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The Biggar hit

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John View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:42pm
Why wasn't that hit on Biggar illegal? There was no attempt to grasp him (is that necessary in cleaning out a ruck?) just a shoulder charge which seemed to damage both his shoulder and his nose. What was the difference between last night and the Adam Jones incident on the Lions tour?
I know Biggar is just about the least popular person on this forum but let's confine the answers (largely at leastBig smile) to the point of rugby law.....
 
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KID A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:47pm
agreed. It was exactly the same as Botha wasn't it?

4 weeks standard believe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:52pm
Then Jiffy is completely useless as an expert..... but we knew that before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 1:56pm
There were a lot of what I consider to be illegal tackles and joining rucks in that game, with no attempt to wrap the arms around the player or bind - essentially just shoulder charges. Plus a lot of high arms around the neck area.

It's no surprise; Samoa are always like this - I know it comes across as moaning or being soft so I will say they were completely the better side and deserved to win but I am surprised they get away with it. The officials choked completely - a bit like Ken did from one of those aforementioned high clearouts.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kcreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 2:09pm
lets not forget the samoan's wwe strangehold on ken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tim Opolis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by kcreg kcreg wrote:

lets not forget the samoan's wwe strangehold on ken.
 
Precisely! What's going on mun, we say a tackle is high when its above the shoulders, yet in maules and rucks we see players being grabbed around the throat and swung around all over the place. The phrase choke tackle is heard all the time now, surely its not rucking, its not cleaning out, its tackling without the ball and dangerously high tackles.
 
The incident with Ken was disgraceful and surely he'll be cited. Rugby is a hard enough game legally, dont need this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 2:47pm
If Wales had played like that at say Twickenham, they would have been penalised and yellow carded out of the game. But because its Samoa, the officials have the mindset of "that's the way they play"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

If Wales had played like that at say Twickenham, they would have been penalised and yellow carded out of the game. But because its Samoa, the officials have the mindset of "that's the way they play"



Stephen Jones (Times Journalist) tweeted saying he thought that was the worst refereeing performance he'd seen for 25 years because the referee allowed "moronic Samoan tackling". Just what Wayne Barnea saw when he considered that the player slipped when trying to break Ken's neck, I just don't know.

The whole Samoan game was based on shoulder barging which is illegal everywhere else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Abbey Abbey wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

If Wales had played like that at say Twickenham, they would have been penalised and yellow carded out of the game. But because its Samoa, the officials have the mindset of "that's the way they play"



Stephen Jones (Times Journalist) tweeted saying he thought that was the worst refereeing performance he'd seen for 25 years because the referee allowed "moronic Samoan tackling". Just what Wayne Barnea saw when he considered that the player slipped when trying to break Ken's neck, I just don't know.

The whole Samoan game was based on shoulder barging which is illegal everywhere else.



I totally agree with you guys.

The way the game went, Samoa deserved to win - no question - BUT there should have been at least two cards (I'd have given a red for the forearm smash into Biggar's face) which would have changed things just a bit.

Let's see if the citing commissioner has more about him than the ref + assistants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Abbey Abbey wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

If Wales had played like that at say Twickenham, they would have been penalised and yellow carded out of the game. But because its Samoa, the officials have the mindset of "that's the way they play"



Stephen Jones (Times Journalist) tweeted saying he thought that was the worst refereeing performance he'd seen for 25 years because the referee allowed "moronic Samoan tackling". Just what Wayne Barnea saw when he considered that the player slipped when trying to break Ken's neck, I just don't know.

The whole Samoan game was based on shoulder barging which is illegal everywhere else.



I totally agree with you guys.

The way the game went, Samoa deserved to win - no question - BUT there should have been at least two cards (I'd have given a red for the forearm smash into Biggar's face) which would have changed things just a bit.

Let's see if the citing commissioner has more about him than the ref + assistants.
 
Too late now the game is over.
What we need is the refs and linesmen to get a real bo&&^%$ing when they allow such incidents to take place during a game.
Samoa should have had at least 2 yellows for foul/dangeous play, additionally their captain was warned for persistent infringing at the ruck and just continued to penalise them.
Agree with Jiffy's point this afternoon. We need to put a foot or two on these players, then the refs may be forced to take action.
Refs need to be stronger and for them to work with the linesmen in order to get a control of such incidents as we saw last night.
Finally I must say that Samoa fully deserved their win, and if their kicker had his boots on the scoreline would have been even more embarrassing.


Edited by ap sior - 17 November 2012 at 6:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 7:28pm
I've a slightly different view. Nuance rather than reason to fall out. It's re officiating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 8:11pm
B0110ck officials & they go into their shells.
By all means, constructively criticise & point out how things can be done better, however bringing officials along - apart from JPD tonight - needs more coaxing than anything more harsh.
Tonight's ref in confident in his own persona & challenges from those playing.
Man management brilliant. Technical stuff is better judged by others.

Good to hear him say he'll reverse the pen if they take the p15s out of the oppo for conceding the pen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 8:36pm
Re Biggar hit, I've not seen it.
That said, too many "tackles" take place without arms etc & that's the cause of many injuries.
No one wants ANYone to be hit by some thuggery, whether he plays for our nearest rivals or not & some have an unforgiving (or worse) attitude to him.
He could be a total twit. Equally, he could be a great player not easily liked by supporters of other regions.
Whatever the truth is, he doesn't deserve, nor does anyone, an American Football cheap shot type, no arms-style excuse for a tackle.
More movement of the ball in open view = better spectacle all round.

Edited by Eastern outpost - 17 November 2012 at 8:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesyboy1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 9:04pm
I think Samoa almost always over-step the mark between physicality and setting out to remove your opponent from the pitch.
 
I have only seen them play live once, and at one stage there were seven players lying on the floor being treated (including 2 Samoans) and several had medium-term injuries afterwards. It was a pretty disgusting show to be honest.  It was interesting to contrast the more controlled physicality of South Africa against Scotland today, which I thought was impressive without resorting to thuggery.
 
I recently raised this with an ex-Samoan player I met at an event and he felt they were absolutely fearless because of their strong religious faith; this enables them to put their bodies totally on the line with no fear of any injury. This makes them dangerous opponenents in more than one way.
Two sides referee!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2012 at 9:17pm
That said, I'd suggest they and others need to conform to a sensible standard.

If they don't, they can sit down and reflect on their errors.

Tonight Doyle ducked no issue. He sat people down and as a result the game was better for it. No warnings that smacked of over-tolerance. Just decisiveness delivered professionally and objectively. Others can comment on his technical ability. Thankfully, he was hotter on offside and space than many this season, so the game flowed better than otherwise.

If JPD had reffed the Zebre game, would it have been different?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2012 at 8:10am
From a Referee's point of view, I "see" the Biggar incident like this ...

Biggar was Jackaling the ball at A RUCK ....

Jo join a RUCK players "MUST BE BOUND ON WITH A FULL ARM" (from shouder to hand) !

You can NOT "CLEAN OUT" a player by ramming him with the shoulder/upper arm/elbow !

Had I senn this whilst I was officiating, I would have deemed this Dangerous Play and issued the appropriate CARD

This offence if missed is Citable in my opinion !
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