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So this 'loan' then

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    Posted: 08 September 2020 at 11:15am
(Sorry if discussed elsewhere)

The WRU will take out a bank loan of £20m, with the 4 pro clubs expected to pay it back over 5 years. But with our top players expected to barely play for us in the coming season, it seems the clubs are taking all the risk, paying the players with the WRU getting the players for nothing.

Are the 3 independent pro regions happy with it? Are they expected to pay their international players for effectively -'not playing for an entire season'? Why are we just accepting this? Will the WRU pay back the Dragons loan to themselves or to the Dragons get it scott free?

I expect CRYS16 will be keeping a close eye on it.

Quote The WRU is close to securing a loan deal to keep the professional game in Wales afloat - with the money then having to be paid back by the regions.

It had been expected that the PRB pot would total some £26m for the coming season, but the impact of Covid has seen that slashed.

It’s understood it’s now down to around £3.6m.

To make up the deficit, the Union has been seeking a loan.

If secured, that money would then be distributed to the regions to enable them to pay their staff and keep going.

But it will be down to the regions to repay that loan, over a five year period.

The situation is further involved as one of the four pro teams - the Dragons - are owned by the WRU.

There will inevitably be concern among fans of the three independent regions over their teams being faced with a debt and having to pay back loans in such challenging economic times, with the burden falling on them.

A WRU spokesperson said it would be inappropriate to comment while discussions are ongoing.


[WalesOnline]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 11:32am
Welsh Government loans were prohibitively expensive in the end, and clubs not so well placed to get individual loans, so WRU brokering a single central 'Covid support' loan from NatWest makes most sense - will be OK as long as new CEO doesn't 'complicate' things - we'll know in 24 hours.

We have players on board so all cut & dried, not sure Cardiff & Dragons have yet, & who knows about the Os Confused - will prob get there in the end, but they're in the worst situation.

Once sorted, focus can turn to how funding & support has been fairly & equitably shared over lockdown, with particular attention on friends in the east... Geek



Edited by NobbySosban - 08 September 2020 at 11:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 11:36am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Welsh Government loans were prohibitively expensive in the end, and clubs not so well placed to get individual loans, so WRU brokering a single central 'Covid support' loan from NatWest makes most sense - will be OK as long as new CEO doesn't 'complicate' things - we'll know in 24 hours.

We have players on board so all cut & dried, not sure Cardiff & Dragons have yet, & who knows about the Os Confused - will prob get there in the end, but they're in the worst situation.

Once sorted, focus can turn to how funding & support has been fairly & equitably shared over lockdown, with particular attention on friends in the east... Geek


The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 11:37am
Lets not forget who this new guy is and his previous role. He's a hatchet man and it could spell a dark time for welsh pro rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 11:45am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Welsh Government loans were prohibitively expensive in the end, and clubs not so well placed to get individual loans, so WRU brokering a single central 'Covid support' loan from NatWest makes most sense - will be OK as long as new CEO doesn't 'complicate' things - we'll know in 24 hours.

We have players on board so all cut & dried, not sure Cardiff & Dragons have yet, & who knows about the Os Confused - will prob get there in the end, but they're in the worst situation.

Once sorted, focus can turn to how funding & support has been fairly & equitably shared over lockdown, with particular attention on friends in the east... Geek

Where does the CVC money come into all of this? Considering the union said some of it was going to fund other aspects but have since pulled the sevens team, I wonder if that money will essentially go toward paying this loan back (?) as i don't think the union are getting it in one lump sum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Lets not forget who this new guy is and his previous role. He's a hatchet man and it could spell a dark time for welsh pro rugby.

Steve Phillips is a finance expert - as interim CEO during a period of sever financial stress, an accountant is probably not a bad profile to have in charge. He was doing Roger's bidding before, but I don't think he's politically motivated.

If he wants the job long term, he needs to steer Welsh Rugby safely through Covid waters and wait for the new Chair & Board to give direction to the newly appointed CEO - I doubt that will be Steve Phillips, but if WGD isn't re-elected as Chair, and an amateur game-focused candidate is, things could get interesting.

That's why Mr Short has been trying so hard to establish & empower the PRB and split the Pro & Am games before the end of Davies's term - we're nearly there, but our partners are having to be dragged along for their own survival.

As things are, it's like four guys being chased barefoot by a lion - one has a protective shield and is safe; another stops to put his running shoes on. "What are you doing?" ask the other two. "You don't think you can out-run a lion, even in those, do you?!"

"I don't have to out-run the lion," he says. "I just have to out-run you two." Wink



Edited by NobbySosban - 08 September 2020 at 12:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

But where has the CVC money gone?
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

But where has the CVC money gone?
And, if the money was payment for the regions forgoing future competition revenue share, has it been misappropriated, or more bluntly, stolen?
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

But where has the CVC money gone?
And, if the money was payment for the regions forgoing future competition revenue share, has it been misappropriated, or more bluntly, stolen?
Couldn't tell you. There's very little transparency in Welsh rugby
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:07pm
CVC money is paid in annual instalments, via WRU as PRO14 shareholder. There'll be some internal wrangling over how some of it is used & allocated, but PRB should have a big say on that - indepedent board members are key to this discussion, I suspect.

They need to ensure that WRU underpins its pro players (all of whom have agreed to a ~25% pay cut, remember) and maximises their availability for Test performances. It's another arm wrestle to be had once survival is more secure, so important that CBs & Os get their acts together and the Dragons position clarified.

Without Team Wales generating the big bucks, the amateur game is ultimately screwed, although the pro teams will suffer first if funds get siphoned disproportionately into the grassroots game - it is to be hoped that the new Chair, Board & appointed CEO understand this, although getting 239 amateur clubs to not put their short-term needs first in these times of severe financial stress will be a challenge.



Edited by NobbySosban - 08 September 2020 at 1:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Lets not forget who this new guy is and his previous role. He's a hatchet man and it could spell a dark time for welsh pro rugby.

Steve Phillips is a finance expert - as interim CEO during a period of sever financial stress, an accountant is probably not a bad profile to have in charge. He was doing Roger's bidding before, but I don't think he's politically motivated.

If he wants the job long term, he needs to steer Welsh Rugby safely through Covid waters and wait for the new Chair & Board to give direction to the newly appointed CEO - I doubt that will be Steve Phillips, but if WGD isn't re-elected as Chair, and an amateur game-focused candidate is, things could get interesting.

That's why Mr Short has been trying so hard to establish & empower the PRB and split the Pro & Am games before the end of Davies's term - we're nearly there, but our partners are having to be dragged along for their own survival.

As things are, it's like four guys being chased barefoot by a lion - one has a protective shield and is safe; another stops to put his running shoes on. "What are you doing?" ask the other two. "You don't think you can out-run a lion, even in those, do you?!"

"I don't have to out-run the lion," he says. "I just have to out-run you two." Wink


Im not sure I agree with the fact its the clubs responsibility. The WRU owe us the money under the agreement, its not their fault or ours that we are in this situation BUT we are funded by them, its not an annual loan we repay. Imagine I owed you £50 and I said, heres the £50 I owe you but I want it back later?? Makes no sense at all.
On the point about the new guy, you need to research his history, if it was down to him we would have 2 regions now. He is the Doctor Beeching of the rugby world, a bean counter. Not a man to run a rugby union in my (and many other peoples) opinion. Scary times ahead.


Edited by supertaf - 08 September 2020 at 1:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

The question is though, why do we need a loan?? The union needs the loan to be able to give us the agreed funding, we never pay them back so why this time? Its a shambles.

The available funds are shared as agreed by the PRA, but the pot is all but empty - after the ring-fenced money for grassroots rugby is allocated, there's only ~£2.6m left rather than the expected/budgeted £20+m, and the agreement doesn't guarantee a minimum amount for pro rugby, so whatever's left is split accordingly.

The huge gap needs filling and is the responsibility of the pro clubs to repay. I think they've all accepted this - with some reluctance, perhaps - as the least worst option.

But where has the CVC money gone?
And, if the money was payment for the regions forgoing future competition revenue share, has it been misappropriated, or more bluntly, stolen?
Well its been cleverly hidden under a shower of flack. The fact is, this shows everything thats wrong in welsh rugby, that money should have gone direct to the regions. By giving it to the union, look whats happened! Not to be trusted Im afraid and something the pro teams should have left 17 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

As things are, it's like four guys being chased barefoot by a lion - one has a protective shield and is safe; another stops to put his running shoes on. "What are you doing?" ask the other two. "You don't think you can out-run a lion, even in those, do you?!"
"I don't have to out-run the lion," he says. "I just have to out-run you two." [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="Wink" title="Wink[/IMG]


[LOL] Isn't that a Billy Conolly joke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Im not sure I agree with the fact its the clubs responsibility. The WRU owe us the money under the agreement, its not their fault or ours that we are in this situation BUT we are funded by them, its not an annual loan we repay. Imagine I owed you £50 and I said, heres the £50 I owe you but I want it back later?? Makes no sense at all.
On the point about the new guy, you need to research his history, if it was down to him we would have 2 regions now. He is the Doctor Beeching of the rugby world, a bean counter. Not a man to run a rugby union in my (and many other peoples) opinion. Scary times ahead.



The problem is, in the agremeent with the WRU, the 4 regions are due to be funded whatever is left in the pot after the community game has their ringfenced £11m. They didn't sign up to get paid £20m+ annually. So the WRU don't have to give them £20m+

Of course they never foresaw a global pandemic which ripped off that £20m. So it's now gone down to £3m, and thew rest of it is made up for by by a loan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Im not sure I agree with the fact its the clubs responsibility. The WRU owe us the money under the agreement, its not their fault or ours that we are in this situation BUT we are funded by them, its not an annual loan we repay. Imagine I owed you £50 and I said, heres the £50 I owe you but I want it back later?? Makes no sense at all.

You don't owe me £50 - you just owe you an agreed proportion of what you have left over after paying the amateur clubs the £25 you owe them. It's up to me to find or fund the difference. That's how PRB agreed the split before a pandemic was thrown at us.


Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

On the point about the new guy, you need to research his history, if it was down to him we would have 2 regions now. He is the Doctor Beeching of the rugby world, a bean counter. Not a man to run a rugby union in my (and many other peoples) opinion. Scary times ahead.

Agree that Phillips' hatchet tendencies, as an accountant, will have to be watched, anticipated and countered, but he was working to deliver Roger's vision, not his own agenda. He will not have a big remit for change, at least while he remains Interim CEO.

During his long history with WRU finance, he will have witnessed plenty of emotional arguments, toy-throwing and amateurish sparring from both sides but, in recent years, has seen the more cogent & compelling business/financial arguments led by our own management.

The axe may be swung, but we're in the best position of all to avoid it, and I honestly hope that the others can get themselves similarly aligned.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2020 at 1:41pm
I vote for the Chinese loan to Africa tactic.

Attract Chinese money to build a port, airport, hystro electric plant and a railway. Once done you tell them you're skint.

Go for a holiday / buy a Range Rover.



Edited by Wil Chips - 08 September 2020 at 1:41pm
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