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Pro 14 officiating

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Jones2004 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Slightly old news, but Greg Garner reckons PRO14 refereeing has improved this season.

They now ask coaches to rate the refs out of 10 for key aspects of each game: "breakdown (fair contest/quick ball), scrum (fair contest/positive outcomes), line-out/maul (fair contest/positive outcomes), space (room to play in) and foul play (player safety)". Sensible stuff. Would like to see Cockers' replies.


That's my impression too, FWIW. 

One thing that hasn't changed is the hand-in glove relationship between Irish TV and Irish rugby (whether north or south of the border)... I noticed in coverage of Ireland v Scotland that incidents that could favour Ireland were replayed on the big screen, whereas at least one incident that would favour Scotland was ignored completely.

Plus ca change...
The French are equally as bad if not worse for that, however in fairness to the officials what’s shown on the screens is completely in the hands of the TV director who wants his country to win. That’s why it’s important for the TMO to notice these things and make his own decision whether it’s worth reviewing or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 2:51pm
One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Slightly old news, but Greg Garner reckons PRO14 refereeing has improved this season.

They now ask coaches to rate the refs out of 10 for key aspects of each game: "breakdown (fair contest/quick ball), scrum (fair contest/positive outcomes), line-out/maul (fair contest/positive outcomes), space (room to play in) and foul play (player safety)". Sensible stuff. Would like to see Cockers' replies.


That's my impression too, FWIW. 

One thing that hasn't changed is the hand-in glove relationship between Irish TV and Irish rugby (whether north or south of the border)... I noticed in coverage of Ireland v Scotland that incidents that could favour Ireland were replayed on the big screen, whereas at least one incident that would favour Scotland was ignored completely.

Plus ca change...
The French are equally as bad if not worse for that, however in fairness to the officials what’s shown on the screens is completely in the hands of the TV director who wants his country to win. That’s why it’s important for the TMO to notice these things and make his own decision whether it’s worth reviewing or not.

I haven't noticed this 'tendency' with French TV... we play Irish teams so often (in the pro-14 as well as the 6N), and it is so blatant and persistent, I'm amazed and disappointed that the appropriate authorities haven't cracked down on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.


It's not ok in Division 3 West I can tell you LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.
I think that underlines the difference between Mathieu Raynal and Luke Pearce.

Pearce did well at the World Cup. Raynal had a much more difficult match to referee and managed to upset both sides for things that weren’t consistent, just equally random. I think he understands the game less and how important it is to make people play properly.

Pearce has much more idea of the latter and the confidence to set the standards for a good game.


Edited by Eastern outpost - 04 February 2020 at 5:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.
I think that underlines the difference between Mathieu Raynal and Luke Pearce.

Pearce did well at the World Cup. Raynal had a much more difficult match to referee and managed to upset both sides for things that weren’t consistent, just equally random. I think he understands the game less and how important it is to make people play properly.

Pearce has much more idea of the latter and the confidence to set the standards for a good game.
While I’d normally agree with you there EO I thought that Pearce had a very poor game on Saturday. The scrums were an absolute mess and while his communication is normally exemplary I thought it was sub-standard on Saturday, which contributed to the mess at the breakdown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.
I think that underlines the difference between Mathieu Raynal and Luke Pearce.

Pearce did well at the World Cup. Raynal had a much more difficult match to referee and managed to upset both sides for things that weren’t consistent, just equally random. I think he understands the game less and how important it is to make people play properly.

Pearce has much more idea of the latter and the confidence to set the standards for a good game.
While I’d normally agree with you there EO I thought that Pearce had a very poor game on Saturday. The scrums were an absolute mess and while his communication is normally exemplary I thought it was sub-standard on Saturday, which contributed to the mess at the breakdown.
Maybe I’m thinking more generally about the two refs, rather than the specifics of (some aspects of) Saturday’s matches.

Raynal never seems to be that self-confident, whereas Pearce does. Raynal’s personality on the pitch comes across as much more introvert compared to Pearce.

A few years ago, Pearce was all personality but little by way of man management or backbone for enforcing sanctions. He’s worked his way from there to a much higher level now, witness his praise from the World Cup performances, which were pleasantly surprising.

Even if your own performance in a game might not be going swimmingly, you do get incidents where your sub-conscious takes you straight to the correct decision.

To me, his reaction to Webb trying to buy a penalty by doing something that would never have reached a teammate was 🎯 whereas Raynal’s indulgence of Murray encouraged all the bad things in the game.

Further encouraging bad behaviour was the mugging of Adam Hastings after calling for a mark in the 22 on a penalty advantage. Despite being mugged very late by two players, the penalty wasn’t reversed.

It’s so discouraging to the caring viewer that such behaviour is not properly controlled and severely discouraged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2020 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

One thing I noticed (I know it's not Pro 14 but hey ho) was that Connor Murray won a penalty when he passed the ball into a retreating Scottish player. Rhys Webb did something very similar when he came on & was told "play on, you knew what you were doing".

Yes, that was ridiculous - Murray could easily have missed the Scottish player - he deliberately threw the ball against him.

Refs need to be consistent - is it OK to 'milk' a penalty like this, or isn't it? At least, then we'd all know what to do.
I think that underlines the difference between Mathieu Raynal and Luke Pearce.

Pearce did well at the World Cup. Raynal had a much more difficult match to referee and managed to upset both sides for things that weren’t consistent, just equally random. I think he understands the game less and how important it is to make people play properly.

Pearce has much more idea of the latter and the confidence to set the standards for a good game.
While I’d normally agree with you there EO I thought that Pearce had a very poor game on Saturday. The scrums were an absolute mess and while his communication is normally exemplary I thought it was sub-standard on Saturday, which contributed to the mess at the breakdown.

I agree - the scrums were a mess for much of the game... Pearce wasn't helped by the assistants, but still... he seemed to think the Italians were on top in that phase, on zero evidence. I intend to look at them again, but from today's review of the match I can remember:

first scrum?: Wyn Jones had a free kick against for an early engage - it looked 50:50
later: their TH goes to ground under pressure - nothing given (Pearce was on the other side, so mainly the assistant's fault)
later: their LH comes in at a big angle, the scrum crabs sideways and goes down - Lewis penalised! (this was pretty obvious from the overhead camera).

I actually think that of the incomplete scrums, he was wrong more often than right on Saturday.

A long way from his best game - had me wishing for that headteacher (I think - forget his name) - very fussy but less likely to make those mistakes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote solva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2020 at 8:25am
Quittenton? The man who bought the Andy Haden line out trick ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2020 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by solva solva wrote:

Quittenton? The man who bought the Andy Haden line out trick ?

No - sorry - I checked.

I meant Wayne Barnes, a punctilious and fussy ref (he usually annoys me) but who would probably have got more scrum calls correct - he's a barrister, not a headteacher. He just seems like one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2020 at 10:02am
Is it only in recent years refs have become poor? They were fine years ago weren’t they?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2020 at 11:43am
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Is it only in recent years refs have become poor? They were fine years ago weren’t they?

Pearce can be quite good, but totally misinterpreted the scrums on Saturday:

Pivac will be speaking to Romain Poite, a referee with a reputation for rewarding the dominant scrum, after raising concerns with World Rugby about some of the decisions that went against Wales in the set piece last weekend, when the Pontypool-born official Luke Pearce was in charge. Wales felt they should have had more reward for scrummaging straight, a reason why the front row remain unchanged.

“We have had clarity after sending clips to World Rugby,” Pivac said. “I will speak to the referee and it is important we understand where he is going to come from in the scrum and at the breakdown. We are just asking for a square scrum.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/06/wales-first-start-nick-tompkins-for-six-nations-match-with-ireland-rugby-union

An interesting comment from Wales's coach, don't you think?


(BTW - you always say that refs are praised when 'we' win... don't you think it downright odd that I criticised the reffing of the scrum after a 42-0 win? Just asking...)

In truth, I just want refs to get it right - and certainly quite often, after I watch the video, I can see something I didn't at the game, live... but scrums are a mystery to most (our own Nigel Owens very rarely gets it wrong - he is excellent at scrum reffing). It's pretty frustrating when the ref allows props to bore in at an angle, and then reward that illegal ploy.






Edited by aber-fan - 07 February 2020 at 11:44am
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