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Saracens squad could be dismantled

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Wil Chips View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 8:38am
There’s massive bucks in play mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 8:43am
Chris Ashton interview shows he clearly misses the point. He obtained a loan from Wray to refurb a jointly owned property. Nothing wrong with that according to Ashton just like getting it from a Bank. He went on to say that the loan has since been repaid, again all above board. What he failed to mention was that the loan was interest free - clearly Banks in the North are far better to deal with than any I have ever come across.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 9:39am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I’d add that the Scarlets offer players training on the possible conflicts in how they receive and can use things like Image rights income. Also on what is or isn’t a ‘ Scarlets ‘ event, and personal appearances therein. Excellent initiative.

It’s a space I operate in for my job ( US law differs in some interpretation but broadly they are much tighter on governance in this space than the UK), and so I am a little more tuned I guess.

I would say that generally, players ( due to their comparative income levels to the average) are not short of all sorts of investment opportunities,and there no shortage of ‘ providers’ offering ‘ safe ‘ deals. It’s a difficult area to govern.
It’s why I applaud the Scarlets for their prevention toolkit.

You get loads of US sportspeople doing ads for local/national TV, seems less here - no Ken Owens doing cereal ads or something: KenOs maybe? Think advertising is more nationalised here so harder for "local" sports stars to contribute but it is a big income for e.g. NFL quarterbacks doing state- or city-specific ads. But it's everywhere in the US I can say that from my own experience visiting.

Not sure I am ready to see Ken selling me Weetabix on morning Tellie or Rob Evans flogging  “ bootifull and lush” Pembrokeshire Farm sausages ! 😉 (very interesting info from Wil Chips mind re management of advertising/ rights)


Edited by reesytheexile - 29 January 2020 at 10:22am
"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 10:00am
Yes and all the time Saracens answer now seems to be to give up on getting their house in order, take relegation & throw more money at it by setting up big money spinning games against their South African chums. Don't quite see how that solves their cap issues & clearly Ed Griffiths doesn't want to be involved as he has left after less than a month.

It is high time that Saracens really accepted their punishment and acted accordingly. What odds McCall for Ireland if they have a ropey 6 nations? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 10:59am
Image rights are a minefield. Who owns what and who gets the advertising money etc. Union in wales is high profile but theRe are only a few marquee players with genuine value to a brand.(awj is the one that springs to mind) Anyone remember lee byrne and that dreadful advert for crappy gold? 😂😂

Edited by RR1972 - 29 January 2020 at 11:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Chris Ashton interview shows he clearly misses the point. He obtained a loan from Wray to refurb a jointly owned property. Nothing wrong with that according to Ashton just like getting it from a Bank. He went on to say that the loan has since been repaid, again all above board. What he failed to mention was that the loan was interest free - clearly Banks in the North are far better to deal with than any I have ever come across.


That s peanuts when you consider Munster got a 9,000,000 Euros interest free loan to refurbish Thomond Park.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Chris Ashton interview shows he clearly misses the point. He obtained a loan from Wray to refurb a jointly owned property. Nothing wrong with that according to Ashton just like getting it from a Bank. He went on to say that the loan has since been repaid, again all above board. What he failed to mention was that the loan was interest free - clearly Banks in the North are far better to deal with than any I have ever come across.


That s peanuts when you consider Munster got a 9,000,000 Euros interest free loan to refurbish Thomond Park.

Rather a different case don't you think. Good luck to Munster I say if the IRFU are so well run and organised. They certainly could teach the WRU a thing or three. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 12:38pm
I used dabble in F1 - the teams would hire expensive engineers to imagine intricate loopholes in the regulations so they could find innovative (often tiny) performance advantages. Then they'd hire expensive lawyers to justify their interpretation of the rules.

Often they'd get away with it - the more audacious ones, like Gordon Murray's Brabham 'Fan Car' (massive fan on the back of the car sucked air from underneath creating a vacuum which held the car on the ground around corners, but they successfully argued was for 'engine cooling) were brilliant; it was banned after a few races because it was firing stones off the track at the helmets of following drivers.

Eventually F1 set up a technical guru so that teams could test their ideas in theory before spending money on developing new technology - if Charlie Whiting said it was 'no go', they'd can it, but it allowed novel solutions which stayed within the reg's to be used without advertising the details to rival teams in the notoriously secretive world of F1.

It seems that Saracens hired expensive accountants for the same purpose, but that Premiership Rugby didn't have a consultative approach to check that the teams' creative accounting kept them within the salary cap and within the spirit of the regulations. It's a failure by Sarries to adhere to the structures which they agreed with the 12 other shareholding teams, but equally a failure of PRL properly to check the teams' compliance.

They are now making it up as they go along to ensure that Saracens are punished adequately, and I can see them rushing in new rules and clarifications in short order (and other PRL clubs scrambling to ensure their compliance) in order to bolt the stable door. While I'm perplexed by Stephen Jones's (Sunday Times, not Scarlets/Wales) extraordinarily staunch defence of Sarries, he's right that the English Premiership administrators are at fault for allowing it to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 1:19pm
There is something to say about external governance of these things. This case proves how inadequate the governing bodies are when faced with never before evaluated challenges like this one.

I’m actually a little surprised that Sarries haven’t found some reason to appeal around the likely technical blunders of EP in the process. Wray even says he had previously had approval for some of the arrangements he had made for players.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

There is something to say about external governance of these things. This case proves how inadequate the governing bodies are when faced with never before evaluated challenges like this one.

I’m actually a little surprised that Sarries haven’t found some reason to appeal around the likely technical blunders of EP in the process. Wray even says he had previously had approval for some of the arrangements he had made for players.



My thoughts are that the fact the opted out of having their accounts fully audited means there are probably other things they have done dubiously that they don't want aired in public. 

How many elite sports organisation would just accept relegation? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 1:28pm
Part of the deal with the audit was give the trophies back, also who would pay for the Audit Sarries I would expect, and it would run into a lot of money !!!!

I would believe that after the audit they would have been relegated so to save money and keep the trophies they accepted relegation.


Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

I used dabble in F1 - the teams would hire expensive engineers to imagine intricate loopholes in the regulations so they could find innovative (often tiny) performance advantages. Then they'd hire expensive lawyers to justify their interpretation of the rules.

Often they'd get away with it - the more audacious ones, like Gordon Murray's Brabham 'Fan Car' (massive fan on the back of the car sucked air from underneath creating a vacuum which held the car on the ground around corners, but they successfully argued was for 'engine cooling) were brilliant; it was banned after a few races because it was firing stones off the track at the helmets of following drivers.

Eventually F1 set up a technical guru so that teams could test their ideas in theory before spending money on developing new technology - if Charlie Whiting said it was 'no go', they'd can it, but it allowed novel solutions which stayed within the reg's to be used without advertising the details to rival teams in the notoriously secretive world of F1.

It seems that Saracens hired expensive accountants for the same purpose, but that Premiership Rugby didn't have a consultative approach to check that the teams' creative accounting kept them within the salary cap and within the spirit of the regulations. It's a failure by Sarries to adhere to the structures which they agreed with the 12 other shareholding teams, but equally a failure of PRL properly to check the teams' compliance.

They are now making it up as they go along to ensure that Saracens are punished adequately, and I can see them rushing in new rules and clarifications in short order (and other PRL clubs scrambling to ensure their compliance) in order to bolt the stable door. While I'm perplexed by Stephen Jones's (Sunday Times, not Scarlets/Wales) extraordinarily staunch defence of Sarries, he's right that the English Premiership administrators are at fault for allowing it to happen.

Excellent. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 1:52pm
Opening and publishing the books would entail exposing players, past and present, to full financial scrutiny for all the 'off the books' deals they were innocently/naiively signed up to. Even Wray and Griffiths have baulked at this, especially as it would mean alienating players against the club. They have to maintain player relations, cos they've pooped on everyone else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 2:35pm
Will the tax man be looking into all of this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Will the tax man be looking into all of this?

For sure - interest free loans are a benefit in kind & will have had to be declared. Surely the Sarries lads will have their own tax accountants or did Wray supply them with free financial advice as well. If things get much worse I can see Wray throwing his toys out of the pram and asking for his £50million backCry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrfwon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2020 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

I can see how a player (generally) could be naïve in thinking everything was above board because by and large they haven't been in work environments where all your benefits (pension, bonuses, reallocation costs, overtime, travel schemes etc.) are always on your payslip, most of us would find it extremely odd if a boss offered us perks outside of our direct employment.
 
But from Wray and the Saracens boards perspective they'll all be way more aware than most of us are about those things having their own businesses so pleading naivety is really hard to accept. Are we supposed to accept that it's their general philosophy in business to offer employees these sort of perks and deals?
 
 
I'd also guess there's a few players in the Saracens squad who were on considerably less than the likes of Farrell, Ashton and the Vunipola's who are thinking hold on I could have done with an interest free loan to buy/renovate a house!

Don't be daft mun, if I went to view a house that I wanted to buy with the CEO of the company that I was working for, and he gave me 20K to help me buy it. Doesn't matter if it were classed as an investment (on the basis to pay it back), I've still been given 20K to help buy a house on top of my salary.
Pretty sure anyone else that I worked with, if they found out would either be pissed off, or would also want a hand out.
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