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InTheBath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote InTheBath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2014 at 4:10pm
Sam Burgess is a great athlete and in his prime which will certainly help the transition, Farrell might have made the grade if his knee wasn't gone and he was younger.

His short passing game will be decent as is his offoading. There is no reason for him to have a large wide passing game though, the current trend in Union is for a gainline 12 rather than a playmaker and I think he'll do well. His passing will obviously develop over time too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 October 2014 at 4:10pm
he will be a beast of a 12 of that I am sure...as long as he gets time to get used to the differences in the game (unlike Iestyn Harris).
 
Joel Tomkins wasa success and if omkins had stayed in union, Tomkins and Burgess would have been an impressive and powerful and destructive centre pairing.
 
Who says a 12 has to have a kicking game??? Jamie Roberts hasnt got a kicking game. Burgess will be a gainline player and the way England play their game, he is a perfect extra forward style player. ball goes forward through the ball carriers in the pack. Scrum half out to 10, big run from burgess ready for the next phase of forwards. But if he breaks through tackles, he has plenty of pace and power to make serious yards.
 
If he clicks in union, Bath will be begnning a rampage. Whether he lines up at 12 or 13, he will be a crash bang centre and imo a bloody destructive one at that.
 
Many hard players play league - Sam Burgess, Mike McIllorum, John Bateman, Keith Senior, Monaghan, and the past has seen Andy Farrell, Cunningham, could go on and on...all these have played and played in the faces of the opposition with fractured or broken cheekbone, broken toes, ankles, fingers, ribs, their pain threshold are immense, and are really players whos attitude is to be applauded...
 
the union game can learn so much from rugby league on the pitch and off the pitch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2014 at 10:22am
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

he will be a beast of a 12 of that I am sure...as long as he gets time to get used to the differences in the game (unlike Iestyn Harris).
 
Joel Tomkins wasa success and if omkins had stayed in union, Tomkins and Burgess would have been an impressive and powerful and destructive centre pairing.
 
Who says a 12 has to have a kicking game??? Jamie Roberts hasnt got a kicking game. Burgess will be a gainline player and the way England play their game, he is a perfect extra forward style player. ball goes forward through the ball carriers in the pack. Scrum half out to 10, big run from burgess ready for the next phase of forwards. But if he breaks through tackles, he has plenty of pace and power to make serious yards.
 
If he clicks in union, Bath will be begnning a rampage. Whether he lines up at 12 or 13, he will be a crash bang centre and imo a bloody destructive one at that.
 
Many hard players play league - Sam Burgess, Mike McIllorum, John Bateman, Keith Senior, Monaghan, and the past has seen Andy Farrell, Cunningham, could go on and on...all these have played and played in the faces of the opposition with fractured or broken cheekbone, broken toes, ankles, fingers, ribs, their pain threshold are immense, and are really players whos attitude is to be applauded...
 
the union game can learn so much from rugby league on the pitch and off the pitch.


Well, he had 3 England caps and 2 for the Saxons - so not a 'failure', but hardly an outstanding success at Union either. Just a good-ish premiership player, IMO.

In olden times, it was often said by our friends in the North that League players were fitter, faster and stronger than Union ones - and they had a point, as League was pro and Union amateur.

Since Union went pro, only a few League players have made the transition and proved to be outstanding, and some have been downright disappointing. There are many differences between the games, not least in positioning requirements, the tackle area etc., so skills don't always transfer between the codes.

FWIW, Burgess is obviously very strong and young enough to make a go of it (unlike Farrell, as pointed out already). But can England pick him and Tuilagi in the same XV? if they both play centre, will the wings ever get the ball? (Maybe they won't need to?)

I quite fancy the Doc to take him out if he ever plays Wales - I still remember how he finished the Aussie captain a few years ago, then played on for 25 min with his brain dribbling out of his ear!
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2014 at 1:29pm

Youre right there are massive differences in the game, played both and they really more different than what some people think.

But Tomkins IMO was a player that did basic things well especially tackling. A centre partnership of Tomkins and Burgess would have been extremely solid defensively and very direct in attack...ideal for the English game IMO.
 
But anyways, physically there is not much difference anymore in the athletes of union and league, but there does seem to me a certain mental toughness and higher pain threshold with much more league players than in union. There are a few players in union who have played with broken bones etc, but it seems to be more of a thing in league and the attitude and aggression of the sport is something that is slowly disapearing in union i feel. whether its the referees getting softer, too many rules complicating things where as league have kept things simple, play at such speed where the ball is more often than not in the field of play for more or less the 80mins of the game. So they play a far quicker game which really says something about the fitness levels, but you do get the odd game in union where it matches league for speed and aggression....just not as often imo.
 
Anyways back to Burgess, he will be Englands version of Jamie Roberts, Jamie Roberts is one tough cookie...it will be an earthquake im sure when they run into eachother...one thing I am unsure of though is the speed of Roberts compared to Burgess...Burgess seems a lot quicker, but until they are on the pitch against eachother, can't really comment on that but certainly will be interesting between the both. I just feel Burgess will have a slight edge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2014 at 9:50am
I still have my doubts I remember Lesley "the volcano" was going to be the new lomu, the paul boys were going to rip up union etc etc

No one is doubting his size and power but as I said we have yet to see how he can cope in what is a different sport
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2014 at 10:47am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I still have my doubts I remember Lesley "the volcano" was going to be the new lomu, the paul boys were going to rip up union etc etc

No one is doubting his size and power but as I said we have yet to see how he can cope in what is a different sport
true enough, but Sam Burgess is only 25... if he is brought through properly, he is young enough to adgust. Vanikolo was a one trick pony, even in league. Once a player matched him on that. He offered nothing. The Lomu comparrisons came purely based on his size and try scoring record, but whilst playing v the big boys, more often than not, sides like Wigan, Leeds etc all managed to deal with him.
The Paul bros were late coming to the union game and was basically a money move.
Joel Tomkins came and did a very solid job for club and country.
 
Sam Burgess will not only bring an insane amount of strength, big tackling, hard running, he is a very physical, aggressive, fresh version of Jamie Roberts. He has good hands, he has pace, and is always hungry for success. It all boils down to the coaches at Bath, but IMO, if they can make Kyle Eastmond a not too bad centre in union then Sam Burgess will be a massive success...just my opinion.
 
There have been plenty of ones that didnt really live upto their expectation, but there have also been plenty of success stories:
 
Jason Robinson
Brad Thorne
Sonny Bill Williams
Chris Ashton
Berrick Barnes
Matt Rogers
Wendell Sailor
Allan Bateman
Lote Tuiquri
Alan Tait
Israel Folau
Joel Tomkins
Kyle Eastmond
Andy Farrell and more.
 
also...does Owen Farrell count!!!? never played union until Andy Farrell moved his family to London...up until then he was playing rugby league as a kid for Wigan St. Pats until the age of 14.
 
I am pretty certain that Sam Burgess can add himself onto the success story list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2014 at 10:59am
bateman and tait are pushing it a bt aren't they? seeing as they were alredy union caps before they went North :)

Not so sure about Burgess hands , I can't recall him being much of a distributor in league if I'm honest.

Not denying his size power and strength though, the guy is an impressive athlete

Edited by RR1972 - 20 October 2014 at 11:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2014 at 12:59pm
fair enough with tait and bateman! the rest are all proper converts though!
 
as for burgess distribution skills, seen more before his move to NRL where his passing was very good when the bulls used him in that role. Rabbitohs certainly utilised his size and strength alot better than the Bulls but then again, he is older, wiser and tougher now than 4 years ago. He's a good offloader as well but in the English game i doubt he will be doing many of those, especially in his first season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2014 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I still have my doubts I remember Lesley "the volcano" was going to be the new lomu, the paul boys were going to rip up union etc etc

No one is doubting his size and power but as I said we have yet to see how he can cope in what is a different sport
true enough, but Sam Burgess is only 25... if he is brought through properly, he is young enough to adgust. Vanikolo was a one trick pony, even in league. Once a player matched him on that. He offered nothing. The Lomu comparrisons came purely based on his size and try scoring record, but whilst playing v the big boys, more often than not, sides like Wigan, Leeds etc all managed to deal with him.
The Paul bros were late coming to the union game and was basically a money move.
Joel Tomkins came and did a very solid job for club and country.
 
Sam Burgess will not only bring an insane amount of strength, big tackling, hard running, he is a very physical, aggressive, fresh version of Jamie Roberts. He has good hands, he has pace, and is always hungry for success. It all boils down to the coaches at Bath, but IMO, if they can make Kyle Eastmond a not too bad centre in union then Sam Burgess will be a massive success...just my opinion.
 
There have been plenty of ones that didnt really live upto their expectation, but there have also been plenty of success stories:
 
Jason Robinson
Brad Thorne
Sonny Bill Williams
Chris Ashton
Berrick Barnes
Matt Rogers
Wendell Sailor
Allan Bateman
Lote Tuiquri
Alan Tait
Israel Folau
Joel Tomkins
Kyle Eastmond
Andy Farrell and more.
 
also...does Owen Farrell count!!!? never played union until Andy Farrell moved his family to London...up until then he was playing rugby league as a kid for Wigan St. Pats until the age of 14.
 
I am pretty certain that Sam Burgess can add himself onto the success story list.


And of course Northampton's Stephen Myler, who played for St Helens (Academy), Widnes & Salford !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2014 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I still have my doubts I remember Lesley "the volcano" was going to be the new lomu, the paul boys were going to rip up union etc etc

No one is doubting his size and power but as I said we have yet to see how he can cope in what is a different sport
true enough, but Sam Burgess is only 25... if he is brought through properly, he is young enough to adgust. Vanikolo was a one trick pony, even in league. Once a player matched him on that. He offered nothing. The Lomu comparrisons came purely based on his size and try scoring record, but whilst playing v the big boys, more often than not, sides like Wigan, Leeds etc all managed to deal with him.
The Paul bros were late coming to the union game and was basically a money move.
Joel Tomkins came and did a very solid job for club and country.
 
Sam Burgess will not only bring an insane amount of strength, big tackling, hard running, he is a very physical, aggressive, fresh version of Jamie Roberts. He has good hands, he has pace, and is always hungry for success. It all boils down to the coaches at Bath, but IMO, if they can make Kyle Eastmond a not too bad centre in union then Sam Burgess will be a massive success...just my opinion.
 
There have been plenty of ones that didnt really live upto their expectation, but there have also been plenty of success stories:
 
Jason Robinson
Brad Thorne
Sonny Bill Williams
Chris Ashton
Berrick Barnes
Matt Rogers
Wendell Sailor
Allan Bateman
Lote Tuiquri
Alan Tait
Israel Folau
Joel Tomkins
Kyle Eastmond
Andy Farrell and more.
 
also...does Owen Farrell count!!!? never played union until Andy Farrell moved his family to London...up until then he was playing rugby league as a kid for Wigan St. Pats until the age of 14.
 
I am pretty certain that Sam Burgess can add himself onto the success story list.


To the best of my recollection, Bateman and Tait were union players who went to league (and maybe came back?) - so not out and out league players. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

And as a matter of opinion - I can't accept Andy farrell as a 'success' in union. He was too old, and carrying too many injuries, when he switched.

Also, Sailor - an absolutely outstanding league player - never reached the same heights in union, for whatever reason.

So for Burgess - wait and see. Who knows if he'll make it?
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote English Scarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2014 at 11:05pm
Think the plan is for him to start at Centre and move to 6/8 as he learns the game more
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mundoscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2014 at 5:30am
and im not all that with the so called hard as nails league players. more like stupidity in my eyes,if your that badly hurt,is that clever of the physios to let a player with a broken cheekbone play 80 mins? shocking really for the care of a players health and wellbeing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2014 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Mundoscarlet Mundoscarlet wrote:

and im not all that with the so called hard as nails league players. more like stupidity in my eyes,if your that badly hurt,is that clever of the physios to let a player with a broken cheekbone play 80 mins? shocking really for the care of a players health and wellbeing


I have a feeling that Kelly, rather unwisely, played on for a while with his broken arm on Sat. Doubt that the physio would have allowed it, if they'd been clear what the injury was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turkish Fez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2014 at 9:59pm
Sam got 20 minutes at the end of the Bath - Quins games tonight in horrible conditions. After the end of the game was having man hugs with his team mates. He's massive, maybe an inch or so shorter than Dom Day but a lot broader. Apparently he's swift as well which was not seen in the conditions this evening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RhysJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2015 at 1:31am
Such a wasted talent in Rugby, wouldn't want to get in the way of a Sam Burgess bomb in the NRL. Considering I have no affinity to any of the teams I do really enjoy watching a good game of League. 
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