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Sir Keir Starmer

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reesytheexile View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2020 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Kier flip flop starmer has done it again

Over what?

Indeed?🤔🤨
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2020 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Genuine questions - why do people find stopping the signing of a song that celebrates conquering a significant proportion of the world’s population, and treating the people of those countries as an inferior race of humans disrespectful towards WW2 veterans who fought against an enemy that did just that?
Also to those that think of this as changing history, do you also believe that the Germans did that at the end of WW2 when they stopped singing the first two verses of their national anthem as it was incompatible with the vision of the country they wanted to build.
Don’t mean to offend anyone, just interested in how people with different beliefs to mine see this matter.

Strangely it was the Nazis who were into censorship, it's a slippery slope going down this road for the woke lefties
Stopping two songs from being sung at a particular event is hardly censorship. There’d be nothing stopping people from signing those songs anywhere else.

It is censorship. Its added to the ever growing list of things that are censored or are now off limits for discussion.

Cutting to the chase: is our colonial past something to be proud about or to be ashamed of? And who decides this? I think these are the real two questions we're actually discussing, with fairly trivial examples such as a song catching the public's attention. If the example is relatively minor then it's quite easy to describe it as PC correctness gone mad.

I think also people have to consider how inclusive, or not, certain aspects of British history are. So it can mean something very different to someone Caucasian compared to British Asian, for example (yes, I know an exceptionally loose term). Yet, in my view, both groups are equally British. That is the third question which rarely gets brought up due to the obvious sensitivity: how do people view each other in terms of Britishness? Does it even matter? (Forth question)

Britain has changed and perhaps things need to change to reflect that and make it more inclusive and modern. Things have changed before, inclusion of verses about traitorous Scots and so on. 

I'm pro discourse on these topics - our history, good and bad, and from different points of view - and do completely accept the twitter waves of criticism are just as bad. In fact, it's an irony that those groups would end up whitewashing British history if they did indeed cancel all the bad bits!

Basically, I think part of the problem is that due to these things rapidly becoming very dangerous ground for politicians and well, everyone, due to racial issues and the fact the press would annihilate them you rarely get the actual issues discussed; more just soft stories about songs. Over-sensitivity and the rise of the "illiberal liberal" is part of the problem at the moment for sure, feeds into the prejudice and fear of the nationalistic right and entrenches both in their viewpoints.

On the other hand, I've seen those of the Spiked! variety basically write severely prejudiced hate speech and then defend it as "free speech" or "just an opinion". I think we need to sort out our laws on free speech and make it clearer what is/isn't legal personally (and where comedy fits into this) as our current law is too confusing because it is a mix of several acts. Sweden I think sets it out clearer (I read one of the Millennium series recently, I don't actually know much).

Ive neevr met anyone who is offended by these songs. I have also many asians friends and acquaintaces and they talk more about tightening immigration to me than any other people Ive met. I feel often on all sides its individuals who wish to stoke up trouble deliberately to create a platform for themselves. Instead of dictating to the people, those in the westminster bubble needs to actual LISTEN to the people across the country. They also need to stop misinterpreting them.

I see for labour leader contender angela raynor was reprimanded for calling a a tory scum in parliament today, loses her rag like that isnt going to help starmer or labour.

what do you all make of the current manchester impasse?



Edited by roy munster - 21 October 2020 at 10:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 10:58am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Ive neevr met anyone who is offended by these songs. I have also many asians friends and acquaintaces and they talk more about tightening immigration to me than any other people Ive met. I feel often on all sides its individuals who wish to stoke up trouble deliberately to create a platform for themselves. Instead of dictating to the people, those in the westminster bubble needs to actual LISTEN to the people across the country. They also need to stop misinterpreting them.

I see for labour leader contender angela raynor was reprimanded for calling a a tory scum in parliament today, loses her rag like that isnt going to help starmer or labour.

what do you all make of the current manchester impasse?


I know it's generalising but I've always found Manchester to have an attitude and then you do have this Labour mayor versus Conservative government clash. But you can be sure if London was tier 3 the Government would be doing a LOT more to support regions in this situation. Not a population issue either: tier 3 at present includes Manchester, Liverpool plus Sheffield will be soon - together this is a few million.

I think this pandemic is making a few things a lot more apparent. Hypocrisy, the wealth gap, london centrism, prolonged under-funding of the NHS, Tory corruption (very profitable deals to their mates for doing largely [beep] all. during a pandemic of all times), ineptitude for actual governing, lack of accountability, North/South divide, the stupidity of people voting in Tory MPs just because of Brexit (guys, are you honestly surprised they don't give a crap about the poor???). I'll be fair as well and say political point scoring for opposition parties, lack of any alternative presented only hindsight criticism, the stupidness of our sensationalist press - when any form of lockdown tightening is decided one group say "it's an assault on our economy and attack on our civil liberties" while another group claim "this is nowhere near far enough". In some ways, the Government can't win whatever they do so they may as well be as self-serving as possible and just look after their own rich backers and careers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 11:14am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Ive neevr met anyone who is offended by these songs. I have also many asians friends and acquaintaces and they talk more about tightening immigration to me than any other people Ive met. I feel often on all sides its individuals who wish to stoke up trouble deliberately to create a platform for themselves. Instead of dictating to the people, those in the westminster bubble needs to actual LISTEN to the people across the country. They also need to stop misinterpreting them.

I see for labour leader contender angela raynor was reprimanded for calling a a tory scum in parliament today, loses her rag like that isnt going to help starmer or labour.

what do you all make of the current manchester impasse?




I know it's generalising but I've always found Manchester to have an attitude and then you do have this Labour mayor versus Conservative government clash. But you can be sure if London was tier 3 the Government would be doing a LOT more to support regions in this situation. Not a population issue either: tier 3 at present includes Manchester, Liverpool plus Sheffield will be soon - together this is a few million.

I think this pandemic is making a few things a lot more apparent. Hypocrisy, the wealth gap, london centrism, prolonged under-funding of the NHS, Tory corruption (very profitable deals to their mates for doing largely [beep] all. during a pandemic of all times), ineptitude for actual governing, lack of accountability, North/South divide, the stupidity of people voting in Tory MPs just because of Brexit (guys, are you honestly surprised they don't give a crap about the poor???). I'll be fair as well and say political point scoring for opposition parties, lack of any alternative presented only hindsight criticism, the stupidness of our sensationalist press - when any form of lockdown tightening is decided one group say "it's an assault on our economy and attack on our civil liberties" while another group claim "this is nowhere near far enough". In some ways, the Government can't win whatever they do so they may as well be as self-serving as possible and just look after their own rich backers and careers.

Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 11:26am
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Ive neevr met anyone who is offended by these songs. I have also many asians friends and acquaintaces and they talk more about tightening immigration to me than any other people Ive met. I feel often on all sides its individuals who wish to stoke up trouble deliberately to create a platform for themselves. Instead of dictating to the people, those in the westminster bubble needs to actual LISTEN to the people across the country. They also need to stop misinterpreting them.

I see for labour leader contender angela raynor was reprimanded for calling a a tory scum in parliament today, loses her rag like that isnt going to help starmer or labour.

what do you all make of the current manchester impasse?




I know it's generalising but I've always found Manchester to have an attitude and then you do have this Labour mayor versus Conservative government clash. But you can be sure if London was tier 3 the Government would be doing a LOT more to support regions in this situation. Not a population issue either: tier 3 at present includes Manchester, Liverpool plus Sheffield will be soon - together this is a few million.

I think this pandemic is making a few things a lot more apparent. Hypocrisy, the wealth gap, london centrism, prolonged under-funding of the NHS, Tory corruption (very profitable deals to their mates for doing largely [beep] all. during a pandemic of all times), ineptitude for actual governing, lack of accountability, North/South divide, the stupidity of people voting in Tory MPs just because of Brexit (guys, are you honestly surprised they don't give a crap about the poor???). I'll be fair as well and say political point scoring for opposition parties, lack of any alternative presented only hindsight criticism, the stupidness of our sensationalist press - when any form of lockdown tightening is decided one group say "it's an assault on our economy and attack on our civil liberties" while another group claim "this is nowhere near far enough". In some ways, the Government can't win whatever they do so they may as well be as self-serving as possible and just look after their own rich backers and careers.

Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol

I don’t know  him  other than via his TV and written works over the years. I have  always considered him  a moderate and measured voice in the Labour Party. The palpable anger or frustration in his voice the other day looked like  passion not grand standing at all . He obviously dislikes the Government but then I guess he is not alone in that respect 😂  The main outcome for me is that the decisions have been taken and we all hope that they work for everyone’s sake but of course, we don’t know.


Edited by reesytheexile - 22 October 2020 at 11:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 11:40am
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

 
Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol

I think it's always going to be the case different people will have different opinions on it. Leadership is listening to those opinions and deciding the best course of action. It's silly, I hear people saying things like "well, if scientists have different views that means we don't really know which is best, do we?". This ignores the concept that scientists frequently have different views but at least rely on facts (or, more correctly, evidence) to back them up and often (eventually) a consensus is reached.

My personal opinion is that too much weight is given to personal opinions at this point in history. You can always find a view on both sides of an argument, claim or news story - doesn't mean they have equal merit whatsoever. The BBC and media in general have fallen into the trap of prioritising balance and entertainment over factual accuracy, evidence and logic. Why? Because the latter is boring and doesn't make good telly or a good story or tweet or whatever. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 4:18pm
In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/

That article is so biased, their a far left media, that's like saying the mail is balanced 😂

Edited by BlackwoodScarlet - 22 October 2020 at 4:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/

That article is so biased, their a far left media, that's like saying the mail is balanced 😂

Mmm but with even less regulation. This is always my issue with clicking on Ffidel's sorry Dai's links to these blogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

[QUOTE=Dai Guevara] In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/

That article is so biased, their a far left media, that's like saying the mail is balanced 😂


Mmm but with even less regulation. This is always my issue with clicking on Ffidel's sorry Dai's links to these blogs.
[/QUOTE
All media has a bias , let's be honest the leadership in the UK is terrible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

[QUOTE=Dai Guevara] In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/

That article is so biased, their a far left media, that's like saying the mail is balanced 😂


Mmm but with even less regulation. This is always my issue with clicking on Ffidel's sorry Dai's links to these blogs.
[/QUOTE
All media has a bias , let's be honest the leadership in the UK is terrible

Leadership or readership? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Ive neevr met anyone who is offended by these songs. I have also many asians friends and acquaintaces and they talk more about tightening immigration to me than any other people Ive met. I feel often on all sides its individuals who wish to stoke up trouble deliberately to create a platform for themselves. Instead of dictating to the people, those in the westminster bubble needs to actual LISTEN to the people across the country. They also need to stop misinterpreting them.

I see for labour leader contender angela raynor was reprimanded for calling a a tory scum in parliament today, loses her rag like that isnt going to help starmer or labour.

what do you all make of the current manchester impasse?




I know it's generalising but I've always found Manchester to have an attitude and then you do have this Labour mayor versus Conservative government clash. But you can be sure if London was tier 3 the Government would be doing a LOT more to support regions in this situation. Not a population issue either: tier 3 at present includes Manchester, Liverpool plus Sheffield will be soon - together this is a few million.

I think this pandemic is making a few things a lot more apparent. Hypocrisy, the wealth gap, london centrism, prolonged under-funding of the NHS, Tory corruption (very profitable deals to their mates for doing largely [beep] all. during a pandemic of all times), ineptitude for actual governing, lack of accountability, North/South divide, the stupidity of people voting in Tory MPs just because of Brexit (guys, are you honestly surprised they don't give a crap about the poor???). I'll be fair as well and say political point scoring for opposition parties, lack of any alternative presented only hindsight criticism, the stupidness of our sensationalist press - when any form of lockdown tightening is decided one group say "it's an assault on our economy and attack on our civil liberties" while another group claim "this is nowhere near far enough". In some ways, the Government can't win whatever they do so they may as well be as self-serving as possible and just look after their own rich backers and careers.

Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol
Why?because jenryck said so?he so slippery he makes a snake feel like sandpaper.Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

In general people seem to know very little about Starmer and the media have done little to enlighten us as to what he stands for. The following article attempts to shed a little light on this-

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/21/labour-under-keir-starmer/

That article is so biased, their a far left media, that's like saying the mail is balanced 😂


Mmm but with even less regulation. This is always my issue with clicking on Ffidel's sorry Dai's links to these blogs.


So which bits are wrong/unfair/lies? Perhaps you only feel it is outrageous because you've been brainwashed by the mainstream media which unfortunately now includes the Guardian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

 
Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol

I think it's always going to be the case different people will have different opinions on it. Leadership is listening to those opinions and deciding the best course of action. It's silly, I hear people saying things like "well, if scientists have different views that means we don't really know which is best, do we?". This ignores the concept that scientists frequently have different views but at least rely on facts (or, more correctly, evidence) to back them up and often (eventually) a consensus is reached.

My personal opinion is that too much weight is given to personal opinions at this point in history. You can always find a view on both sides of an argument, claim or news story - doesn't mean they have equal merit whatsoever. The BBC and media in general have fallen into the trap of prioritising balance and entertainment over factual accuracy, evidence and logic. Why? Because the latter is boring and doesn't make good telly or a good story or tweet or whatever. 

I agree about the bbc and the lack of basic factual accuracy and evidence...surely that should come first followed by opinion based on the facts. Some so called facts are harder to corroborate with economic predictions etc

dont you think its utterly bozarre that Uk has built over 40,000 new hospital beds and used virtually none of them to quarantine covid infected patients?
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

 
Labour haven't got a clue different ministers saying different things, Burnham gas now been exposed as a liar with his staged finding out on live TV lol

I think it's always going to be the case different people will have different opinions on it. Leadership is listening to those opinions and deciding the best course of action. It's silly, I hear people saying things like "well, if scientists have different views that means we don't really know which is best, do we?". This ignores the concept that scientists frequently have different views but at least rely on facts (or, more correctly, evidence) to back them up and often (eventually) a consensus is reached.

My personal opinion is that too much weight is given to personal opinions at this point in history. You can always find a view on both sides of an argument, claim or news story - doesn't mean they have equal merit whatsoever. The BBC and media in general have fallen into the trap of prioritising balance and entertainment over factual accuracy, evidence and logic. Why? Because the latter is boring and doesn't make good telly or a good story or tweet or whatever. 

I agree about the bbc and the lack of basic factual accuracy and evidence...surely that should come first followed by opinion based on the facts. Some so called facts are harder to corroborate with economic predictions etc

dont you think its utterly bozarre that Uk has built over 40,000 new hospital beds and used virtually none of them to quarantine covid infected patients?
I believe it’s down to staffing issues. If they were used the hospitals would become unsafe because of staff shortage. Obviously that would be the least worst option if the hospitals were overwhelmed during a peak of the pandemic but otherwise my guess would be that we’d need more NHS staff before using the field hospitals to clear up waiting lists or treat any covid patients that needed any treatment.


Edited by Jones2004 - 22 October 2020 at 6:10pm
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