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Jones2004 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2020 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I agree with the pay freeze ,  people are losing jobs hand over fist in the private sector
 
to give private sector workers and civil servants  a rise would go down like a lead ballon
 
especially when  there plenty    on full pay and doing nothing for large chunks of the lockdown and I know that doesn't apply to all of the staff
 
Cutting foreign aid is totally logical when our own health service and care services is in dire need of extra finances
 
The govt first duty is to it's own people as harsh as that sounds. Frankly I'd have scrapped it all together ,  that £15 billion is needed in the uk at the moment
 
It may have been a manifesto promise at election time but we weren't in the midst of a pandemic and recession then, times change policies must change to

Spot on. Britain first. 
While I can understand the argument that Britain should come first (while not necessarily agreeing with it) what I would say is that as far as I’m aware a proportion of the foreign aid budget is spent on vaccination programs. If those come under threat the risk of a virus spreading will be exasperated which could cause problems here in the UK if Covid or any other disease returns after we have it under control. That would then result in a much greater hit to the treasury than what they save by cutting the foreign aid budget.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2020 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

A lot of the covid debt is actually to the Bank of England - they print more money and buy the government debt with it. As long as inflation doesn’t rise it’s not a huge problem if they continue to do that (and it doesn’t seem likely that inflation will rise). In terms of repaying the debt I’d argue that as interest rates are so low currently (about 20 times lower than in 2008) we shouldn’t worry particularly about how much we borrow as we can stagger the repayments for as long as the government likes. What we should worry a lot more about is getting the economy back up to pre-covid levels as soon as possible (after the public health crisis has subsided), which is why I believe the freezing of public sector workers’ wages is a bad decision as it will mean they spend less money, resulting in lower economic growth.

Thanks, that sounds reassuring actually. Although the money would still need to be repaid as you say above? Also, is there a risk of currency devaluation internationally? It sounds like a slight gamble on inflation as well but I understand a bit better now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2020 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

A lot of the covid debt is actually to the Bank of England - they print more money and buy the government debt with it. As long as inflation doesn’t rise it’s not a huge problem if they continue to do that (and it doesn’t seem likely that inflation will rise). In terms of repaying the debt I’d argue that as interest rates are so low currently (about 20 times lower than in 2008) we shouldn’t worry particularly about how much we borrow as we can stagger the repayments for as long as the government likes. What we should worry a lot more about is getting the economy back up to pre-covid levels as soon as possible (after the public health crisis has subsided), which is why I believe the freezing of public sector workers’ wages is a bad decision as it will mean they spend less money, resulting in lower economic growth.
Thanks, that sounds reassuring actually. Although the money would still need to be repaid as you say above? Also, is there a risk of currency devaluation internationally? It sounds like a slight gamble on inflation as well but I understand a bit better now.
I’m not completely sure how the money is repaid but I do know that the money that was borrowed to pay off slave owners wasn’t repaid fully until 2015. I believe that they’ve changed how they repay the debt since then but even now I believe you could theoretically just rollover the debt (as in borrow more to repay the money that was initially borrowed!) for as long as you want. In that time the debt as a percentage of GDP would naturally decrease (as long as GDP growth is higher than interest rates - which it is most of the time.)  

This link should explain it a bit better-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletabroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 7:41am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:


I agree with the pay freeze ,  people are losing jobs hand over fist in the private sector
 
to give private sector workers and civil servants  a rise would go down like a lead ballon
 
especially when  there plenty    on full pay and doing nothing for large chunks of the lockdown and I know that doesn't apply to all of the staff
 
Cutting foreign aid is totally logical when our own health service and care services is in dire need of extra finances
 
The govt first duty is to it's own people as harsh as that sounds. Frankly I'd have scrapped it all together ,  that £15 billion is needed in the uk at the moment
 
It may have been a manifesto promise at election time but we weren't in the midst of a pandemic and recession then, times change policies must change to


Yet again hit the public sector with a pay freeze having pity on the private sector. I do not see anyone championing the cause when we have below inflation rises (as we do every year) compared to the private sector I do not see MP's and the general community defending the rights of public sector employees to have equal rises. Yet in times like this when we are working all the way through COVID we should now have a pay freeze. I would love to be furloughed for a rest, I and thousands like me in the MOJ who have to cope with incompetent interference from senior civil servants, a clientele who have no concept of social distancing let alone social manners have had to live and work face to face being spat at assaulted etc. during a normal day let alone compounded by COVID where the restrictions in our work place have exacerbated every single crisis both personal and social and now that the debt is high due to having furloughed millions in the private sector you want us who have worked all the way through to pay for it!! no I do not think it’s fair, and if anyone is interested or think it is a gold plated job as MP's like to spout when the Pay review body ( as we have no rights to challenge our rises)there are still hundreds of vacancies so please come and join you will find out why we have vacancies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 8:19am
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:


I agree with the pay freeze ,  people are losing jobs hand over fist in the private sector
 
to give private sector workers and civil servants  a rise would go down like a lead ballon
 
especially when  there plenty    on full pay and doing nothing for large chunks of the lockdown and I know that doesn't apply to all of the staff
 
Cutting foreign aid is totally logical when our own health service and care services is in dire need of extra finances
 
The govt first duty is to it's own people as harsh as that sounds. Frankly I'd have scrapped it all together ,  that £15 billion is needed in the uk at the moment
 
It may have been a manifesto promise at election time but we weren't in the midst of a pandemic and recession then, times change policies must change to


Yet again hit the public sector with a pay freeze having pity on the private sector. I do not see anyone championing the cause when we have below inflation rises (as we do every year) compared to the private sector I do not see MP's and the general community defending the rights of public sector employees to have equal rises. Yet in times like this when we are working all the way through COVID we should now have a pay freeze. I would love to be furloughed for a rest, I and thousands like me in the MOJ who have to cope with incompetent interference from senior civil servants, a clientele who have no concept of social distancing let alone social manners have had to live and work face to face being spat at assaulted etc. during a normal day let alone compounded by COVID where the restrictions in our work place have exacerbated every single crisis both personal and social and now that the debt is high due to having furloughed millions in the private sector you want us who have worked all the way through to pay for it!! no I do not think it’s fair, and if anyone is interested or think it is a gold plated job as MP's like to spout when the Pay review body ( as we have no rights to challenge our rises)there are still hundreds of vacancies so please come and join you will find out why we have vacancies.

Your anger is summed up very well by your post and you make some very understandable & pertinent comments. Rest assured the private sector workers are going to feel the pain. I don't think we are talking pay freezes pain more like pay gone pain as in redundancies. It, of course, is very easy for me to comment as I am on a pension but I have serious concerns about the levels of debt being taken on and some commentators suggesting that, in reality, its only a paper exercise as in print some more money. The financial effects of this pandemic will be with us for decades & will limit the abilities of governments throughout the World.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 9:58am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Your anger is summed up very well by your post and you make some very understandable & pertinent comments. Rest assured the private sector workers are going to feel the pain. I don't think we are talking pay freezes pain more like pay gone pain as in redundancies. It, of course, is very easy for me to comment as I am on a pension but I have serious concerns about the levels of debt being taken on and some commentators suggesting that, in reality, its only a paper exercise as in print some more money. The financial effects of this pandemic will be with us for decades & will limit the abilities of governments throughout the World.
I guess that you’re referring to me in that, but I’ve never even pretended that it’s as simple as print some more money. What I am saying however is that most of the debt the government has taken on this year has been from money printed from the Bank of England - that is a fact. What I also believe is that a lot of the problems that come from borrowing too much are negated because of historically low interest rates (the government are able to take on 50 year loans at 0.6% annual interest rates). I also believe that the problems of not borrowing far outweigh the problems of borrowing as much as we are currently doing. Furthermore while the overall debt is high, it is not as historically high as some make out. The debt is currently around a 100% of GDP, while at the end of our last comparable crisis (WW2) the debt was 250% of GDP, so talk of the treasury maxing out its credit cards are certainly premature.
Of course, as you say the effects of this borrowing will remain with us for decades, however the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and a return to austerity are so much worse in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I agree with the pay freeze ,  people are losing jobs hand over fist in the private sector
 
to give private sector workers and civil servants  a rise would go down like a lead ballon
 
especially when  there plenty    on full pay and doing nothing for large chunks of the lockdown and I know that doesn't apply to all of the staff
 
Cutting foreign aid is totally logical when our own health service and care services is in dire need of extra finances
 
The govt first duty is to it's own people as harsh as that sounds. Frankly I'd have scrapped it all together ,  that £15 billion is needed in the uk at the moment
 
It may have been a manifesto promise at election time but we weren't in the midst of a pandemic and recession then, times change policies must change to

Spot on. Britain first. 
While I can understand the argument that Britain should come first (while not necessarily agreeing with it) what I would say is that as far as I’m aware a proportion of the foreign aid budget is spent on vaccination programs. If those come under threat the risk of a virus spreading will be exasperated which could cause problems here in the UK if Covid or any other disease returns after we have it under control. That would then result in a much greater hit to the treasury than what they save by cutting the foreign aid budget.
 
we are still spending £10 billion that is a on foreign aid, if that was all going on food or vaccinations I'd say fine but plenty  of it appears to be wasted on spurious nonsense.
 
I'm a cynic by nature and I know there are many great people with only the best motives involved in aid workers but there are also some real wrongs un's who bleed the system dry
 
It's a balancing act to ensure we help those who need it and not end up funding shysters or even worse dictators and war lords
 
Or maybe I'm becoming a bitter old daily mail reader in my old age LOL
 
 
 
 


Edited by RR1972 - 27 November 2020 at 11:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 11:23am
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:


I agree with the pay freeze ,  people are losing jobs hand over fist in the private sector
 
to give private sector workers and civil servants  a rise would go down like a lead ballon
 
especially when  there plenty    on full pay and doing nothing for large chunks of the lockdown and I know that doesn't apply to all of the staff
 
Cutting foreign aid is totally logical when our own health service and care services is in dire need of extra finances
 
The govt first duty is to it's own people as harsh as that sounds. Frankly I'd have scrapped it all together ,  that £15 billion is needed in the uk at the moment
 
It may have been a manifesto promise at election time but we weren't in the midst of a pandemic and recession then, times change policies must change to


Yet again hit the public sector with a pay freeze having pity on the private sector. I do not see anyone championing the cause when we have below inflation rises (as we do every year) compared to the private sector I do not see MP's and the general community defending the rights of public sector employees to have equal rises. Yet in times like this when we are working all the way through COVID we should now have a pay freeze. I would love to be furloughed for a rest, I and thousands like me in the MOJ who have to cope with incompetent interference from senior civil servants, a clientele who have no concept of social distancing let alone social manners have had to live and work face to face being spat at assaulted etc. during a normal day let alone compounded by COVID where the restrictions in our work place have exacerbated every single crisis both personal and social and now that the debt is high due to having furloughed millions in the private sector you want us who have worked all the way through to pay for it!! no I do not think it’s fair, and if anyone is interested or think it is a gold plated job as MP's like to spout when the Pay review body ( as we have no rights to challenge our rises)there are still hundreds of vacancies so please come and join you will find out why we have vacancies.
 
 
No one least of all me would knock the police, or armed forces or the nhs during this time
 
Like you I'm ex forces and I appreciate every thing our men and women go through same for the coppers on the beat who have to deal with public order incidents every day
 
 
But yes there are plenty of civil servants who worked from home during the pandemic,
 
I personally know staff in the dvla and land reg who were sat at home on full pay without even a computer and didn't do a tap for several weeks.
 
Why should they be getting a rise?
 
I have no interest in working for the MOJ, it's not something I am cut out for or in all likelihood capable of doing and as I said I respect the job you do
 
I would gladly see the police and more so the armed forces get a pay rise and better care post leaving the services
 
 
But at the moment I don't see how civil servants and i was referring more to the clerical side of things eg the land reg the dvla, the tax office etc  can expect more money, when the people who fund them are likely to be losing their jobs
 
Civil servants do tend to have better working conditions then many in the private sector to
 
better pensions, more sick days, flexi time etc, so it's not all hardship for them
 
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the hospitality industry who right now  are facing unemployment and wondering where their next pay cheque is coming from  who would swop places with them in an instant
 
 


Edited by RR1972 - 27 November 2020 at 11:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Your anger is summed up very well by your post and you make some very understandable & pertinent comments. Rest assured the private sector workers are going to feel the pain. I don't think we are talking pay freezes pain more like pay gone pain as in redundancies. It, of course, is very easy for me to comment as I am on a pension but I have serious concerns about the levels of debt being taken on and some commentators suggesting that, in reality, its only a paper exercise as in print some more money. The financial effects of this pandemic will be with us for decades & will limit the abilities of governments throughout the World.
I guess that you’re referring to me in that, but I’ve never even pretended that it’s as simple as print some more money. What I am saying however is that most of the debt the government has taken on this year has been from money printed from the Bank of England - that is a fact. What I also believe is that a lot of the problems that come from borrowing too much are negated because of historically low interest rates (the government are able to take on 50 year loans at 0.6% annual interest rates). I also believe that the problems of not borrowing far outweigh the problems of borrowing as much as we are currently doing. Furthermore while the overall debt is high, it is not as historically high as some make out. The debt is currently around a 100% of GDP, while at the end of our last comparable crisis (WW2) the debt was 250% of GDP, so talk of the treasury maxing out its credit cards are certainly premature.
Of course, as you say the effects of this borrowing will remain with us for decades, however the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and a return to austerity are so much worse in my opinion.

No Jones 2004 I was not referring to you but I can see why you thought that - my apologies. Nothing you said I find at all controversial. You correctly point out that debt levels are nowhere near what they were after the 2nd World war but just to be talking in that league shows us how large a problem this borrowing will create. 

Just like the balancing act the government have to perform between health and economy the next challenge of balancing borrowing and unemployment/poverty looms large. I have some faith that Sunak is the right man for the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 2:01pm
Companies dont seem to be getting any payments for lost profits?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Your anger is summed up very well by your post and you make some very understandable & pertinent comments. Rest assured the private sector workers are going to feel the pain. I don't think we are talking pay freezes pain more like pay gone pain as in redundancies. It, of course, is very easy for me to comment as I am on a pension but I have serious concerns about the levels of debt being taken on and some commentators suggesting that, in reality, its only a paper exercise as in print some more money. The financial effects of this pandemic will be with us for decades & will limit the abilities of governments throughout the World.
I guess that you’re referring to me in that, but I’ve never even pretended that it’s as simple as print some more money. What I am saying however is that most of the debt the government has taken on this year has been from money printed from the Bank of England - that is a fact. What I also believe is that a lot of the problems that come from borrowing too much are negated because of historically low interest rates (the government are able to take on 50 year loans at 0.6% annual interest rates). I also believe that the problems of not borrowing far outweigh the problems of borrowing as much as we are currently doing. Furthermore while the overall debt is high, it is not as historically high as some make out. The debt is currently around a 100% of GDP, while at the end of our last comparable crisis (WW2) the debt was 250% of GDP, so talk of the treasury maxing out its credit cards are certainly premature.
Of course, as you say the effects of this borrowing will remain with us for decades, however the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and a return to austerity are so much worse in my opinion.

No Jones 2004 I was not referring to you but I can see why you thought that - my apologies. Nothing you said I find at all controversial. You correctly point out that debt levels are nowhere near what they were after the 2nd World war but just to be talking in that league shows us how large a problem this borrowing will create. 

Just like the balancing act the government have to perform between health and economy the next challenge of balancing borrowing and unemployment/poverty looms large. I have some faith that Sunak is the right man for the job.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s hope that you’re correct that Sunak’s the right man for the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2020 at 2:42pm
Cutting billions off overseas aid while spending billions more on armament to use overseas is typical of the mentality that created the English "Empire" and exploited and enslaved vast regions through military superiority and cruel dictatorships (starting with your very own country which presumably you will be supporting against our oppressors tomorrow)
Tories effortlessly going back to basics now they have a spineless opposition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2020 at 8:39pm
https://nation.cymru/news/boris-johnson-accused-of-inflicting-rail-betrayal-on-wales-over-lack-of-transport-spending/
I find this totally incredible from the UK government. Putting aside for one moment whether we believe that the Welsh Government have spent their budget wisely, or if HS2 is good value for money; it is utterly disgraceful that HS2 has been classified as an England and Wales project. It clearly has no benefit for the Welsh economy and with Welsh infrastructure already hugely under-funded it is infuriating that we are missing out on vital funding when Scotland are NI are receiving consequential money from this project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2020 at 12:35pm
[QUOTE=Jones2004] https://nation.cymru/news/boris-johnson-accused-of-inflicting-rail-betrayal-on-wales-over-lack-of-transport-spending/
I find this totally incredible from the UK government. Putting aside for one moment whether we believe that the Welsh Government have spent their budget wisely, or if HS2 is good value for money; it is utterly disgraceful that HS2 has been classified as an England and Wales project. It clearly has no benefit for the Welsh economy and with Welsh infrastructure already hugely under-funded it is infuriating that we are missing out on vital funding when Scotland are NI are receiving consequential money from this project.
Well the WAG i.e Dripford wasted 140 million by closing down the M4 relief road , that after a study done under labour was said to be needed , he set up a mate with another few millions of pounds to look at alternatives , who have come up with the idea of spending 88 million on 6 new train stations and public transport
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2020 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by BlackwoodScarlet BlackwoodScarlet wrote:

[QUOTE=Jones2004] https://nation.cymru/news/boris-johnson-accused-of-inflicting-rail-betrayal-on-wales-over-lack-of-transport-spending/
I find this totally incredible from the UK government. Putting aside for one moment whether we believe that the Welsh Government have spent their budget wisely, or if HS2 is good value for money; it is utterly disgraceful that HS2 has been classified as an England and Wales project. It clearly has no benefit for the Welsh economy and with Welsh infrastructure already hugely under-funded it is infuriating that we are missing out on vital funding when Scotland are NI are receiving consequential money from this project.
Well the WAG i.e Dripford wasted 140 million by closing down the M4 relief road , that after a study done under labour was said to be needed , he set up a mate with another few millions of pounds to look at alternatives , who have come up with the idea of spending 88 million on 6 new train stations and public transport

That's what Johnson said in response to the criticism at PMQs and is classic whataboutism. It's getting us nowhere as it doesn't provide any answer, explanation or justification when something is queried. 


Edited by dr_martinov - 03 December 2020 at 1:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2020 at 3:04pm
The hm2 has been a disgrace from day 1, I was gutted when corbyn backed it as it gave the anti hs2 mob no leader to back them. Now the fact its seeing wales get robbed to build it in england only just rubs salt in the wounds, the whole thing stinks.


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