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Scarlets Supporters for Independence

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joni_bach View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joni_bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 6:04pm
I would generally support this sort of grassroots movement but I think the word 'independence' puts a lot of people off, because Wales have got to be a good 100 years away at least from being able to support themselves outside of the UK. We have very little manufacturing and financial services here for a start. When the SNP in Scotland came into power they did so on the basis that independence wouldn't be inevitable - there would still be a referendum if you wanted to stay in the UK.  

I lived in Scotland for 21 years and SNP MPs like John Swinney were the only ones we saw on the street engaging with people on the street. I remember the Tories having a conference in a hall in Dundee once and you wouldn't know they were there at all - I remember William Hague being rushed in through the back entrance because he was scared of all the hecklers out the front. So yeah, I'd personally recommend a lot of engagement with people on the street to create a groundswell to complement any online activities.

But I agree that Westminster, and politicians in general, don't serve Wales well. Think of all the things in Wales that just don't get done: Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon, developing Cardiff Airport, Severn Barrage, M4 Relief Road, improving north-south road and rail links, Ebbw Vale circuit, the Microsoft underwater data centre, Swansea to Paddington rail electrification and the Swansea metro system is now going to take a decade. 

After living in Scotland and seeing them just getting on with things like building a third Forth crossing, it's so frustrating. Yet, I saw plans recently to flood more parts of Wales to provide England with fresh water, politicians were quite positive about that. 

So I agree with this movement on principle, but the UK is probably the best country in the world and it's a difficult argument to put together to try and leave it. I'm just happy to live in Wales, which is the best part of the best country in the world.
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LLANDRE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LLANDRE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 10:07pm
We've had Labour adverts in match programmes . I've not seen any complaints about that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:16pm
Pob lwc efo'r ymgyrch. Best of luck with it. I'm a member of Yes.Cymru myself. To address some of the issues that have been or yet to be raised ...

1. There are a lot of campaign groups that are associated with sports and clubs. For example there's already a Wales football fans for independence group. I see nothing wrong with a Scarlets fans for Indy group at all ... providing they conduct themselves impeccably and within any reasonable requests of the Scarlets themselves.

2. Given that the thread has been moved to the appropriate place in the forum I see no issue with it especially since we've had a Brexit thread (ok I'll admit I've stayed away from that one - the level of vitriol surrounding the debate in the UK has been awful but to be fair to the contributors on SF the majority have conducted themselves with good grace) and Jeremy Corbyn. I trust that we shall all conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner?

3. For those who are interested in engaging in the matter, no matter your opinion I'll deign to offer a few links for your interest. Apologies if this is familiar ground:











There are many more out there. I'll post any interesting links I find in this thread.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Great idea! Always fancied living in a cave and foraging for food to stay alive.
We can use our spare time to build a wall between us and England and develop our own defence weapons. Spears and bows and arrows should be just about affordable.


These old memes have been doing the rounds since the height of the empire in the 19th century. I take it you're exaggerating for effect, but in all seriousness I don't think that the "Wales is too poor" myth holds much water.

Look at the Eastern European States that gained independence following the collapse of the USSR. Some thirty years later, a good number of them have really shifted their economies forwards. I'd argue that despite having a GDP per head some way behind the UK average, Wales is still a pretty affluent country when you compare that measure globally. I'd also argue that given that we've had rule from London for aeons, Labour dominated local government for a century and Welsh Labour Censored in the Senedd for 20 years - all of whom have acted in the interests of a centralised UK state, the Welsh economy certainly has plenty of room to grow in the event of a Wales centric govenrment with the policies to encourage said growth .... particularly if that govenment has the powers to put an extensive programme of regeneration in place.

Honest opinion ... we need to boot Labour out first.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:39pm
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:49pm
A very good article from the Institute of Welsh Affairs website here:


I read this in the light of Labour's ongoing failure to reform local government in Wales. What worries me most is how the Welsh economy has been so stagnant under Welsh Labour and next year the Welsh Government begins to raise part of it's own budget through income tax (with powers to vary the bands by as much as 10p in the pound). https:////www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38345168 This is expected to account for 20% of the WAG budget. Even they are begining to wake up to the fact that they can't carry on as they are.

New ideas are needed. I'm watching the Plaid leadership race with interest. At least it has reinvigorated the debate over our economy. I'm not seeing many ideas coming out of the Labour camp at the present moment.




Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 31 August 2018 at 11:59pm
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 8:14am
An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 
That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

An independent Wales would be a disaster.  We are just not up to it.  Our politicians do not cut the mustard and without EU aid over the last 20 years our economy would be dead in the water. 


This is another meme that’s been doing the rounds for decades. I don’t think the “We’re not good enough” argument holds water either. Your observation of Welsh politics isn’t entirely baseless. We have effectively had a one party state for the last hundred years. Welsh Labour have proven to be wholly inadequate in developing the Welsh economy. Check out Rhun apIorwerth’s article on Nation.Cymru where he talks about Labour managing our economic decline.

From the failed economic policy of “inward investment” to the poorly spent European funding, between them the Welsh office and WAG have been useless. We now have a massive demographic shift with some 600k mostly younger Welsh moving to England and a similar number (but on average older) moving the other way oner the last 20 years.

In amongst the Welsh diaspora are people of remarkable talent. We’re no different from any other nation in that regard. For example the director behind the building of the LHC at Cern, probably the greatest physics experiment to date is Prof. Lyn Evans ... a Swansea lad. The first step in tapping into our own talent is to boot Labour out. Instead of naked self interest we need a government that is committed to building our economy. Welsh Labour are on a cosy little number and they and their hangers on are bleeding the country dry.

However please don’t conflate their miserable misgovernment with an inability for Wales to grow. Time for a change.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 10:05am

There's a fair bit of contradiction in the rationale for using the scarlets name, and badge, to further the cause, or not as it may be.

I've very little interest in the topic of independence but have absolutely no issue with people looking for like minded people to discuss it with either on here or at games but I wouldn't want my pre match entertainment to include banners and marches, I go to the rugby to watch rugby, talk rugby and have a laugh, like many others.

If it were successful in getting the profile raised using the scarlets they would be strongly associated with the movement because of the choice of name, badge and location to promote independence, surely we can see that? Seems pretty clear that is the aim?


Edited by Gate12 - 01 September 2018 at 10:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:43am
Originally posted by LLANDRE LLANDRE wrote:

We've had Labour adverts in match programmes . I've not seen any complaints about that.


That's an advert. They're paying the club to get publicity and not calling themselves the Scarlets Labour Group as far as I'm aware.

The issue here is the assumed association with the Scarlets. Unless the club have given their full blessing of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cymroircarn9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:


There's a fair bit of contradiction in the rationale for using the scarlets name, and badge, to further the cause, or not as it may be.

I've very little interest in the topic of independence but have absolutely no issue with people looking for like minded people to discuss it with either on here or at games but I wouldn't want my pre match entertainment to include banners and marches, I go to the rugby to watch rugby, talk rugby and have a laugh, like many others.

If it were successful in getting the profile raised using the scarlets they would be strongly associated with the movement because of the choice of name, badge and location to promote independence, surely we can see that? Seems pretty clear that is the aim?


Why are you so worried that that would be the case? What would be so wrong with the Scarlets being associated with an independence movement? It still doesn’t mean you or the club itself or anyone else has to back it.

I’ve mentioned it already, as have others. There are already several sports organisations in wales with Indy supporters groups associated with them. I’ve helped with the football group as I’m a big football fan too. Nobody will link the scarlets with it more or less than any other group. If we are being honest, while the scarlets have a decent platform with European rugby, it’s still nothing compared to international football or rugby. So if both of those have banners on show, or marches (which I’m hearing they will) theyll be just as associated with any independence movement if not more.

I really can’t see what’s so horrible about a club being associated with a political movement like this. Especially a club like the Scarlets who as a club and whose fan base make absolutely no secret of their political leanings with the use of a patriotic nationalist anthem at every home game.

I know not everybody in the club will feel the same way which is why I keep repeating that the group doesn’t speak for everyone.

The Indy movement currently, as you can gather from other posts on here, is mainly focusing on dispelling the myths surrounding it and knocking down the stigma surrounding the word. So many people in wales would say ‘I’d like to see it, but we are too poor/small’ etc but it just isn’t true, and there are several cases worldwide of countries achieving independence and going on to prosper, despite being extremely poor before.

People raise the issue that we have nowhere near enough economic power to stand by ourselves, but you’ve also got to ask why we are in that situation in the first place. Somebody mentioned earlier that we are a part of the ‘best country in the world’. So why is Wales so far behind economically than the rest of the UK? Why do they keep pulling the plug on projects that would boost our economy, while investing heavily in infrastructure in England that is already miles ahead of ours?

It may be true that it would be difficult if we were independent, but we are already one of the poorest countries in Europe, with some of the highest poverty rates and have the highest use of emergency food banks in the UK. Westminster and the assembly have caused this, and if you look throughout history, it’s ALWAYS been the same. We have to fight tooth and nail for everything we have; S4C, equality of the Welsh language (lawfully and in public sector), and devolution, basic things we should have a right to.

We pay the same tax as everyone else in the UK yet get the least out of it, with anglo-centric media (successfully) convincing us that we aren’t strong enough to go it alone while simultaneously treating us, our language and our culture with utter contempt. I can guarantee that the UK needs Wales more than Wales needs the UK.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cymroircarn9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:51am
When I first started coming around to the idea of independence, I had the same concerns as most others. But we are strong enough to do it, we just have to believe it.

Our lack of quality politicians is a concern, but Wales is one of the most politically disengaged countries in the world. Why? Because we’ve had one party rule for the last 100 years. People mindlessly vote labour every election, if they vote at all, without really knowing what they’re voting for. The scope of Welsh politics needs to change for us to produce better politicians. Our politicians don’t need to be very good because the population votes for them anyway.

We actually have some of the most abundant natural resources in the world, the key one being water. We actually sell our water at a massively discounted rate to the rest of the UK, and Welsh citizens pay more for it. It’s written into law that the Welsh assembly is not allowed to adjust the rate at which we sell our water, which tells you all you need to know about how important it is to the rest of the UK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 11:58am
The branding could very easily imply the club have that stance, and the pride in the region about the welsh language doesn't necessarily translate into supporting independence no matter how much emphasis is put on one song.

Like I said I've virtually no interest in the wider topic of independence so won't be writing any essays or even reading 80% of your post.

What I am concerned about is the club, and your yet to convince me that its not being used to further a cause.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cymroircarn9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:04pm
With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Cymroircarn9 Cymroircarn9 wrote:

With regards to the Scarlets for Indy group specifically, it really is as simple as this:

I’m going to do my absolute best to get this movement going with Scarlets supporters. People are worried it will be associated with, and be assumed to represent, the entire Scarlets fan base. This won’t happen unless this is actually the case.

If this group takes off, and many Scarlets fans get on board, and suddenly the majority are in favour of it and support it, bring banners to games, then yes the Scarlets will be associated with the Indy movement. Which would be fine because the majority would be on board. I would assume the club would support what the majority of the fan base wants.

If it falls flat on its face, and nobody gets on board, and there’s one banner on show at matches, it will be seen as what it is - a small faction of scarlets fans supporting a cause.

This is why your concerns about the scarlets brand etc are baseless.

Your assumption that the Scarlets Company would support whatever the majority of supporters support is not accurate. The Scarlets, in my opinion, would strongly distance themselves from such a movement. They are not a political entity & should never get involved in political side taking. Just because we sing one of Dafydd Iwan's finest songs in no way implies what you claim. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2018 at 12:19pm
I'm trying to be polite but let's call a spade a spade, you're using the clubs profile and brand to grow your profile.

Whether that's intentional or you're so caught up in it you don't realise how obvious it is is debatable, not that it really matters.

Edited by Gate12 - 01 September 2018 at 12:20pm
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