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South African sides set to join Pro12

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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 11:51am
Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

It would be great to have them playing over here


Why?


All the people that go on about how great super rugby is , well 2 of the sides coming over , surely that will put extra bums on seats

Well scarletrules Super Rugby certainly isn't great. Its in big trouble. They have expanded quickly & diluted the quality. The 5 NZ franchises are head & shoulders above everyone else & no-one wants to see 40-50 point hammerings. They are reducing from 18 to 15 next season & it probably won't stop there. Realistically the playing talent really only supports around 10 franchises with the Japanese & Argentinians being special cases bringing it to 12.

The Pro 12 is also in trouble, which is one of the reasons why the two SA teams are joining in the first place - to add more money, especially from TV revenue.  In fact, you could argue that the Irish big three play largely the same role in the Pro 12 as the NZ franchises do in Super Rugby (maybe not to the same extreme extent, but still), while the Italians, Dragons, Edinburgh and until recently Connacht have played largely the same role as the Japanese, Argentinians and weaker SA and Aussie sides. 

You can argue anything but does it have substance? I cannot see any correlation between what is happening in Super Rugby & the Pro 12. Admittedly we have weak teams which were deemed to be special cases - Zebre & Treviso. However there has always been 6-7 teams competing to win the Pro 12 from 3 countries as opposed to the 5 NZ franchises competing together. Crowds are dwindling in SA & Aus. If crowds dwindle then TV revenues follow. 

What I can't get my head around is the assumption that SA sides will bring a net increase in revenue to the pro 12 pot. SA can't afford to keep its best players from leaving for Europe as it is which suggests that they are short of money. Clearly the way forward is some form of British & Irish or European league with heavy restrictions on overseas playing numbers split into a number of divisions with promotion & relegation. However that ship may well have already sailed. I could see the French being persuaded as they have to sort their national team but the English are sitting pretty with BT money so will guard the status quo. 
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Mr Ian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Ian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 12:17pm
news from Italy...Zebre back a complete federal team, and they will be used as a development team for players come from italian championship, OMG....at the moment the best players are leaving, the last Padovani moves to Toulon and next should be Baker...
Treviso is in a better situation, they are investing money for next season and build a good team...even if I will be not surprised if next year they both go out from Celtic..at least italians are the really delusion of Celtic league, not only in sport performance but also in terms of sponsor, broadcast and many more...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 12:25pm
The only thing is a European League, will spoil the cup but with good sponsorship it would be great, and in all honesty the best time for the Scarlets as CHAMPIONS.

I can but dream, it would take years of discussions, even longer than Brexit!!!!
Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

The only thing is a European League, will spoil the cup but with good sponsorship it would be great, and in all honesty the best time for the Scarlets as CHAMPIONS.

I can but dream, it would take years of discussions, even longer than Brexit!!!!


I don't think the French would give up their league. They would however give up Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 12:32pm
The best thing, would be a British league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup
I'd love this. And in terms of qualification, surely top league goes top cup and lower league goes challenge cup?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote minded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup
I'd love this. And in terms of qualification, surely top league goes top cup and lower league goes challenge cup?
But this would mean that you'd be playing the same teams in the league as you would Europe every season, except for the French clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup
I'd love this. And in terms of qualification, surely top league goes top cup and lower league goes challenge cup?


No, because you would end up playing 2 of the teams 4 times a year in that case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

It would be great to have them playing over here


Why?


All the people that go on about how great super rugby is , well 2 of the sides coming over , surely that will put extra bums on seats

Well scarletrules Super Rugby certainly isn't great. Its in big trouble. They have expanded quickly & diluted the quality. The 5 NZ franchises are head & shoulders above everyone else & no-one wants to see 40-50 point hammerings. They are reducing from 18 to 15 next season & it probably won't stop there. Realistically the playing talent really only supports around 10 franchises with the Japanese & Argentinians being special cases bringing it to 12.

The Pro 12 is also in trouble, which is one of the reasons why the two SA teams are joining in the first place - to add more money, especially from TV revenue.  In fact, you could argue that the Irish big three play largely the same role in the Pro 12 as the NZ franchises do in Super Rugby (maybe not to the same extreme extent, but still), while the Italians, Dragons, Edinburgh and until recently Connacht have played largely the same role as the Japanese, Argentinians and weaker SA and Aussie sides. 
It seems to me that last season the Scarlets were head and shoulders above the Irish provinces....

Yes, but only towards the end of the season, and most of the time the Irish have dominated the Pro 12 almost as much as the Kiwis have Super Rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup


There's a rumour on that Internet that they have now, that BT Sport put the English clubs together with the Pro12 chiefs to sort out a British and Irish League, but the English wanted the Pro12 clubs to initially be in a 2nd tier division 2. Pro12 allegedly refused this. Idiotic by Pro12 if true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup
I'd love this. And in terms of qualification, surely top league goes top cup and lower league goes challenge cup?

But this would mean that you'd be playing the same teams in the league as you would Europe every season, except for the French clubs.
True. But to do it any other way would be like giving the Championship (football) a Champions League spot wouldn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup


There's a rumour on that Internet that they have now, that BT Sport put the English clubs together with the Pro12 chiefs to sort out a British and Irish League, but the English wanted the Pro12 clubs to initially be in a 2nd tier division 2. Pro12 allegedly refused this. Idiotic by Pro12 if true.


Why on earth should Leinster and Munster, to name two consistently well supported and successful pro 12 clubs, be placed below Newcastle and Worcester,to name a couple of English consistently cannon-fodder clubs. If this is true, it is an obstacle thrown up the English to scupper the whole process or an example of English arrogance. Turning down an offer of second level rugby would be the only possible thing for the pro 12 to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

The best thing, would be a British league.


I like this idea, 2 divisions of 12 (based on the final league positions of the Pro 12 & AP, so top 6 from each go into top division & bottom 6 from each go into 2nd division).

2 or 3 teams promoted/relegated each season with the bottom English team in the 2nd division switching with the winner of the existing English Championship.

Hardest part to sort would be the qualifiers for the European Cup


There's a rumour on that Internet that they have now, that BT Sport put the English clubs together with the Pro12 chiefs to sort out a British and Irish League, but the English wanted the Pro12 clubs to initially be in a 2nd tier division 2. Pro12 allegedly refused this. Idiotic by Pro12 if true.


Why on earth should Leinster and Munster, to name two consistently well supported and successful pro 12 clubs, be placed below Newcastle and Worcester,to name a couple of English consistently cannon-fodder clubs. If this is true, it is an obstacle thrown up the English to scupper the whole process or an example of English arrogance. Turning down an offer of second level rugby would be the only possible thing for the pro 12 to do.


A chance in a generation to form the roots of a British and Irish League, and you'd turn it down?

Madness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote henry_winkler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 9:07pm
I forsee all SA teams plus some yanks playing in the Pro12 in a few years and within 10 years the Pro12 will be "The league" and the English and French will fall by the wayside.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:



There's a rumour on that Internet that they have now, that BT Sport put the English clubs together with the Pro12 chiefs to sort out a British and Irish League, but the English wanted the Pro12 clubs to initially be in a 2nd tier division 2. Pro12 allegedly refused this. Idiotic by Pro12 if true.


Why on earth should Leinster and Munster, to name two consistently well supported and successful pro 12 clubs, be placed below Newcastle and Worcester,to name a couple of English consistently cannon-fodder clubs. If this is true, it is an obstacle thrown up the English to scupper the whole process or an example of English arrogance. Turning down an offer of second level rugby would be the only possible thing for the pro 12 to do.


A chance in a generation to form the roots of a British and Irish League, and you'd turn it down?

Madness.


Under those terms yes. And who knows how many clubs the English would allow to be promoted every year. One? In the meantime all the rest of the Celtic clubs have to survive on minimal second division tv money and have all their stars stripped away to the English clubs in the lucrative first division.

It sounds from your wording as though the English were dragged to that meeting by BT and then the English set conditions that they knew the Celts would have to refuse. A way of maintaining the status quo and being able to blame the Celts. BT may well be worried by the pro 12 being expanded to other tv markets ( equals more competition) and if they are, they'll drag the English to another meeting having given them a telling about setting pre-conditions. Expect a better deal in due course and I wouldn't accept anything other than the top six in each league forming the top division.

However much you want something, never accept it on cxxp terms. We're not under that much duress that we can't bide our time a bit. I absolutely do not accept that it was a once-in-a-generation chance. If the meeting happened, they'll come back.
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