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Saracens squad could be dismantled

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KID A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2020 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

the sarries have a billionaire owner=have,the welsh regions don't=have nots.


I'm not sure it quite works like that. Nigel Short is reportedly worth twice more than Mourad at Toulon but it's all about sponsors, tv income as well as investor money.

The guy who owns Bristol Rugby is 5 times wealthier than the guy who owns Saracens. Bristol haven't won 5 times as many trophies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 7:15am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


it may be idealistic to think that if you remove any restrictions a natural orderwill emerge without having a long term impact on the success and sustainability of the sport itself


Which is fine.

But for some teams to have a salary cap, playing against teams that haven't - is ludicrous, and just sums up rugby governance for me.


Spot on gunslinger.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 8:29am
I wouldn't have a clue about how many lower " amateur" teams pay players. However avery interesting quote in Steff's excellent recent article about Gareth Jenkins, a man who probably does know. Gareth was perplexed that a 30 year old player was earning £25-30K playing in the Premiership. 

That surely is not what that competition is about? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 8:34am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Some weeks ago when the Ospreys press conference was going pear shaped, Robert Davies threw into the ring the idea that there would be a B&I League in a matter of a few seasons.

Can't see it myself with so much else going on.

However, could the idea of a salary cap prove to be a stumbling block to the formation of such a League? There is no salary cap in the PRO14 to my knowledge, but if the intention is to form a B&I League, then there surely must be uniformity throughout that League?

So either the salary cap goes, or one will be imposed on the PRO14 sides that join the B&I League ?

I'm posting this a discussion point. Not sure what my views are at the moment.



Yes. Simon Thomas on twitter suggests that the Irish are against a British and Irish League. So you have to ask yourself - why on earth would they be against forming a new competition which could net them significantly larger sums of money?

Salary caps, less control, having to play their top players more, more neutral referees, being in a league that isn't run from an office next to their IRFU office in Dublin etc.


Kid A makes some excellent points about the undue influence of the IRFU. Perhaps we could have a British league and let them sort themselves out if they don't want to abide by the rules. That still won't solve the discrepancies though when it comes to European competition. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 9:27am
Speculation this morning that it might not just be Liam released before the end of this season by Saracens.

3 other players have been named as possibly being released early by Saracens, saving them possibly up to £800k on their player salaries for the 2019-2020 season.

There is also talk that Will Skelton could return to Australia before the end of his contract is up.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 9:35am
Yes it is clear that Wray has totally misjudged the extent of the problem which happened under his Chairmanship. Players like Barritt, Wigglesworth Rhodes & Figola are being talked of as maybe leaving earlier than expected. Time for Blues to be having a chat with Carre if they were apparently prepared to offer him a better contract only for Project Reset to get in the way. 

At least he would be starting most games when available which would only help his development. The impact this whole mess will have on Saracens going forward is hard to estimate but they won't get much sympathy from their fellow Premiership rivals thats for sure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 10:32am
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Speculation this morning that it might not just be Liam released before the end of this season by Saracens.

3 other players have been named as possibly being released early by Saracens, saving them possibly up to £800k on their player salaries for the 2019-2020 season.

There is also talk that Will Skelton could return to Australia before the end of his contract is up.



Are all these players being released ones that have been injured and played under 3 games this season? I think that's the metric they use to assess whether a player counts towards the cap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 10:48am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Speculation this morning that it might not just be Liam released before the end of this season by Saracens.

3 other players have been named as possibly being released early by Saracens, saving them possibly up to £800k on their player salaries for the 2019-2020 season.

There is also talk that Will Skelton could return to Australia before the end of his contract is up.



Are all these players being released ones that have been injured and played under 3 games this season? I think that's the metric they use to assess whether a player counts towards the cap.

Of the players mentioned Wigglesworth, Barritt & Skelton have certainly played 3 or more. Figalo & Rhodes have been injured so I don't know about those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 11:39am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


it may be idealistic to think that if you remove any restrictions a natural orderwill emerge without having a long term impact on the success and sustainability of the sport itself


Which is fine.

But for some teams to have a salary cap, playing against teams that haven't - is ludicrous, and just sums up rugby governance for me.
 
In their domestic competitions the presence or not of salary caps is consistent, I don't see how Europe could realistically impose or remove a cap at the moment.
 
You could easily argue that the lack of a European cap gives the Irish teams an advantage but it's no more significant (admittedly be chance rather than design) than the dominance the top football teams have on European Competitions through having no cap in place. There's been 11 different teams in the Champions league final over the past 10 years and 9 different teams in the rugby equivalent over the same period.
 
Repeating myself but I've no idea what the answer is, I just think that removing salary caps en-mass would be very dangerous when the current conditions are, by luck, keeping rugby relatively competitive with a chance of sustainability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


it may be idealistic to think that if you remove any restrictions a natural orderwill emerge without having a long term impact on the success and sustainability of the sport itself


Which is fine.

But for some teams to have a salary cap, playing against teams that haven't - is ludicrous, and just sums up rugby governance for me.

 
In their domestic competitions the presence or not of salary caps is consistent, I don't see how Europe could realistically impose or remove a cap at the moment.


That's the point isn't it.

A Cap is enforceable in one competition they play in, but not the other. But they have to have the same squad for both competitions. Other teams have no cap in either competition. That is absolutely crazy to me.


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You could easily argue that the lack of a European cap gives the Irish teams an advantage but it's no more significant (admittedly be chance rather than design) than the dominance the top football teams have on European Competitions through having no cap in place. There's been 11 different teams in the Champions league final over the past 10 years and 9 different teams in the rugby equivalent over the same period.
 
Repeating myself but I've no idea what the answer is, I just think that removing salary caps en-mass would be very dangerous when the current conditions are, by luck, keeping rugby relatively competitive with a chance of sustainability.


And therein lies this "level playing field" argument. A level playing field depends on who you speak to. Salary capping teams that are richer than you is seen by some as a level playing field. Others say letting everybody spend what they want is better. But surely surely surely surely it HAS to be the same for all teams.

In baseball, there's a "luxury tax threshold" - where anyone spending over a certain amount on player payroll has to then pay huge amounts of tax on those players, and the tax is redistributed throughout the league and funds player injuries, benefits and to the other teams that don't break the threshold.

One day maybe rugby union will be competently run. I doubt it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:15pm
So what's the solution? Or steps towards a solution?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


So what's the solution? Or steps towards a solution?


A British and Irish League, with a salary cap of £8m / £9m.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:23pm

And Europe...……..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

And Europe...……..



Europe goes to a straight knockout comp to allow for fixtures. The French wouldn't be unhappy with this.

The problem would be where do the Italians and South Africans go. But we've got to look out for ourselves in this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:26pm
genuine question
 
in sport why should the salary cap be the same for all teams?
 
if say man united earn a billion pounds income but say shef united earn £100 million income why should they have the same salary cap?
 
Let's look at say leinster compared to Connacht, they have a bigger fan base, get bigger crowds, have more sponsors and generate more corporate revenue why should those 2 have the same salary cap?
 
if sarries or any club  are willing and able to afford to pay their players £20,000,000 per annum why should anyone stop them?
 
we don't have salary caps for entertainers or for business people why do we have them for sportsmen/ women?
 
 


Edited by RR1972 - 08 January 2020 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2020 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

And Europe...……..



Europe goes to a straight knockout comp to allow for fixtures. The French wouldn't be unhappy with this.

The problem would be where do the Italians and South Africans go. But we've got to look out for ourselves in this.
 
The French would win Europe then though with their higher salary cap Wink
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