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Pro 14 officiating

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    Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:22am
Anybody seen those comments by Pro14 rugby chief Greg Garner about the non Cardiff try in Connacht? They're pretty astounding to say the least. Garner blames the weather, 'confusion in the van', and the Irish TMO not being supplied with the correct footage.

Unbelievable stuff.

The league is a joke

Quote Q: But what would you then say about an incident like the disallowing of Jason Harries’ try for Cardiff Blues against Connacht last month?

A: Look, to be perfectly blunt, the decision was wrong.

It was a try. We, as a tournament, got that wrong.

It’s very easy for people to see that on TV and go ‘We can all see that is a try, how can the officials not get that right?’

I spent most of last week going through the question why we got that wrong.

What we found is it wasn’t actually one individual’s fault or one thing, it was just a culmination of different things that happened on the day.

For a start, there was the weather. I’m not trying to make excuses here, but the weather meant the big TV screen at the ground couldn’t get raised to its full height for health and safety reasons.

We have then got the officials trying to look at the screen, where it’s behind the crowd and they couldn’t see it clearly.

There weren’t monitors at the side of the pitch, which we will look to rectify moving forward for the future.

There was a bit of confusion in the van. I’m not sure the TMO viewed the real killer footage.

With the sideline view and the two end-on views he saw, the footage was inconclusive.

He then asked the broadcasters if they had any additional angles to show him and they said no, which they hadn’t.

But there was some high definition footage which showed it was clearly a try, For whatever reason, the TMO didn’t see that footage.

I don’t think that was anybody’s fault because it was there for the broadcasters.

The conclusive view which would have delivered the right decision wasn’t available to the TMO.

Unfortunately, we did get it wrong.

It’s now a question of working with the match officials, broadcasters and the grounds to make sure that never happens again.


Trouble is Greg, it's been happening for 15 years out there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:29am
Two key words in your post Kid A.... Irish TMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:55am

trevisos try against us out there which was never a try, he said the TMO didn't have the angle that showed it was clearly not a try...even though the big screen the ref was looking at was same angle as what we were seeing!!! mad stuff. it really is the a huge reason why the league is a joke.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 11:15am
This is pretty appalling

Especially as Premier Sports is a Dublin based company, with undoubtedly commercial interests in having 4 Irish provinces in the QFs and SFs of the Pro14.

How the 'Irish TMO' is the only person without the right angle smacks of BS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 11:31am
I've said it countless times the way to go is pool all the officials from the 3 major domestic leagues & have them officiate cross boarder. This will remove the need for 'home' officials & should mean that there is less issues when we come to play in Europe as the referees will be using their interpretation week in week out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 12:02pm
This is the incident. The TMO told the referee that the ball was touched down at exactly the same moment as the winger's hand went into touch.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

I've said it countless times the way to go is pool all the officials from the 3 major domestic leagues & have them officiate cross boarder. This will remove the need for 'home' officials & should mean that there is less issues when we come to play in Europe as the referees will be using their interpretation week in week out.


But if you were in charge of the Top 14 or English Premiership, why would you want your teams to be reffed by sub standard officials like George Clancy and John Lacey etc?

There is also the cost factor.

In that article, Greg Garner says they can't find enough TMOs to have neutrality.

But somehow they managed it 3 years ago:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-introduce-neutral-television-11789218
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 1:10pm
Honesty about it not count for anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Honesty about it not count for anything?


If you think he's being honest yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Two key words in your post Kid A.... Irish TMO.

You know, I really don't think that the TMOs are the problem in Ireland (on most occasions) - I have bored on for years on this forum about how the TV companies/producers/directors in Ireland collude with the home teams, in:

1. often NOT showing the TMO the best angle to make a judgement, so that the angles given to the TMO favour the home team, and 

2. showing endless replays on big screens of supposed foul play by the away team, even if there is absolutely nothing in it - which gets the crowd baying (they often don't know the laws) and most certainly influences some of the refs. Predictably enough, when there is dirty play by the home team (as with Barclay being KO'd in Ulster) the incriminating footage is strangely not available to the TMO - though it most certainly exists, and tends to appear after the game is over.

Point 1 is backed up by this quote from Greg Garner (above):

"There was a bit of confusion in the van. I’m not sure the TMO viewed the real killer footage.

With the sideline view and the two end-on views he saw, the footage was inconclusive.

He then asked the broadcasters if they had any additional angles to show him and they said no, which they hadn’t.

But there was some high definition footage which showed it was clearly a try, For whatever reason, the TMO didn’t see that footage."

"Confusion in the van', eh?

I think that should become a 'saying' along the lines of "I was being economical with the truth!'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

This is the incident. The TMO told the referee that the ball was touched down at exactly the same moment as the winger's hand went into touch.




Although I blame most of the errors in Ireland on the 'confusion in the van' scenario (see above), this is clearly a mistake by the TMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Honesty about it not count for anything?


If you think he's being honest yes.


About the competence (lack of it) yes I think he was...

I'm not suggesting telling the truth is ground breaking or anything, but to get it right you have to first accept you've had it wrong to date.
It also helps promote a bit of belief if you present that humility in the public domain in my view.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Honesty about it not count for anything?


If you think he's being honest yes.


About the competence (lack of it) yes I think he was...

I'm not suggesting telling the truth is ground breaking or anything, but to get it right you have to first accept you've had it wrong to date.
It also helps promote a bit of belief if you present that humility in the public domain in my view.



I really don't think he could have tried to claim that decision was anything other than completely wrong. He would have been castigated for it.

I appreciate him speaking to the press, we've learned a few things. But one of them is the absolute shambolic, amateur way in which the league is still being run.

My personal opinion is that nothing has changed in this area since the dark days of puzzling decisions at Ravenhill. It doesn't help, as is the case time and time again, that the Irish officials work for the same people as the Irish players of course. There's a vested interest in getting their colleagues wins.

Genuine question: Are there corresponding examples where Welsh TMOs have given the 4 regions similar huge decisions, that are clearly 100% wrong? Are we (me) just whinging at normal rugby decisions that happen once in a while? Does it just look a bit worse because the TMO was the same nationality as the team that benefited?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 2:36pm
I think Welsh TMOs have made mistakes (as I'm sure have Scottish and Italian TMOs), but there does seem to be a systematic method of 'confusion in the van' in Ireland!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

trevisos try against us out there which was never a try, he said the TMO didn't have the angle that showed it was clearly not a try...even though the big screen the ref was looking at was same angle as what we were seeing!!! mad stuff. it really is the a huge reason why the league is a joke.


The telling angle there was from the camera placed on half way in the stand. The footage was not shown from that angle when the try was being reviewed. 

However, fast forward post conversion when our players were running to the half way for the restart, and 'Hey presto', the angle from half way was shown on my telly screen, don't know about anyone else's, and Halafihi clearly DID NOT release the ball, got back on to his knees, NOT back on his feet, and drove forward for the line. 

Why wasn't the TMO shown that angle ? 

Additionally at the CRYS16 meeting when Greg Garner was with us a few weeks ago, I watched a re-run of that incident with Dan Jones and what I described earlier was shown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Honesty about it not count for anything?


If you think he's being honest yes.


About the competence (lack of it) yes I think he was...

I'm not suggesting telling the truth is ground breaking or anything, but to get it right you have to first accept you've had it wrong to date.
It also helps promote a bit of belief if you present that humility in the public domain in my view.



I really don't think he could have tried to claim that decision was anything other than completely wrong. He would have been castigated for it.

I appreciate him speaking to the press, we've learned a few things. But one of them is the absolute shambolic, amateur way in which the league is still being run.

My personal opinion is that nothing has changed in this area since the dark days of puzzling decisions at Ravenhill. It doesn't help, as is the case time and time again, that the Irish officials work for the same people as the Irish players of course. There's a vested interest in getting their colleagues wins.

Genuine question: Are there corresponding examples where Welsh TMOs have given the 4 regions similar huge decisions, that are clearly 100% wrong? Are we (me) just whinging at normal rugby decisions that happen once in a while? Does it just look a bit worse because the TMO was the same nationality as the team that benefited?



Simple answer is that I don’t think we put ourselves under the same scrutiny. I’m sure a cross section of Connacht fans would argue to death that it wasn’t a try or at best put it in to the ‘ swings and roundabouts ‘ box.

But where than can be no two ways about your point is this...a full compliment of officials, or a ref and TMO, from the same country as team playing a match in that same country, is a hopelessly outdated model.

Most, if not all, major sports that require detailed adjudication of a key moment have immunised themselves from the obvious allegations of bias or unfair play by appointing neutral referees and video adjudicators.

Union is light years behind.
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