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Pro 14 officiating

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ap sior View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Honesty about it not count for anything?


If you think he's being honest yes.


About the competence (lack of it) yes I think he was...

I'm not suggesting telling the truth is ground breaking or anything, but to get it right you have to first accept you've had it wrong to date.
It also helps promote a bit of belief if you present that humility in the public domain in my view.



I really don't think he could have tried to claim that decision was anything other than completely wrong. He would have been castigated for it.

I appreciate him speaking to the press, we've learned a few things. But one of them is the absolute shambolic, amateur way in which the league is still being run.

My personal opinion is that nothing has changed in this area since the dark days of puzzling decisions at Ravenhill. It doesn't help, as is the case time and time again, that the Irish officials work for the same people as the Irish players of course. There's a vested interest in getting their colleagues wins.

Genuine question: Are there corresponding examples where Welsh TMOs have given the 4 regions similar huge decisions, that are clearly 100% wrong? Are we (me) just whinging at normal rugby decisions that happen once in a while? Does it just look a bit worse because the TMO was the same nationality as the team that benefited?



Simple answer is that I don’t think we put ourselves under the same scrutiny. I’m sure a cross section of Connacht fans would argue to death that it wasn’t a try or at best put it in to the ‘ swings and roundabouts ‘ box.

But where than can be no two ways about your point is this...a full compliment of officials, or a ref and TMO, from the same country as team playing a match in that same country, is a hopelessly outdated model.

Most, if not all, major sports that require detailed adjudication of a key moment have immunised themselves from the obvious allegations of bias or unfair play by appointing neutral referees and video adjudicators.

Union is light years behind.

I agree entirely with your point. However, as we saw at Twickers last year, neutral TMO's can clearly get it wrong. As we saw at the Principality in November, neutral TMO's can clearly get it wrong with the tackle on Halfpenny. 

Neutrality is one issue, so how do you get over an obvious human error ? Do we need a 'panel' of say 3, where one has a casting vote ?

Ultimately what you want is a correct decision.


Edited by ap sior - 26 April 2019 at 3:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 4:01pm
One thing I would like to see is the question that the on field official asks the TMO is "Was a try scored?"

Too many times a try has been awarded without grounding being seen because the official has said "is there any reason I cannot award the try".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 April 2019 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I would like to see is the question that the on field official asks the TMO is "Was a try scored?"

Too many times a try has been awarded without grounding being seen because the official has said "is there any reason I cannot award the try".

Totally agree. It's a loaded question. The refs colleague knows then to try and find a reason to agree with his mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2019 at 10:06am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I would like to see is the question that the on field official asks the TMO is "Was a try scored?"

Too many times a try has been awarded without grounding being seen because the official has said "is there any reason I cannot award the try".

Totally agree. It's a loaded question. The refs colleague knows then to try and find a reason to agree with his mate.

I agree that the question must be consistent.

However, if the referee has any suspicions about crossing/obstruction/forward pass, then he must make his suspicions clear to the TMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2019 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I would like to see is the question that the on field official asks the TMO is "Was a try scored?"

Too many times a try has been awarded without grounding being seen because the official has said "is there any reason I cannot award the try".
With the question in bold; usually the ref has seen the grounding and just wants the TMO to check if there is anything he's missed. The TMO isn't required to check the grounding in this case.
That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:09pm
For me I would like to see put a stop to players requesting the ref to engage the tmo and stop any replays in the stadiums, just incites fans to dig into the ref who has a hard enough job as it is. If the TMO sees something he can bring it up with the ref 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I would like to see is the question that the on field official asks the TMO is "Was a try scored?"

Too many times a try has been awarded without grounding being seen because the official has said "is there any reason I cannot award the try".
With the question in bold; usually the ref has seen the grounding and just wants the TMO to check if there is anything he's missed. The TMO isn't required to check the grounding in this case.


A simple "Try, yes or no" should be what is asked.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

For me I would like to see put a stop to players requesting the ref to engage the tmo and stop any replays in the stadiums, just incites fans to dig into the ref who has a hard enough job as it is. If the TMO sees something he can bring it up with the ref 


The ref watches the replays though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

For me I would like to see put a stop to players requesting the ref to engage the tmo and stop any replays in the stadiums, just incites fans to dig into the ref who has a hard enough job as it is. If the TMO sees something he can bring it up with the ref 


The ref watches the replays though.

Sorry what I mean is the if the tmo sees something show the replay, I don't like the fact that you stop for a scrum and you get 6 replays of something a local tv editor thinks is a penalty and replays it constantly to insight the crowd into getting the refs attention.

But when the shoe is on the other foot they suddenly can't find the angles. What happened to the Hawkeye trial a few years back? is that still in action  ???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

For me I would like to see put a stop to players requesting the ref to engage the tmo and stop any replays in the stadiums, just incites fans to dig into the ref who has a hard enough job as it is. If the TMO sees something he can bring it up with the ref 


The ref watches the replays though.


Sorry what I mean is the if the tmo sees something show the replay, I don't like the fact that you stop for a scrum and you get 6 replays of something a local tv editor thinks is a penalty and replays it constantly to insight the crowd into getting the refs attention.

But when the shoe is on the other foot they suddenly can't find the angles. What happened to the Hawkeye trial a few years back? is that still in action  ???


I suppose the stadium could blank the displays while the TMO is checking. Personally, at Y Parc I'd be miffed if they did that as I want to see what the TMO is seeing. Plus the club paid £250k for the screen!

I think I read something about a Hawkeye trial coming next year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:26pm
I'sure I saw a game last year where they were showing the tmo with about 15 screens around him and all the tech to run through multiple angles and slow mo's unless that was a one off to show what could be done.

This is the thing, down at the parc you do see what the tmo is seeing and if the tmo has intervened fair enough, its the speculative replays where everyone has got on with the game that wreck me, slows the game down too much for me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

I'sure I saw a game last year where they were showing the tmo with about 15 screens around him and all the tech to run through multiple angles and slow mo's unless that was a one off to show what could be done.

This is the thing, down at the parc you do see what the tmo is seeing and if the tmo has intervened fair enough, its the speculative replays where everyone has got on with the game that wreck me, slows the game down too much for me. 


But often, it's the tv coverage that is screened on the big screens. Whatever the TV coverage is showing - the fans see. And the broadcasters obviously want to see replays from all angles to make their coverage better.

I don't have a problem with it - if it means more correct decisions are made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2019 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

For me I would like to see put a stop to players requesting the ref to engage the tmo and stop any replays in the stadiums, just incites fans to dig into the ref who has a hard enough job as it is. If the TMO sees something he can bring it up with the ref 


The ref watches the replays though.

Sorry what I mean is the if the tmo sees something show the replay, I don't like the fact that you stop for a scrum and you get 6 replays of something a local tv editor thinks is a penalty and replays it constantly to insight the crowd into getting the refs attention.

But when the shoe is on the other foot they suddenly can't find the angles. What happened to the Hawkeye trial a few years back? is that still in action  ???

This seems to be a particular problem in Ulster, where the TV guys and the region are in each other's pockets by the look of things.

There should be a total ban on replaying anything on the big screen (except tries) unless it has been requested by the ref or TMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2020 at 5:42pm
Slightly old news, but Greg Garner reckons PRO14 refereeing has improved this season.

They now ask coaches to rate the refs out of 10 for key aspects of each game: "breakdown (fair contest/quick ball), scrum (fair contest/positive outcomes), line-out/maul (fair contest/positive outcomes), space (room to play in) and foul play (player safety)". Sensible stuff. Would like to see Cockers' replies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Slightly old news, but Greg Garner reckons PRO14 refereeing has improved this season.

They now ask coaches to rate the refs out of 10 for key aspects of each game: "breakdown (fair contest/quick ball), scrum (fair contest/positive outcomes), line-out/maul (fair contest/positive outcomes), space (room to play in) and foul play (player safety)". Sensible stuff. Would like to see Cockers' replies.


That's my impression too, FWIW. 

One thing that hasn't changed is the hand-in glove relationship between Irish TV and Irish rugby (whether north or south of the border)... I noticed in coverage of Ireland v Scotland that incidents that could favour Ireland were replayed on the big screen, whereas at least one incident that would favour Scotland was ignored completely.

Plus ca change...
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