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reesytheexile View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Does Theresa May often refer to her party in full as the "Conservative and Unionist party", as she just did?
No, it was deliberate.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedZep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:13pm
During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

There are a few out there who might fit the bill:

Vladimir Putin?
Assad?
Kim Jong-un?

State your preference, please...

Actually, what I'd prefer to a 'strong' leader is a 'collegiate' one, who is willing to listen to members of his own party and members of the public, before coming to a policy decision  as opposed to someone who retreats to a bunker with a few trusted lieutenants and comes out with the political equivalent of the Ten Commandments.

I have total contempt for the 'strong leader' - that sort of thinking produced Hitler and Stalin, FFS! (FWIW, the 'best' PM in my lifetime was Harold Wilson - who managed to run a government riven by factions and yet kept the show on the road, whilst bringing in many excellent policies. Of course, plenty of mistakes were made as well, but the balance was definitely positive.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.
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RedZep View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedZep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:25pm
Aber, if you seriously think I'm advocating a mass-murdering megalomaniac in charge of the country then you're even more ga-ga than previously thought. My post is reference to strong leadership within a democracy and not a dictatorship, as you well know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 3:37pm
Strong leaderships is good when that leader has good moral judgement and the intelligence to speak to a range of differing opinions, to delegate well and listen to his/her advisors and to the electorate. The trouble with an egotist like maggie thatcher milk snatcher or warmonger blair, is even when they are hopelessly wrong they carry on regardless to avoid showing any weakness.

Edited by roy munster - 09 June 2017 at 3:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Can't believe Llanelli didn't become a Tory seat.

Stuff the Ospreys.
Mash and stifle Leinster.
Obliterate Munster.

May is brilliant.

Wouldn't you want to vote for 5 more years like that?๐Ÿ˜Ž๐Ÿ˜‰
You sound like Alistair Cambell the king of spinย Wink
Never been on a Lions Tour, or supported Burnley.

You must be mistaken, sir.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 5:01pm
Vote Zep โŽ

The guy with a Whole Lotta Love

Edited by Eastern outpost - 09 June 2017 at 5:01pm
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 7:17pm
One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2017 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2017 at 5:58am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.

Good points. 22 councils is too many. The CEO's are way overpaid too. We see masses of people so angry demanding more money is spent on public services , they should be just as angry about the mindless waste of public money throughout Wales 


Edited by roy munster - 10 June 2017 at 5:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

Aber, if you seriously think I'm advocating a mass-murdering megalomaniac in charge of the country then you're even more ga-ga than previously thought. My post is reference to strong leadership within a democracy and not a dictatorship, as you well know.

Well. maybe... but the term 'strong leader' does rather make me puke.

Who looks stronger now, after the election?

'Vote for the' Theresa May party?

or collegiate further-ed lecturer type Mr Corbyn?

just asking, like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Strong leaderships is good when that leader has good moral judgement and the intelligence to speak to a range of differing opinions, to delegate well and listen to his/her advisors and to the electorate. The trouble with an egotist like maggie thatcher milk snatcher or warmonger blair, is even when they are hopelessly wrong they carry on regardless to avoid showing any weakness.

Quite so, Roy - my point summarised in a nutshell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

One thing I know - the Welsh economy is putting out around 70% of the GDP per head of the UK average and Wales needs careful, deliberate and planned investment to turn this around. Not one of the parties has a coherent plan or vision and not even the ambition to achieve this. We have a limited budget that's wasted on 22 Councils with all the attendant managers and chief execs for a country of 3 million compared to a single authority in a big english city.

I also found it very hard to vote. I really struggled for positive reasons.

Good points. 22 councils is too many. The CEO's are way overpaid too. We see masses of people so angry demanding more money is spent on public services , they should be just as angry about the mindless waste of public money throughout Wales 

Totally agree about there being too many councils. What was wrong with Dyfed etc.? We had far fewer then, and then it all got 're-orgainsied', even though I can't for the life of me remember a single person taking to the streets to ask for more council CEOs.

So, council numbers should be cut - and the money saved used to employ more people who actually do the work (on the roads, bins etc.) and fewer guys sitting in offices.

(In passing, I caught a report from Bury this morning which said that the council grant from central government has been cut by 50% in the last 7 years or so... councils can't go on suffering death by a thousand cuts from central government. What do they do with the money, anyway? Cut taxes for the rich, again?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2017 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

During the last 3 x years we have had a Scottish Independence Referendum, an EU Referendum and 2 x General Elections which were all supposed to "let the people decide once and for all" and put the country in a no arguments, stable condition. What we have instead is the most fractious, rudderless political system at a time when the country needs stability and leadership the most.
 
Where have all our political leaders gone? Blair, Thatcher, for all their many faults, were leaders of their parties, government and country. I would trust either of those to negotiate the EU exit on behalf of the country more than the current offering.
 
I don't want a pompous, arrogant snob who treats the electorate with utter disdain and just assumes a political outcome.
I don't want a lunatic, far Left, terrorist sympathiser whose policies will take us back to the chaos of 70's politics.
I don't want a wishy-washy wet fart of a bloke who just wants us to have yet another referendum to reverse the result of the last one.
I don't want a pious, poisonous Scot whose one-policy party is hell-bent on destroying the country I actively served for many years.
I don't want a Welsh Nationalist whose only interest is to represent less than 5% of the population.
And I certainly don't want a lying UKIP nationalist whose policies, like all forms of nationalism, are insular and built on division and hatred of others.
 
I also don't want to waste my vote.
 
The country is crying out for a strong leader. Preferably a member of the new Common Sense Party.

Fancy a run in politics Zep? Wink

Just talking with a colleague about it, I do think recently we've seen people attracted to the charisma of politicians like Trudeau, Macron and, dare I say it, Trump for offering something different and having interesting personalities. But these are different situations electing a President rather than local MP and Government and we're slightly stuck between systems in some ways.

Of course letting people decide is what it's all about but the question is what if not enough people agree, then what do you do? Along with the fundamental premise of representing the will of the people (whatever that means), our political system has evolved to try to address this but it doesn't always work, as we're now seeing... Is it time to even have new parties for example? We are seeing big splits in both Tory and Labour parties in ideologies recently and these internal power struggles have been a significant factor in getting to the mess of brexit and this election result. As you say, a lack of strong leadership in each hasn't helped.

The fundamental weakness of the British system is the 'first past the post' method of electing MPs, which must be one of the worst systems in the developed world.

Even in the UK, we now have better systems - used for the Assembly election, the Scottish and (at present) the European Parliament. The current system, though, can allow a party with as little as 35% of the vote to win a huge majority of MPs, and for the leader to claim a 'mandate' for all sorts of thoroughly divisive policies. The argument against PR is that it leads to horse trading - but in turn, it prevents the largest party from forcing through very unpopular or divisive policies. (As it is, instead of being in a situation where the Tories or Labour would form a coalition with  the Lib Dems or the SNP, we have the ludicrous situation of seeing May go on her knees to Ian Paisley's old party, the DUP, to get some sort of majority. This would not have happened under any sort of PR voting system.

Aber & Zap I think you are both calling for the same thing - strong leadership. Our country needs a strong person at the helm over the next two years. Of the personnel on offer at the moment I think May is the best. She is not what I would call an electioneering leader but she is a good politician & leader. They are very different animals. Corbyn's manifesto has many policies which I agree with - but the next two years have to be entrusted to someone with the grasp & gravitas of the situation & that is May

Point 1 - really, not. I hope I have made my position on the so-called 'strong leader' abundantly clear. As Roy says, the stubbornness of so-called strong leaders such as Thatcher and Blair have proved disastrous to our country... let alone the others I mentioned. I really would not want a Trump or a Putin!

Point 2 - I can only assume that you have been smoking something rather potent, if you really think May has come out of this election anything other than terminally damaged and holed below the waterline. She chickened out of any number of opportunities to debate with her opponents; she hid in a shack in Scotland, and many other similar venues, surrounded only by placard-waving rent-a-crowd acolytes; she came across as someone incapable of answering any question with a straight answer... i suspect she'd even have evaded a Q about how many sugars she likes in her tea, FFS! 

She has already sacked her two top advisers, in an inevitably doomed attempt to save her own skin. Absolutely no-one believes she will lead the Tories into the next election... she'll be lucky to survive six months, IMHO.

(Now, this is not personal against you - your views are normally pretty sane - but, REALLY! I do think you are being - with respect - a trifle delusional.)


Edited by aber-fan - 10 June 2017 at 2:39pm
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