain to me how a British and Irish League is going to happen. I'd be delighted if someone can put up some credible pathway to that. Honestly. I'll be landed.
CVC want a British and Irish league. It’s all in the small print. Plus who says the unions are against it? Everything is in place they just need to seize this opportunity. Personally don’t see a prosperous future for Welsh pro rugby without it.

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Mugwuffin
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 1:54pm
I could see the Irish being a stumbling block to a B&I League. The English clubs would hold the whip as there’s more of them and with England being by far the biggest market, that’s where the bulk of the money would be coming from. They wouldn’t be happy with Leinster dominating or the lack of transparency in what the wage bills are for the provinces. Having two different currencies in one league would make a salary cap more complicated too. 

It’s a shame the French clubs aren’t keen for the Irish and Italians to join their system. That’d sort the currency problem out for us. 


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 10 May 2020 at 2:43pm
CVC want a British and Irish league. It’s all in the small print. Plus who says the unions are against it? Everything is in place they just need to seize this opportunity. Personally don’t see a prosperous future for Welsh pro rugby without it.

For a B&I league to be created the 6 Nations Committee would need to want it and agree to it. If CVC are to invest in the 6 Nations then I can see an angle there. But do Italy get to continue in the 6 Nations with only having what would become 2 semi pro teams playing domestic leauge rugby? Then there's the issue of South Africa. Do they come into the 6 Nations, to make it 7? Or do they take Italy's place. You would then need SA sides in the 'B&I League' wouldnt you?

The alternative is to let current PRO14 SA TV contracts expire, say thanks and da bo to the Kings and Cheetahs and say chow to Treviso and Zebre. Would World Rugby stand by and let that happen or have they any say in the matter? Morally it seems pretty harsh.

Personally I'm against a League that includes long distance flights. At the moment the obvious deterrant is Covid 19, but looking ahead the climate would be better off if Pro leagues were more localised. Ive backed the PRO14, and would continue to do so if that's what we're left with, because 'a' Pro league is better than nothing.

I want to see this happening, but too many false Dawns have left me sceptical.


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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: henry_winkler
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 1:43pm
With the French boycotting the champions cup next year and the logistical problems with covid now is the perfect time for radical change.

For me I think the safest option would be an Anglo Welsh league, no real border crossing involved or we may see a British league 


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 1:51pm
If Bill Beaumont is serious, then its his chance to change the game, get the structure, the season, the competitions right and he will quite rightly be hailed as a saviour of rugby as we think we know it. Do nothing, and then it will became a minority sport, even more than it is, even in Wales. 

I don't take great pleasure in writing this, but I feel except for the 6 nations & World Cup it is falling behind everyone.


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: N14
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

If Bill Beaumont is serious, then its his chance to change the game, get the structure, the season, the competitions right and he will quite rightly be hailed as a saviour of rugby as we think we know it. Do nothing, and then it will became a minority sport, even more than it is, even in Wales. 

I don't take great pleasure in writing this, but I feel except for the 6 nations & World Cup it is falling behind everyone.

Completely agree, I think it's now or never to bring about radical change. And as you say, we will simply fall behind, or should I say even further behind, other mainstream sports if we don't make big changes.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by henry_winkler henry_winkler wrote:

With the French boycotting the champions cup next year and the logistical problems with covid now is the perfect time for radical change.

For me I think the safest option would be an Anglo Welsh league, no real border crossing involved or we may see a British league 



I didn't know they has opted out next season in France. Interesting.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Mugwuffin Mugwuffin wrote:

I could see the Irish being a stumbling block to a B&I League.

Excellent. They can go and play Zebre and the Cheetahs every week.


Posted By: henry_winkler
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by henry_winkler henry_winkler wrote:

With the French boycotting the champions cup next year and the logistical problems with covid now is the perfect time for radical change.

For me I think the safest option would be an Anglo Welsh league, no real border crossing involved or we may see a British league 



I didn't know they has opted out next season in France. Interesting.

According to some French newspaper they are threatening to boycott as they want 8 teams in it. If true I say leave them there and use this as an opportunity to make a really good British and Irish league that is the pinnacle of club rugby 
and doesn't need a Euro cup to elevate the season.


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 5:52pm
The ownership of the pro 14 after CVC's investment was said to be the three Celtic unions a bit less than 25% each and CVC the rest. The effect of this is that if CVC and one union vote for change then it happens because they have more than 50%. So the Irish do not have control over what happens.   


Posted By: Legendinmybathroom
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 8:40pm
If that is correct, then that’s a very interesting development.  For far too long the Irish have run the Pro12-14 and previously the Celtic League.  Someone else having a bigger say in the way the league is run or in a change of direct is much needed.  Just look at the latest plan being mooted, with the Scottish and Welsh sides being asked to decamp to Ireland just sums up the league and it’s management.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 12 May 2020 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a
British League?



It's worth noting that the English teams signed a deal that sees CVC have a 91% stake in the company that looks after Premiirship rugby's commercial activity - that means that whatever CVBC want to happen commercial wise - will happen.

Quote All the clubs – the 12 currently in the Premiership plus Championship leaders London Irish – have now received their cash windfall from CVC of £13.5m each, with £25m retained to administer and promote the new set-up. i understands 10 of the 13 clubs have taken the extra step of investing just over £2m each for a collective stake of just under 10 per cent in a new company which will look after the Premiership’s commercial activity.

CVC will run this company, in which they have a 91 per cent cent share, and into which 27 per cent of the Premiership’s revenue – currently estimated at £60m a year – will flow up to a ratchet figure likely to be somewhere between £70m and £90m, at which point the share becomes 50 per cent.


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550


Posted By: Tim Opolis
Date Posted: 12 May 2020 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a
British League?



It's worth noting that the English teams signed a deal that sees CVC have a 91% stake in the company that looks after Premiirship rugby's commercial activity - that means that whatever CVBC want to happen commercial wise - will happen.

Quote All the clubs – the 12 currently in the Premiership plus Championship leaders London Irish – have now received their cash windfall from CVC of £13.5m each, with £25m retained to administer and promote the new set-up. i understands 10 of the 13 clubs have taken the extra step of investing just over £2m each for a collective stake of just under 10 per cent in a new company which will look after the Premiership’s commercial activity.

CVC will run this company, in which they have a 91 per cent cent share, and into which 27 per cent of the Premiership’s revenue – currently estimated at £60m a year – will flow up to a ratchet figure likely to be somewhere between £70m and £90m, at which point the share becomes 50 per cent.


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550


Thanks for this.

I thought that CVC have control of Commercial activities, marketing, TV deals etc. I cant see that they have control of the Premiership clubs themsleves. Surely the clubs themselves have kept control on which league they play in? CVC came in and took control of the Commercial arm of the Premiership.

That's my understanding of it.


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Tymor nesa Duw, plis tymor nesa.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 14 May 2020 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a
British League?



It's worth noting that the English teams signed a deal that sees CVC have a 91% stake in the company that looks after Premiirship rugby's commercial activity - that means that whatever CVBC want to happen commercial wise - will happen.

Quote All the clubs – the 12 currently in the Premiership plus Championship leaders London Irish – have now received their cash windfall from CVC of £13.5m each, with £25m retained to administer and promote the new set-up. i understands 10 of the 13 clubs have taken the extra step of investing just over £2m each for a collective stake of just under 10 per cent in a new company which will look after the Premiership’s commercial activity.

CVC will run this company, in which they have a 91 per cent cent share, and into which 27 per cent of the Premiership’s revenue – currently estimated at £60m a year – will flow up to a ratchet figure likely to be somewhere between £70m and £90m, at which point the share becomes 50 per cent.


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550


Thanks for this.

I thought that CVC have control of Commercial activities, marketing, TV deals etc. I cant see that they have control of the Premiership clubs themsleves. Surely the clubs themselves have kept control on which league they play in? CVC came in and took control of the Commercial arm of the Premiership.

That's my understanding of it.


No, they don't have control of the clubs. They effectively have a large control of the English tournament and it's commercial activities, and will have a large control of the pro 14 and the six nations. So make of that what you will.


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 14 May 2020 at 12:29pm
would it be such a bad thing if pro sport such as rugby and espeacially football took a hit and returned to a more realistic affordabilty level?? I am not against sportspeople earning a living before people attack that point I did okay out of it myself for a while. But as football is finding with clubs potentially going to the wall with sky money not coming in and rugby being the same it has shown what we all know in that clubs survivial is on a balancing wire constantly and one nudge and your into oblivion, made worse every year as another club gets a bigger backer and raises the cost of everything to everyone which means bigger debts and a more precarious position. I know people will say the quality wil drop but will it? will we miss gargantuan players smashing through defences or will we see skill and natural talent rule? injuries wouldnt be so prevalent or life changing as body sizes would inevitably drop, lower club rugby could see a resurgence of numbers as (this is a case in the south east of England where I now live old clubs who normally would have 2 or 3 teams plus vets now down to one)
I know it wont happen but just putting it out there would it be such a bad thing?


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 14 May 2020 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

would it be such a bad thing if pro sport such as rugby and espeacially football took a hit and returned to a more realistic affordabilty level??


I don't understand why you would advocate that.

If you inject less money into a professional sport, what benefits do you expect to see?

It would mean fewer quality players. A decline in rugby standards. Fewer spectators. A downturn in turnover, ticket sales and broadcast revenue, which would mean the quality of affordable players declines even further, and we go round in an endless loop until the sport implodes on itself.

Professional sport is rarely profitable for clubs / tebams. That's never going to change.


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 14 May 2020 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

would it be such a bad thing if pro sport such as rugby and espeacially football took a hit and returned to a more realistic affordabilty level?? I am not against sportspeople earning a living before people attack that point I did okay out of it myself for a while. But as football is finding with clubs potentially going to the wall with sky money not coming in and rugby being the same it has shown what we all know in that clubs survivial is on a balancing wire constantly and one nudge and your into oblivion, made worse every year as another club gets a bigger backer and raises the cost of everything to everyone which means bigger debts and a more precarious position. I know people will say the quality wil drop but will it? will we miss gargantuan players smashing through defences or will we see skill and natural talent rule? injuries wouldnt be so prevalent or life changing as body sizes would inevitably drop, lower club rugby could see a resurgence of numbers as (this is a case in the south east of England where I now live old clubs who normally would have 2 or 3 teams plus vets now down to one)
I know it wont happen but just putting it out there would it be such a bad thing?
Yes. Awful and permanently damaging 


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We're still still here!


Posted By: henry_winkler
Date Posted: 14 May 2020 at 8:29pm
I would love to go back to clubs, if CVC said they'd fund an 8 team Welsh Prem it be amazing. But they're not. 

Without big money it won't happen.

The very best we can hope for is an Anglo-Welsh, failing that a British league.

Worse case scenario we stay as is or disappear, probably both.


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.

Covid 19 doesnt care about them.

If the premiership in football are losing hundreds of millions in money from signed agreements, the pro 14s agreements are certainly also vulnerable.

How can we ever get a league with travel to Italy and South africa viable in this current global climate?

Whilst I agree a welsh domestic league wouldnt be the solution, its the perfect time to revamp both the english and welsh domestic game.

The fact Brad moar only used the word club multiple times in his goodbye speech is reflective of where and how the club sees itself moving forward.

Regions are dead.

Long live this wonderful illustrious club of ours.


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Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.

Covid 19 doesnt care about them.

If the premiership in football are losing hundreds of millions in money from signed agreements, the pro 14s agreements are certainly also vulnerable.

How can we ever get a league with travel to Italy and South africa viable in this current global climate?

Whilst I agree a welsh domestic league wouldnt be the solution, its the perfect time to revamp both the english and welsh domestic game.

The fact Brad moar only used the word club multiple times in his goodbye speech is reflective of where and how the club sees itself moving forward.

Regions are dead.

Long live this wonderful illustrious club of ours.
can't for the life of me see the point of having them in the league


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30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.


Posted By: PE SA
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 11:39am
South Africa results wise on the pitch... Cheetahs doing well IMO, but south Africa have a huge market. CVC wouldn't have come in without identifying that. This has been stated by Nigel Short. South African Market is a huge interest for CVC. What people seem to forget is that Pro14 is easier to set up as a global  tournament. World Club Championship. Something CVC have mentioned as a long term plan.
Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, South Africa already in unison under one league. They already own a large percentage of the English premiership and are in advanced negotiations with NZRU and South Africa... Further super rugby sides coming in from South Africa has already been a topic and even south African players starting to say that it would be better for them all to join the Pro14. Then let's not forget the talks of a team in Toronto and in America.
IMO its a matter of when not if...there will be huge changes in small steps with CVC. They will get the sport marketed properly for the first time ever. 


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.

Covid 19 doesnt care about them.

If the premiership in football are losing hundreds of millions in money from signed agreements, the pro 14s agreements are certainly also vulnerable.

How can we ever get a league with travel to Italy and South africa viable in this current global climate?

Whilst I agree a welsh domestic league wouldnt be the solution, its the perfect time to revamp both the english and welsh domestic game.

The fact Brad moar only used the word club multiple times in his goodbye speech is reflective of where and how the club sees itself moving forward.

Regions are dead.

Long live this wonderful illustrious club of ours.
can't for the life of me see the point of having them in the league
Their inclusion was worth £500k per year to every club. That was the only point.


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We're still still here!


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Tim Opolis Tim Opolis wrote:

Why on Earth would the English scrap everything they have, which doesnt involve any foreign travel btw, they have shown no appetite for a
British League?



It's worth noting that the English teams signed a deal that sees CVC have a 91% stake in the company that looks after Premiirship rugby's commercial activity - that means that whatever CVBC want to happen commercial wise - will happen.

Quote All the clubs – the 12 currently in the Premiership plus Championship leaders London Irish – have now received their cash windfall from CVC of £13.5m each, with £25m retained to administer and promote the new set-up. i understands 10 of the 13 clubs have taken the extra step of investing just over £2m each for a collective stake of just under 10 per cent in a new company which will look after the Premiership’s commercial activity.

CVC will run this company, in which they have a 91 per cent cent share, and into which 27 per cent of the Premiership’s revenue – currently estimated at £60m a year – will flow up to a ratchet figure likely to be somewhere between £70m and £90m, at which point the share becomes 50 per cent.


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-cvc-television-rights-amazon-dazn-netflix-503550


Thanks for this.

I thought that CVC have control of Commercial activities, marketing, TV deals etc. I cant see that they have control of the Premiership clubs themsleves. Surely the clubs themselves have kept control on which league they play in? CVC came in and took control of the Commercial arm of the Premiership.

That's my understanding of it.

To have control of the clubs they would have had to buy out each controlling stake in each one. AFAIK they have bought the controlling stake of the competitions in which they play and have done so in all the other competitions, so they do have the options of creating new competitions.


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Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 16 May 2020 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

South Africa results wise on the pitch... Cheetahs doing well IMO, but south Africa have a huge market. CVC wouldn't have come in without identifying that. This has been stated by Nigel Short. South African Market is a huge interest for CVC. What people seem to forget is that Pro14 is easier to set up as a global  tournament. World Club Championship. Something CVC have mentioned as a long term plan.
Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, South Africa already in unison under one league. They already own a large percentage of the English premiership and are in advanced negotiations with NZRU and South Africa... Further super rugby sides coming in from South Africa has already been a topic and even south African players starting to say that it would be better for them all to join the Pro14. Then let's not forget the talks of a team in Toronto and in America.
IMO its a matter of when not if...there will be huge changes in small steps with CVC. They will get the sport marketed properly for the first time ever. 

Yes, agreed, long term, but short term under the current global situation? The only way I see a South African participation working is if it is european based in maybe london, where many of their fanbase are. 


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Posted By: cymraes
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 9:29am
I'd love to see a British League, return of bigger gates and more funding and I think there is support in the top English clubs. The problem will be getting the turkeys to vote for Christmas as I believe the founding clubs own a stake in the Premiership. Possibly a two division structure with promotion and relegation? 
There's no way all four Welsh regions will get in to the top tier, or even the league at all, and the WRU might try again for two regions, east and west. We might get two teams in each division in which case it's essential that we remain at the top of the domestic game so that we're in pole position if such an arrangement comes about.
Ymlaen!   


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 9:38am
If a British & Irish league was introduced as of last season we could have something along the following lines with two divisions with two up two down format.

Division 1.                                             Division 2
Exeter                                                   Saracens
Sale                                                      Newcastle
Bristol                                                   Worcester
Bath                                                      Leicester
Northampton                                          London Irish
Wasps                                                    Gloucester
Leinster                                                  Harlequins
Edinburgh                                               Dragons
Glasgow                                                  Ospreys 
Munster                                                   Blues
Scarlets                                                   Connacht 
Ulster                                                      Ealing/Nottingham/Jersey



Posted By: Legendinmybathroom
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 11:10am
The WOL are suggesting that there are talks of English Premiership players being asked to take a 25% pay cut moving forward, not just during the current lockdown.  That suggests that the clubs are all struggling with the wages they are paying and feel that it’s not sustaining and see this as a chance for a clean start.
This makes interesting reading and I see this as an opportunity to look into the possibilities of a British or just an Anglo Welsh league.  However, as I’ve said already, it has to be done fairly with welsh regions (or clubs?) being well represented from a playing point of view.  I don’t want to see us(all regions) being dictated to by the English, I’ve had enough of the Pro 14 being biased towards the Irish provinces.


Posted By: supertaf
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

B and i lge makes too much sense not too happen. If not cvc wouldn’t invest if we back to clubs pro rugby is dead in wales

Can't ever see a return to club structure in Wales - regions or nothing. 

I think people have taken Jiffy a little out of context.

If the Pro14 cannot function because of all the cross border travelling for 12 months, what should the players do? Go on loan, just train OR play for the clubs (as the All blacks players do during their club season on occasions)?

The option wasnt meant to be a permanent solution, just a way to keep players match fit while they may not have a league to play in.

I dont know why do many have jumped down his throat, what options can you offer IF the Pro 14 cannot function for 12 months?


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Scarlets - Suppliers of fine rugby since 1872


Posted By: Wasp
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

B and i lge makes too much sense not too happen. If not cvc wouldn’t invest if we back to clubs pro rugby is dead in wales

Can't ever see a return to club structure in Wales - regions or nothing. 

I think people have taken Jiffy a little out of context.

If the Pro14 cannot function because of all the cross border travelling for 12 months, what should the players do? Go on loan, just train OR play for the clubs (as the All blacks players do during their club season on occasions)?

The option wasnt meant to be a permanent solution, just a way to keep players match fit while they may not have a league to play in.

I dont know why do many have jumped down his throat, what options can you offer IF the Pro 14 cannot function for 12 months?
Bankruptcy


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We're still still here!


Posted By: Speedy
Date Posted: 18 May 2020 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

Originally posted by Rob Hunt Rob Hunt wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

I don't think there's ever been a better opportunity for an anglo welsh league.
I suspect that the WRU is tied into  binding agreements with the other unions involved with the Pro 14, so unfortunately I can’t see it happening.

Covid 19 doesnt care about them.

If the premiership in football are losing hundreds of millions in money from signed agreements, the pro 14s agreements are certainly also vulnerable.

How can we ever get a league with travel to Italy and South africa viable in this current global climate?

Whilst I agree a welsh domestic league wouldnt be the solution, its the perfect time to revamp both the english and welsh domestic game.

The fact Brad moar only used the word club multiple times in his goodbye speech is reflective of where and how the club sees itself moving forward.

Regions are dead.

Long live this wonderful illustrious club of ours.
can't for the life of me see the point of having them in the league
They gave every club a fair whack for entering.

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Posted By: supertaf
Date Posted: 19 May 2020 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Wasp Wasp wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

B and i lge makes too much sense not too happen. If not cvc wouldn’t invest if we back to clubs pro rugby is dead in wales

Can't ever see a return to club structure in Wales - regions or nothing. 

I think people have taken Jiffy a little out of context.

If the Pro14 cannot function because of all the cross border travelling for 12 months, what should the players do? Go on loan, just train OR play for the clubs (as the All blacks players do during their club season on occasions)?

The option wasnt meant to be a permanent solution, just a way to keep players match fit while they may not have a league to play in.

I dont know why do many have jumped down his throat, what options can you offer IF the Pro 14 cannot function for 12 months?
Bankruptcy
Beautiful throwaway comment.


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Scarlets - Suppliers of fine rugby since 1872


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 19 May 2020 at 1:01pm
I doubt well see a pro 14 again tbh
A round robin of welsh regional games is likely the only rugby well get in the next 6 months
 
Along with international games
 
We don't seem to have any idea of a return to contact training let alone playing any games
 
 
 



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