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Scarlets-Ospreys Plan - Some facts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Ospreys fans won't come to watch a merged team at PYS anyway, so why (if this the plan) destroy 2 identities and mess up what Scarlets have created over all the years???


This.... I have a fair few Ospreys fans who are incredibly upset about the news & have al stated that they will under no circumstances support/attend a merged regions matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:05am
If it's the liberty running costs tgatp hurting them. Surely they've known this for a while and playing at the brewery field, st Helens or gnoll would been better
So because of os bad running it's now affecting us. Hell no
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:07am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

THIS IS IMPORTANT:
The Ospreys are bust. They tabled a merger plan with Scarlets at PRB in Jan, but then decided to go alone.

They then quickly drafted a plan to merge with Cardiff Blues, but this failed when Blues made it known that the Os were insolvent.

PRB - who are made up of WRU + the 4 Regions - has a responsibility to protect pro rugby in Wales, and is now (at the Os’ instigation) evaluating the potential of a ‘merger’ between Scarlets & Ospreys.

There are so many details to be considered that it will take time, and there has been no opportunity for a communication plan as things are moving so fast. Players, staff and, of course, supporters are going to be affected by this, but patience & understanding are needed.

In parallel, the ‘backstop’ of a pro region at RGC is being enacted - a 4th Region is required for contractual reasons, and this is the probably the most viable option.

However, this is clearly emotive, and there is a lot of frustration & anger being directed at the Union - it’s important to remember that the WRU & PRB are trying to mitigate against one club’s bankruptcy, and to simply let it go to the wall would be more chaotic & damaging than to try to manage the situation with a technical merger.

Scarlets, as a successful part of PRB, are party to trying to make this work. There’s a long way to go, many details to be addressed, but now the Ospreys board has finally been honest with itself & its PRB partners, a sustainable solution may be possible.

Please bear this in mind in your social media speculations.


Thanks for this NobbyScarlet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.


Completely correct and loving your passion Mike.

Agree 100%. Quite a few of us bought shares back when there was a risk of bankruptcy and never expected - or got - a penny back. That was done to ensure that Llanelli/Scarlets survived, not some amorphous entity. The 'Ospreys' is already an invention - a merger of Swansea and Neath - which can't mean that much to anyone, at least not from a historical perspective.

If it works out that we get a few of their better players (AWJ would be more than welcome), and that the others form the basis of a new region in the North, then OK - so long as the Scarlets name/brand remains. It should be more of a takeover, not a merger, IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

 Thanks for this NobbyScarlet

Great to hear from you, Lofty. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Mugwuffin Mugwuffin wrote:

I think facts are in short supply at this stage, but what you posted is probably pretty accurate, IMO.

What I can’t understand is why we’d be willing to “merge”. The rumours are that the Ospreys benefactors are willing to put money into this new hybrid entity. If they’re bringing money to the table they will want influence and concessions from us. The question is, why would they put money into this proposed new team but not use it to keep what they’ve already built going?

Any concessions we make for them in terms of branding will be extremely tough to stomach for most Scarlets fans. No concessions we make will ever be enough for most Ospreys fans. This has all the makings of a disaster. Two fan bases will be alienated, crowds will likely be smaller than either team pulls in currently, money will be wasted in trying (in vain) to placate the two sets of fans, and in a few short years the WRU will be scratching its head wondering why the West and South-West of Wales doesn’t produce as many talented players as it did when there were two teams covering those areas instead of one.

We need to be very noisy in opposition to this. Perhaps a joint petition with Ospreys fans against this merger, with a threat to boycott any hybrid team, is the way to go. If we make it clear this decision will be bad for business they will surely have to listen.


That would basically be a petition to ask Ospreys supporters to stop having any kind of team to support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote gwentred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:30am
Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote thommo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:44am
Originally posted by gwentred gwentred wrote:

Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.

Dont you realise the significance the name scarlets has with the fans. To be honest you haven't a clue. Scarlets is who we are,what we are and without that then they lost the connection. If you so no harm in rebranding the region without the scarlets, then i give up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:45am
Originally posted by thommo thommo wrote:

Originally posted by gwentred gwentred wrote:

Know im going to get shot down here but i think the Scarlets board have played an absolute blinder in ensuring top class pro rugby continues to be played in Llanelli. You have to bare in mind that Llanelli is roughly the same size as Merthyr. We will subsume the countrys second biggest city and its hinterland. When payments to regions are resructured to ensure 2 max funded regions and 2 lesser funded regions, we wil be one of the max funded regions. Its the equivilent of Burnley taking over Man utd. Thanks to scarlets board and Nigel Short we will have top funded pro rugby on our doorstep. If the only cost is a name change, Im not going to get hung up on a name as long as its not ospreys. Could live with west wales or Red Kites or similar. Some people just dont realise how lucky we are.

Dont you realise the significance the name scarlets has with the fans. To be honest you haven't a clue. Scarlets is who we are,what we are and without that then they lost the connection. If you so no harm in rebranding the region without the scarlets, then i give up.

ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap

We didn't fight to stand alone to allow the board to rip it away from us now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote turkishrebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:47am
It's what we have fought for in the past. We are the Scarlets not some hybrid rubbish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 9:47am
All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.

She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

If we had assurance that this will be a continuation of the Scarlets brand, that would be fine. Until we do, the last thing we should offer is patience and understanding. The strength of feeling has to be felt by our board right now. They should not be allowed to effectively kill off the Scarlets, and frankly shame on them if they are even considering it just to “help out” the Ospreys who have mismanaged themselves into the ground.

This is suicidal nonsense. The team has to Scarlet branded. Small tweaks, some evolved identity could possibly be swallowed but if we’re not chanting Scarlets then it’s finished.


Bang on the money mike..... after all the cr@p we've taken over the years. No way.

Lets help wherever we can but there are limits.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pillory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:25am
So, are we talking about a possible back-office merger that would allow both distinct brands to continue operating?

Here's a hypothetical/hopeful, based on no inside knowledge:
Ospreys are allowed to enter administration or will be liquidated, wiping out their debts. They are debt. But losing the Ospreys and its substantial following would be disastrous, and merging Scarlets and Ospreys is unthinkable.
An Ospreys NewCo/phoenix would be unable to support itself alone, would need to be substantially different and would require support of another entity.
Scarlets Rugby or, preferably, a new JV operating company would take on joint functions like marketing for both Scarlets and Ospreys, thereby saving on the many non-paying salaries from unfortunate Ospreys staff.
This would be a new entity the WRU approves to deliver rugby in what they will call the "West". Most of us know the west starts at Loughor, but there we are.
Let's call it "West Wales Rugby" would be a joint operating company for both sides, but both Scarlets and Ospreys would continue to exist. WWR would be a vehicle providing WRU with a degree of control over this greater region - you would see more player movements/sharing a la Aled/Scott. You would also see the union try to template this solution in the east, through the creation of Eastern Regional Rugby ("ERR"... errrrrr), failitating "closer working relationships" between Blues and Dragons.
It would happen in return for a new and improved financial settlement and will be presented as a positive outcome.
But both hold the potential for ultimate future consolidation of West and East super-regions.
God knows where Ospreys Phoenix play if Liberty Stadium rent is amongst the biggest of its financial burdens.

Just trying to find some hope and guess what is going on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

All well and good saying the Ospreys skint but the WRU stumped up the money to save and take over the Dragons can’t they see which team is worth saving and which is worth scrapping.
Unless of course the finances at the Ospreys are that bad that they are beyond saving which leads to the question how have they been allowed to be so incompetent.
How the hell were they allowed to sign players like North using WRU money. Were there no checks by the union before they allowed that to happen. Yes the board at the Ospreys have a lot to answer for but the WRU have been at best negligent and at worst complicit in their demise.

Forming PRB has forced the 5 parties to be open and honest with themselves and each other, and to genuinely work together - for some, it's been harder than others (one is still not there).

But the Ospreys board have finally faced up to their situation, and it's now down to PRB (inc WRU) to try and find a short term fix that enables a sustainable long term future for pro rugby in Wales. This situation, and the timing of it breaking, are totally down to the Ospreys management. Previously, they'd kept their hand hidden - now they've had to show it. PRB has forced all the problems to the surface, and now they're being addressed, by the PRB within WRU.

Having already bought and stabilised (financially) the Dragons, there are no funds to purchase a debt-ridden club, so other solutions must be explored, hence the Os tabling merger plans with their nearest neighbours. If this is feasible (and there's no indication yet whether it is - the Os' accounts won't be filed until 31/3, and they may yet delay), it will happen. Our own board and chair are incredibly diligent visionaries - if they believe they can make this work, they will - but there'll be no hubris in their decision-making, something that has driven poor business decisions in the game for decades.

The RGC option is possible because an 8-figure sum is apparently available to make it happen, and it's necessary because we are contractually obliged to enter 4 teams into domestic & European competitions. The benefits between running 3 & 4 clubs are marginal, but 4 seems to be the preferred option, so the RGC 'backstop' is required and, it is hoped, will develop the game in a region long overlooked. Personally, I think the challenges will be massive, but we're at a point where it may as well be tried.

I understand that there is a lot of raw emotion around this on both sides of the Loughor, and in the wider game, but that needs to be tempered with the realisation that this needs to happen to safeguard all our futures, and that good people - including those within the Ospreys who still have the passion and wherewithal to make a difference, and certainly within the WRU - are trying to get good, lasting outcomes from this situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pillory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:36am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

The RGC option is possible because an 8-figure sum is apparently available to make it happen

Is there any public record of this offer? I presume this is the £12,000,000 Welsh Government offer I saw referenced on Scarlet Fever last night? It sounds like a Ken Skates initiative... ?

I support exploring public subsidy to the WRU (just look at Ireland).
And I support more rugby in north Wales for cultural reasons (but in the same way I support Welsh independence - it's idealism).

The concern, however, is that taxpayer money is incentivising the WRU to destroy two cultures in the south.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2019 at 10:41am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

THIS IS IMPORTANT:
The Ospreys are bust. They tabled a merger plan with Scarlets at PRB in Jan, but then decided to go alone.

They then quickly drafted a plan to merge with Cardiff Blues, but this failed when Blues made it known that the Os were insolvent.

PRB - who are made up of WRU + the 4 Regions - has a responsibility to protect pro rugby in Wales, and is now (at the Os’ instigation) evaluating the potential of a ‘merger’ between Scarlets & Ospreys.

There are so many details to be considered that it will take time, and there has been no opportunity for a communication plan as things are moving so fast. Players, staff and, of course, supporters are going to be affected by this, but patience & understanding are needed.

In parallel, the ‘backstop’ of a pro region at RGC is being enacted - a 4th Region is required for contractual reasons, and this is the probably the most viable option.

However, this is clearly emotive, and there is a lot of frustration & anger being directed at the Union - it’s important to remember that the WRU & PRB are trying to mitigate against one club’s bankruptcy, and to simply let it go to the wall would be more chaotic & damaging than to try to manage the situation with a technical merger.

Scarlets, as a successful part of PRB, are party to trying to make this work. There’s a long way to go, many details to be addressed, but now the Ospreys board has finally been honest with itself & its PRB partners, a sustainable solution may be possible.

Please bear this in mind in your social media speculations.

How on earth did the ospreys make such a mess of their finances is one question. If they go bankrupt which seems inevitable according to the stories were hearing. What options do they have? Cant they re-emerge after a firesale, re-structuring their debts, perhaps a WRU and extended bank loan , perhaps some kind of help from the council / welsh assembly even...letting a lot of players go? Neath went bust a few times and re-emerged, though clearly the figures involved here will be much bigger. Yes for a few years theyd be a far a weaker region but at least they will still exist and one day day may rebuild. The sheer number of strong clubs in their region is massive. Allied to their academy and age group rugby, talents of the future would eventually re-emerge


Edited by roy munster - 05 March 2019 at 10:42am
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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