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philturk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2018 at 7:03pm
Ridiculous notion that Wales could or even should stand alone! People need to stop living in the past
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2018 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Ridiculous notion that Wales could or even should stand alone! People need to stop living in the past


I couldn't disagree more. It's the best thing we could possibly do for ourselves. The chance to take our own future into our own hands ... sounds pretty forward looking to me.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2018 at 8:55pm
How could Wales sustain itself? Without any recognisable industry or level of trade, the deficit would be massive and wales’ ability to arrange meaningful trade agreements would be non existent.

It’s nothing more than village mentality

Let me guess, you also voted Leave too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2018 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

How could Wales sustain itself? Without any recognisable industry or level of trade, the deficit would be massive and wales’ ability to arrange meaningful trade agreements would be non existent.

It’s nothing more than village mentality

Let me guess, you also voted Leave too.


No I voted remain.

We do have some significant industry in Wales. We also have a trade surplus at the moment although that has varied a great deal over the years. Our biggest issue is productivity and a relatively low GVA/head which needs remedying with investment in modernising and R&D. We have pockets of excellence which we do not take far enough. Despite all this we have a GDP (debatable as the actuall figures are) that would give an independent Wales a budget of between £25-30Bn.

Now I'm of the opinion that we have plenty of room to grow our economy and I lay the blame for our present and historic underperformance squarely at the feet of those who have been governing Wales. For most of the modern period that would be Labour and the Tories. AFAIC they slavishly follow Disraeli's "One Nation" ideology contrary to the obvious facts (pre-victorian era, Britain was self styled "The Mongrel Nation") and they have constructed a highly centralised economy focused on London and the S.E. That is to the detriment of the r.o.UK and extremely short sighted as the state would be far stronger if all of its components were performing well.

Wales' recent history is blighted by "Welsh Labour's" running of the WAG. I'm crossing my fingers that their days of electoral dominance in Wales are over but recent polling has left me disappointed. In their hands the Barnett formula has been toxic and they have acted in their own interests as opposed to Wales'. They promised a bonfire of the quangos but took public services away from local authorities and put them in the hands of the 3rd sector. The third sector is sadly populated by their lackeys. For example they support housing associations with WAG money but we have no democratic oversight due to their operating structures. These housing associations recieve a lot of money to take on people with significant social problems. Local people in various parts have protested over new housing association builds all over Wales for this very reason. Police have complained that they are not resourced sufficiently to deal with the rising demands on themselves. Elsewhere they have failed to grapple with the proliferation of councils that we have and have allowed the WLGA to dictate terms to them. Subsequently in an age of austerity they compare the councils to Oliver Twist when funds run short. Furthermore you have a prospective leadership candidate in Eluned Morgan admitting that they have utterly failed to develop the Welsh economy.

Wales' current fortunes are not an accident, neither are they inevitable but they are the consequence of a lack of government in some cases and bad government in others. We need a sovereign government for Wales with the authority and powers to move our economy forwards. We need to grow up in terms of our political culture and we most certainly need to educate ourselves about how Wales is run and hold these politicians to account. We must ensure that we are better governed.

One thing is for certain, if we go back to pre-97 arrangements we go back to the days of John Redwood and the centralised UK economy and if we carry on as we are we get more of the same. Neither are acceptable imho and have already shown themselves to be unsustainable for our communities and nation. We have to look to ourselves to better our lot. There are plenty of small countries out there that do very well for themselves. There is nothing to stop us from getting on in the world but our own unwillingness to do it for ourselves.

I fail to see how supporting independence for the sake of a better future is a "village mentality."


Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 08 November 2018 at 9:25pm
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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philturk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 8:11am
Sorry but the maths is simple, Wales imports more than it exports hence expenditure would be more than its income without the support it receives from Westminster.

This ridiculous notion of being better standing alone rather than being part of a larger collobaritive has never throughout history proved successful.

The entire concept is laughable, if you voted remain then you see the benefits of a wider European economy and yet you think isolating Wales is a good thing? Let’s take Ireland’s financial collapse as an example, Ireland has a far greater level of income from tourism and exports however was unable to sustain itself without EU bailouts. You honestly believe that Wales (* alittle village full of bigoted idiots) is more sustainable ?

*i use this term as it is evidenced by people’s reactions to English people and towards EU workers who came to wales which I have personally witnessed and been wholeheartedly disgusted with on numerous occasions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 9:36am
I see the spirit of D.J. Williams, Glyndwr and Carwyn James etc is alive and kicking in philturk -NOT.

Phil do your calculations include our part of the ridiculous costs of our lap-dog defence (or is it attack) policy and keeping the ridiculous English Royal family in the pomp and luxury that is deemed necessary to impress the English braindead?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 11:17am
Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


the English braindead?


If someone tried to back up a point by ending a statement with '.........the Welsh braindead', I'm sure you'd have something to say.

An argument is a whole lot more convincing when it doesn't resort to insults.

Having said all that, I was sorely tempted to insult someone to make myself feel better when I saw this yesterday.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


the English braindead?


If someone tried to back up a point by ending a statement with '.........the Welsh braindead', I'm sure you'd have something to say.

An argument is a whole lot more convincing when it doesn't resort to insults.

Having said all that, I was sorely tempted to insult someone to make myself feel better when I saw this yesterday.


Too right - blo..y cheek. !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

 
Glyndwr led the campaign to resist English colonisation of Wales, that is, to maintain our independence. At the time there wasn't a lot of democracy around to enable us to have leaders other than princes or clerics. 
The royal family, that people like yourself want  to preserve as head of state for England, Wales and the rest of the colonies, is a feudal reminder, in a modern time, of a past when the "werin" knew their place and the power of the rulers was absolute. Our sycophantic media know that to get on, they have to keep quiet about the class struggle that has removed the monarchy from most modern states, but has given lucky us the farce of a feudal monarchy whose origins are not even English.  But please  don't mention their Germanic origins during the odd decade when Her Majesty's Government want to recruit young men to give their lives fighting the Fatherland.

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

And how much of that does Wales see? 
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

 
Glyndwr led the campaign to resist English colonisation of Wales, that is, to maintain our independence. At the time there wasn't a lot of democracy around to enable us to have leaders other than princes or clerics. 
The royal family, that people like yourself want  to preserve as head of state for England, Wales and the rest of the colonies, is a feudal reminder, in a modern time, of a past when the "werin" knew their place and the power of the rulers was absolute. Our sycophantic media know that to get on, they have to keep quiet about the class struggle that has removed the monarchy from most modern states, but has given lucky us the farce of a feudal monarchy whose origins are not even English.  But please  don't mention their Germanic origins during the odd decade when Her Majesty's Government want to recruit young men to give their lives fighting the Fatherland.

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.


I'm with you Ffidel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

And how much of that does Wales see? 

Good question Scarletnut. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:56pm
Your argument is so weak it’s laughable! “How much of that does wales get” ? Well seeing as Westminster subsides Wales to the tune of £8Bn per year in terms of taxation as opposed to public spending then I’d suggest Wales is doing pretty well from the deal.

Seeing as your argument is based on something that happened 600 years ago I’d suggest that maybe it’s time to move on an embrace the new world.

Wales cannot stand alone, any industry left is heavily subsidised by the U.K. and EU! Just look at how much EU funding has been poured into Wales, take the A465 redevelopment (Wales can’t even build adequate transport links without big brother - the EU helping it)

I wonder how many of you with such pathetically blinkered views have lived outside of Wales and experiences there is a world outside of your immediate surroundings (and no going to the same place in Spain and drinking in an Irish bar doesn’t count)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.


But why did you feel the need to type English then? There are plenty of Monarchists in Wales and Scotland too.

Those shouting for independence have to be sure that they are doing it the correct way. That is; building up an argument that supports a PRO WALES agenda and not one that is ANTI ENGLAND.

Just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Your argument is so weak it’s laughable! “How much of that does wales get” ? Well seeing as Westminster subsides Wales to the tune of £8Bn per year in terms of taxation as opposed to public spending then I’d suggest Wales is doing pretty well from the deal.

Seeing as your argument is based on something that happened 600 years ago I’d suggest that maybe it’s time to move on an embrace the new world.

Wales cannot stand alone, any industry left is heavily subsidised by the U.K. and EU! Just look at how much EU funding has been poured into Wales, take the A465 redevelopment (Wales can’t even build adequate transport links without big brother - the EU helping it)

I wonder how many of you with such pathetically blinkered views have lived outside of Wales and experiences there is a world outside of your immediate surroundings (and no going to the same place in Spain and drinking in an Irish bar doesn’t count)

Does 3 years living & working in Africa & 12 years in Kent count?Am I then entitled to an opinion because clearly if I'd lived & worked in Rhydcymerau all my life, regardless of my education & life experiences I have pathetically blinkered views. Your overbearing attitude is a wonderful example of what can & sometimes does go wrong with this forum. Your view is no more or less important than anybody elses; the sooner you understand that the better!!!!
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