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services nhs wales no longer offer...

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roy munster View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 October 2018 at 10:58am
It seems they dont clear out blocked ears anymore in any doctors surgeries and kidney stones on nhs wales are 18 months minimum

The surgeries seem to blame the trust and the trust the surgeries....reading between the lines it seems the gp practices have the choice to opt out of offering wax removal /ear irrigation , just as they chose to opt out of out of hours and home visits in 2004.

is it time to regulate these health boards and surgeries tighter and re-write these contracts? Or perhaps try to scale back the trust board staff , many of whom are not medically qualified people.

Im sure carwyn is all over it?Ermm
anyhoo no private irrigation is available here and its around £60 in some private clinics in swansea

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2018 at 11:43am
The Welsh government running of the NHS in Wales is failing when compared to England. Waiting lists are out of control. I speak from personal experience. Having moved from Rochester to Rhydcymerau I find that the waiting list for my knee replacement has gone up from 18 weeks in Kent to 98 weeks in Carmarthenshire. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2018 at 3:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2018 at 4:08pm
Firstly they need a nationwide welsh waiting list database for all welsh hospitals and procedures...should be easily manageable for such a small nation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 12:15pm
Your right. When we lived over the border ear blockage clearing was just routinely done by the nurse on appointment but here the doctors now wont do it (to mundane a task to over worked practices perhaps) and we only seem to have an organisation in Swansea who was on an answerphone and who could only promise an appointment x weeks away (even though paying a fee for it) and someone in Carmarthen who was quicker to see and did the job for my family member at a fee. Jib done for another 12 months or so.

There was no-one in Llanelli or elsewhere in Swansea. Sounds an opportunity for a Ear wax removal business franchise in this part of the world- amazed really Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

The Welsh government running of the NHS in Wales is failing when compared to England. Waiting lists are out of control. I speak from personal experience. Having moved from Rochester to Rhydcymerau I find that the waiting list for my knee replacement has gone up from 18 weeks in Kent to 98 weeks in Carmarthenshire. 

While I am sorry for your personal circumstances, the truth (as is often the case) is far more complicated. I have pointed out many times in this forum that Wales is disproportionately penalised by the outdated Barnett formula - and there is good academic research to back this up:


As the article points out, this doesn't let the WAG off the hook, but does provide context. They don't get a fair share of funding - but are nevertheless responsible for spending what they do get effectively. 

In truth, the NHS across the whole of the UK has been severely underfunded (the increases in cash terms have failed to keep up with the increase in demand, so a 'real terms' cut) - I could provide links to some strong criticism of the government's spending since 2010, but this is a pretty balanced view:


Perhaps this is the key sentence: 

"The increase in total health spending over the Forward View period will be around £4.6 billion, far lower than the £8 to £10 billion variously claimed by the government. Spending on social care and public health has been cut. The government has given the NHS less money than it asked for."

So, in short:

The government is underfunding the NHS across the UK.
What Wales gets is calculated by the out of date and unfair Barnett formula, which makes things worse (in Wales)
The WAG could possibly improve the way they spend the funds they do get.


Edited by aber-fan - 23 October 2018 at 1:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

The Welsh government running of the NHS in Wales is failing when compared to England. Waiting lists are out of control. I speak from personal experience. Having moved from Rochester to Rhydcymerau I find that the waiting list for my knee replacement has gone up from 18 weeks in Kent to 98 weeks in Carmarthenshire. 

While I am sorry for your personal circumstances, the truth (as is often the case) is far more complicated. I have pointed out many times in this forum that Wales is disproportionately penalised by the outdated Barnett formula - and there is good academic research to back this up:


As the article points out, this doesn't let the WAG off the hook, but does provide context. They don't get a fair share of funding - but are nevertheless responsible for spending what they do get effectively. 

In truth, the NHS across the whole of the UK has been severely underfunded (the increases in cash terms have failed to keep up with the increase in demand, so a 'real terms' cut) - I could provide links to some strong criticism of the government's spending since 2010, but this is a pretty balanced view:


Perhaps this is the key sentence: 

"The increase in total health spending over the Forward View period will be around £4.6 billion, far lower than the £8 to £10 billion variously claimed by the government. Spending on social care and public health has been cut. The government has given the NHS less money than it asked for."

So, in short:

The government is underfunding the NHS across the UK.
What Wales gets is calculated by the out of date and unfair Barnett formula, which makes things worse (in Wales)
The WAG could possibly improve the way they spend the funds they do get.

Fair comment Aber - points well made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 2:23pm
it seems harder than ever to get the basic hardline independent comprehensive facts and figures on NHS spending per head compared to other nations. its also hard to get an exact breakdown of exactly where all the money is spent. Without all the specific facts its really hard to draw any concrete conclusions. Various reports say the spending per head is below many other nations. stria.

Figures from 2016 show that at 9.5 per cent as a share of national income, health spending – both public and private – falls substantially below spending in Germany, at 11.3 per cent, and France, at 11 per cent.

wales it says spends slightly more per head on health than england but the results in most key areas are worse. 


tween 2009-10 and 2012-13, health spending was cut in real terms by about 3.6% in Wales.

During the same period, the English health budget was increasing, albeit at under 1% a year in real terms, which was less than the average yearly growth of 4% seen under the previous Labour government.

However, since 2012-13, health spending in Wales has increased from £6bn to close to £7bn in 2016-17. The Wales Audit Office notes an average 2.9% annual increase in real terms during this period.

This tops spending increases in England, which have averaged 2% per year since 2013. In fact, Wales now spends £64 more per person on health than England, according to HM Treasury.

Another thing to note is that while the Welsh government is responsible for deciding where money is spent, most of this money is allocated by Westminster.

While the Welsh government had almost £16bn available to spend in 2009-10, this had dropped to about £14.5bn by 2016-17, as allocated by the Barnett formula.

It is indeed up to the Welsh government how it prioritises that money, as Theresa May pointed out.

In 2016, England performed better in key diagnosis areas such as hernia, pneumonia and heart disease, while waiting times for important procedures are shorter than in Wales.

Welsh patients have to wait three times as long for hip operations, for example.

But on other key procedures such as heart bypasses and kidney transplants, the waits were shorter. Cancer diagnoses were similar in the two countries

I read somewhere there was £60 million plus spent on cosmetic surgery in the Uk in 2013 but the figures since are mysteriously unavailable, thats a ridiculous figure. Breast enlargements on the NHS are absurd. The GP surgeries seem to have way too much self governance now. The other elephant in the room is massively rising population. Up 8 million in 30 years. The tories are asleep at the wheel imho I just wish the labour party could prove themselves capable of running things better. When welsh labour is seen to be doing poorly on the NHS it wrecks their chances of ever returning to number 10



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 3:53pm
Whereas I don't wish to claim that the WAG is doing a great job of running the NHS in Wales, it is certainly the case that the Tory government has been disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst in its attacks on the WAG over the NHS.

The Tories have underfunded Wales in general (Barnett - though Labour, with a heavy Scottish influence, failed to do anything under Blair/Brown) and the NHS in particular (by real-terms cuts every year since 2010). 

Could the WAG do better with the funds it has? Very probably.

Is it fighting with one hand tied behind its back? Very likely.


Edited by aber-fan - 23 October 2018 at 3:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Whereas I don't wish to claim that the WAG is doing a great job of running the NHS in Wales, it is certainly the case that the Tory government has been disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst in its attacks on the WAG over the NHS.

The Tories have underfunded Wales in general (Barnett - though Labour, with a heavy Scottish influence, failed to do anything under Blair/Brown) and the NHS in particular (by real-terms cuts every year since 2010). 

Could the WAG do better with the funds it has? Very probably.

Is it fighting with one hand tied behind its back? Very likely.

Im not impressed with gethin thus far....Theres loads the WAG and the trusts should be doing better..Theres loads of non medically qualified middle management staff sucking millions out of the nhs...There needs to be a far better waiting list system, a national database....The social care and heath trust should all merge into one just as theyve done in scotland. Theres billions of unclaimed funds from various insurance and health policies left on the floor in the NHS too...The list goes on and on as do the waiting lists for thousands of innocent people who have paid all their dues and sit silently in pain as this tragedy escalates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2018 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Whereas I don't wish to claim that the WAG is doing a great job of running the NHS in Wales, it is certainly the case that the Tory government has been disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst in its attacks on the WAG over the NHS.

The Tories have underfunded Wales in general (Barnett - though Labour, with a heavy Scottish influence, failed to do anything under Blair/Brown) and the NHS in particular (by real-terms cuts every year since 2010). 

Could the WAG do better with the funds it has? Very probably.

Is it fighting with one hand tied behind its back? Very likely.

Im not impressed with gethin thus far....Theres loads the WAG and the trusts should be doing better..Theres loads of non medically qualified middle management staff sucking millions out of the nhs...There needs to be a far better waiting list system, a national database....The social care and heath trust should all merge into one just as theyve done in scotland. Theres billions of unclaimed funds from various insurance and health policies left on the floor in the NHS too...The list goes on and on as do the waiting lists for thousands of innocent people who have paid all their dues and sit silently in pain as this tragedy escalates

The bit in bold is certainly correct. As for too many managers - I'm not sure what the situation is in Wales, but the management culture was hugely expanded by the Tories' move to an 'internal market' system, which is totally inefficient. There are far too many managers, with too much power, in England as well.

As in all systems, things could be run better - we'd need some insiders to give us specific suggestions on that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2018 at 1:15pm
the trust and the social services seem to be in a perpetual war with each other over who is responsible for each and every client and who funds what...why not merge the 2 and end the perpetual war
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2018 at 12:12am
One of the things I always felt would reduce NHS costs was to shake up GP services. I'd like to see the role of "Family Health Support Worker" created. This would be people trained in aspects of diet, exercise, sexual health & contraceptive services, substance misuse, mental health services etc who would act as an advocate for families, regularly checking their health and supporting them in maintaining healthy bodies/minds/lifestyles. Predicated on the principle that prevention is better than cure. I always felt that leisure centres should be a "free at the point of contact" service and integrated with family health to that end. My reasoning is that so many illnesses that people present with that are protracted, complicated and expensive are the consequence of poor lifestyle choices and are emminently preventable (e.g. Type 2 Diabetes, Heart Disease, many cancers etc). With the right nudge much of this could be prevented and a huge degree of pressure on the NHS relieved.

It would certainly cost to do this but could it produce a net saving? I'm sure the general better health of the population would be a net benefit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2018 at 12:21am
There is one other issue in Wales which is more contraversial. In the last 20 years around 600K ish people have moved away from Wales with another 600K ish moving in. I've seen figures on incomers putting the number of over 65's at around 200K. NHS figures show that over 65's cost about £4000 more a year than under 65's on average per person. Now I can't imagine, given the nature of outwards migration from Wales (predominantly younger economic migration) that 200K over 65's left Wales in that time period. That leads to the conclusion that our population of over 65's has increased due to retiree's moving here. If you take those figures, every 25K of extra over 65's we've accumulated costs the Welsh NHS an extra £100M a year. That is a heck of a lot of money that has to come out of the Welsh budget. Put quite simply - we can't afford that. I'm open to correction here, but I don't believe we get extra funds to cover this. That is a big financial pressure to absorb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2018 at 1:50pm
Good point, since 1991 Welsh population rose 225,000

The 19 to 642 went up 130,000  ish
the over 65s went up 150,000 ish
the 0 to 15 year olds fell 30,000+

Definitely a big factor 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2018 at 1:52pm
https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Population-and-Migration/Population/Estimates/nationallevelpopulationestimates-by-year-age-ukcountry
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