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The Brexit bonus...

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Rob o'r Bont View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 9:55am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

So, what to say now then.........?

Looks like getting Brexit done involved our Government signing an agreement they aparently didn't understand and are now trying to get out of it.  

How unlike this government to U-turn.

The GFA has created a mess; funny how Major and Blair didn't mention this aspect of it as they didn't think ahead either. Also funny how no one in Brexit or leave voters realised this until after they won. Almost as if the vote was just to win rather than actually for something constructive but we've done this to death.

Brexit, GFA, NI being same as rest of UK, International law, you can't have all four. A choice has to be made and a group of people will be unhappy with your decision - in addition to us moaning remainers who still are not convinced Brexit offers any benefit to the UK whatsoever.
I wouldn't say the GFA has created a mess.  It's just been one of the parameters that needed to be taken into account when deciding to leave the EU.  The mess was caused in my opinion by politicians failing to be honest about it in order to win the Brexit vote. How could this not have been a key agenda point at the time of the vote. Had this been an agenda item at the time and the mess it's caused been made clear to the voting public, then I honestly doubt we would be leaving the EU. 

Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 14 September 2020 at 9:56am
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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

So, what to say now then.........?

Looks like getting Brexit done involved our Government signing an agreement they aparently didn't understand and are now trying to get out of it.  

How unlike this government to U-turn.

The GFA has created a mess; funny how Major and Blair didn't mention this aspect of it as they didn't think ahead either. Also funny how no one in Brexit or leave voters realised this until after they won. Almost as if the vote was just to win rather than actually for something constructive but we've done this to death.

Brexit, GFA, NI being same as rest of UK, International law, you can't have all four. A choice has to be made and a group of people will be unhappy with your decision - in addition to us moaning remainers who still are not convinced Brexit offers any benefit to the UK whatsoever.
I wouldn't say the GFA has created a mess.  It's just been one of the parameters that needed to be taken into account when deciding to leave the EU.  The mess was caused in my opinion by politicians failing to be honest about it in order to win the Brexit vote. How could this not have been a key agenda point at the time of the vote. Had this been an agenda item at the time and the mess it's caused been made clear to the voting public, then I honestly doubt we would be leaving the EU. 

I agree 100% with it needed to be taken into account and it's laughable the reaction of Brexit politicians going "oh yeah, we forgot about that" after the vote. The failure of not making it clear of the potential issue during the vote as well, again agree completely. 

However, at its heart the GFA is trying to do something that's always going to cause problems: an open border between two totally separate countries. Fine if both are in the EU, that is able to work, but if not then we all see the problem. Or you give NI a different set of border rules than the rest of the UK (yes, I know full title is UK of GB and NI) which then means you have to have border control between NI and rest of UK. And a group of NI people don't want that, either. Let's face it the GFA is a short term solution, the political divisions in NI haven't been solved by magic, and nothing's permanent.

This is the decision that was made and our government has to choose an option: Brexit, GFA, NI's status or International Law. One of them has to go (or fiddle substantially). The fact they hadn't prepared for doing so and have an inability to explain this with any degree of honesty to the public highlights their immense incapability as governing politicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 11:42am
I am yet to see a credible explanation as to why a hard border between NI & Eire = return to violence. For me I feel the role of Unionist politicians in Belfast is becoming increasingly uncomfortable for the British Government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I am yet to see a credible explanation as to why a hard border between NI & Eire = return to violence. For me I feel the role of Unionist politicians in Belfast is becoming increasingly uncomfortable for the British Government.

It's a risk I suppose, but I don't think the GFA is untouchable and it shouldn't be portrayed as such by UK, Irish or American politicians. It's not a long-term solution at all even if Blair and Major's egos and legacy are wrapped up in it. Case in point it's silly that we are resorting to breaking international law as we can't sort out our own borders. I'd give NI a referendum: do they want the GFA or do they want to be treated the same as the rest of UK? I'd find it humorous if a small minority of the country decide on what Brexit we get. Particularly as the hardcore unionist UDP, who campaigned against the GFA, were f***ed over by the Tories very recently. Now that's politics!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I am yet to see a credible explanation as to why a hard border between NI & Eire = return to violence. For me I feel the role of Unionist politicians in Belfast is becoming increasingly uncomfortable for the British Government.

It's a risk I suppose, but I don't think the GFA is untouchable and it shouldn't be portrayed as such by UK, Irish or American politicians. It's not a long-term solution at all even if Blair and Major's egos and legacy are wrapped up in it. Case in point it's silly that we are resorting to breaking international law as we can't sort out our own borders. I'd give NI a referendum: do they want the GFA or do they want to be treated the same as the rest of UK? I'd find it humorous if a small minority of the country decide on what Brexit we get. Particularly as the hardcore unionist UDP, who campaigned against the GFA, were f***ed over by the Tories very recently. Now that's politics!

I can't see any NI politician opposing the GFA but quite why it has to fall if there is a re-instated border fails me. If the GFA were being drafted now I wonder if an open border would really matter. As for a NI referendum  - humorous is not quite the word I would use to describe being dictated to by any small minority - that is not how democracy is meant to work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 2:48pm
I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 14 September 2020 at 2:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2020 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'



Fair enough, although that's just a paper, but if we go with that and generally that no-one wants to touch the GFA, a custom check border at ports and/or in the sea is the least worst option, leaving NI still connected to the EU and under EU regulation. What else is there or you have free movement of people goods between ROI/NI and then NI/rest of UK??? 

But then in response to him going back on his own deal, Johnson is now accusing the EU of wanting to "carve up our country" (how ironic) with such a sea border and has previously stated "over my dead body" to such an idea. So what is it exactly they (the Johnson Government) want if they are excluding this idea so strongly? NI to remain fully integrated with the UK but no custom checks with the ROI to preserve the GFA? 

No deal puts a hard border in NI - doesn't have to be manned, of course, but that's back to paragraph 1 so doesn't solve anything. You have to say "sorry but the GFA needs to be updated due to Brexit and we're having customs checks now. All the other stuff still stands".

I also recall them saying they had an "oven ready" deal. Goes to show that just because something can be put in an oven it doesn't mean it's edible. 

"Taking back control of our borders from the EU" - how silly that sounds right now.

Anyway, I'm not an international lawyer by any means, can anyone supply more information on the ins and outs of this delicate situation - laws are meant to be broken I mean written after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletabroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Sorry to break it to you but the violence has never gone away they have just returned to the drug running buisness, extortion and knee capping of defenceless junkies and opposition gang members. The excuse to raise their level of violence and include bombing of innocent people to justify their criminal empire is what the report should have said
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 8:46am
Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Sorry to break it to you but the violence has never gone away they have just returned to the drug running buisness, extortion and knee capping of defenceless junkies and opposition gang members. The excuse to raise their level of violence and include bombing of innocent people to justify their criminal empire is what the report should have said
What your describing there is a controlled level of violence, an acceptable level of violence if you like, although governments probably wouldn't use that term in public.  There has been no multiple killings since the Omagh bombing over 20 yers ago. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Sorry to break it to you but the violence has never gone away they have just returned to the drug running buisness, extortion and knee capping of defenceless junkies and opposition gang members. The excuse to raise their level of violence and include bombing of innocent people to justify their criminal empire is what the report should have said
What your describing there is a controlled level of violence, an acceptable level of violence if you like, although governments probably wouldn't use that term in public.  There has been no multiple killings since the Omagh bombing over 20 yers ago. 

I hear what you are saying Rob but how do you define " an acceptable level of violence". There is no doubt in my mind that there are still renegade groups on both sides who would like nothing better than to return to the old ways. I remain unconvinced that a border in NI, which would totally resolve the issue now being brought forward by Boris, would change anything with regard to the GFA.

Being in control of our borders was & is a fundamental reason why the majority of this country voted for Brexit. Before anyone starts using the racist argument please spare me - controlling your borders is becoming increasingly relevant both politically and security wise. We only have to look at the issues facing many Northern European countries who are suffering as a result of the open border Schengen agreement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 9:59am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Sorry to break it to you but the violence has never gone away they have just returned to the drug running buisness, extortion and knee capping of defenceless junkies and opposition gang members. The excuse to raise their level of violence and include bombing of innocent people to justify their criminal empire is what the report should have said
What your describing there is a controlled level of violence, an acceptable level of violence if you like, although governments probably wouldn't use that term in public.  There has been no multiple killings since the Omagh bombing over 20 yers ago. 

I hear what you are saying Rob but how do you define " an acceptable level of violence". There is no doubt in my mind that there are still renegade groups on both sides who would like nothing better than to return to the old ways. I remain unconvinced that a border in NI, which would totally resolve the issue now being brought forward by Boris, would change anything with regard to the GFA.

Being in control of our borders was & is a fundamental reason why the majority of this country voted for Brexit. Before anyone starts using the racist argument please spare me - controlling your borders is becoming increasingly relevant both politically and security wise. We only have to look at the issues facing many Northern European countries who are suffering as a result of the open border Schengen agreement. 
Some good points there GPR.  On the question of open border - we've never had an open border with the EU (another point that was skipped over in the Brexit debate).  There have always been checks and balances and we have always had it in our power to be stricter in our approach to the border - the fact that we haven't has been down to UK governments, not the EU.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by scarletabroad scarletabroad wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

I think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a paper based on research by Senator Mark Daly and UNESCO Chairs Professor Pat Dolan & Professor Mark Brennan, concluded.......

'There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence'




Sorry to break it to you but the violence has never gone away they have just returned to the drug running buisness, extortion and knee capping of defenceless junkies and opposition gang members. The excuse to raise their level of violence and include bombing of innocent people to justify their criminal empire is what the report should have said
What your describing there is a controlled level of violence, an acceptable level of violence if you like, although governments probably wouldn't use that term in public.  There has been no multiple killings since the Omagh bombing over 20 yers ago. 

I hear what you are saying Rob but how do you define " an acceptable level of violence". There is no doubt in my mind that there are still renegade groups on both sides who would like nothing better than to return to the old ways. I remain unconvinced that a border in NI, which would totally resolve the issue now being brought forward by Boris, would change anything with regard to the GFA.

Being in control of our borders was & is a fundamental reason why the majority of this country voted for Brexit. Before anyone starts using the racist argument please spare me - controlling your borders is becoming increasingly relevant both politically and security wise. We only have to look at the issues facing many Northern European countries who are suffering as a result of the open border Schengen agreement. 
Some good points there GPR.  On the question of open border - we've never had an open border with the EU (another point that was skipped over in the Brexit debate).  There have always been checks and balances and we have always had it in our power to be stricter in our approach to the border - the fact that we haven't has been down to UK governments, not the EU.


I think you are confusing open borders with immigration points. As members of the EU our points of entry were free to all European passport holders. Indeed the border in question between NI & Eire is totally open along 100's of miles. I agree we were not a signature to the Schengen agreement which reduced even further the effectiveness of border controls. 

Free movement of people, goods and capital is a wonderful gutsy slogan but does not stand up to scrutiny. All these wonderful freedoms by a band of brothers nations - I wonder what Greece & Italy think of these freedoms when they are left on their own to deal with thousands of immigrants desperate to flee persecution within their broken countries. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 10:41am
Borders have been done to death on this thread mate and I think we agreed to disagree last time.  Entry into the UK is a limited time thing for those EU passport holders without jobs and why wouldn't you want to give open access to EU passport holders looking for work or holidaying for a fortnight?  Border officials can stop undesireables such those with terrorist convictions whether they have EU passports or not.  We really do have control already in my opinion.

France has always cooperated with the UK by keeping migrants in camps on the French side.  This has already started to relax and we are seeing more and more illegal imigrants coming acroes the channel.  The reality is that with the French 'opening up', our borders will become less secure, not more.

And for anyone who hasn't seen it coming, we're going to have to keep the borders effectively open as part of the trade deal with the EU in any case. Put all this together and we have the worst of all worlds.


Edited by Rob o'r Bont - 15 September 2020 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Borders have been done to death on this thread mate and I think we agreed to disagree last time.  Entry into the UK is a limited time thing for those EU passport holders without jobs and why wouldn't you want to give open access to EU passport holders looking for work or holidaying for a fortnight?  Border officials can stop undesireables such those with terrorist convictions whether they have EU passports or not.  We really do have control already in my opinion.

France has always cooperated with the UK by keeping migrants in camps on the French side.  This has already started to relax and we are seeing more and more illegal imigrants coming acroes the channel.  The reality is that with the French 'opening up', our borders will become less secure, not more.

And for anyone who hasn't seen it coming, we're going to have to keep the borders effectively open as part of the trade deal with the EU in any case. Put all this together and we have the worst of all worlds.

As you said Rob we will agree to disagree - with mutual respect I would add. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Borders have been done to death on this thread mate and I think we agreed to disagree last time.  Entry into the UK is a limited time thing for those EU passport holders without jobs and why wouldn't you want to give open access to EU passport holders looking for work or holidaying for a fortnight?  Border officials can stop undesireables such those with terrorist convictions whether they have EU passports or not.  We really do have control already in my opinion.

France has always cooperated with the UK by keeping migrants in camps on the French side.  This has already started to relax and we are seeing more and more illegal imigrants coming acroes the channel.  The reality is that with the French 'opening up', our borders will become less secure, not more.

And for anyone who hasn't seen it coming, we're going to have to keep the borders effectively open as part of the trade deal with the EU in any case. Put all this together and we have the worst of all worlds.

The issue wouldnt have become so critical if new labour had policed the illegal immigration situation at the time they were in power instead of brushing it under the carpet or worse still accusing anyone of racism who even mentioned the subject. As for any trade deal with the EU the issue of open borders has been immovable on both sides since the beginning. The debate level on brexit in the Uk was appalling. The lies on all sides too. I recall one such dreadful debate on daily politics between rachel reeves of labour and digby jones. She was hand picking 2 months data to show the economy had fallen due to brexit he pointed out the fact the previous few months  the markets and employment had improved greatly. At which point she jumped in and falsely accused him of sexism for not allowing her to interrupt him and finish her point. I duly turned off the show. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2020 at 11:56am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Borders have been done to death on this thread mate and I think we agreed to disagree last time.  Entry into the UK is a limited time thing for those EU passport holders without jobs and why wouldn't you want to give open access to EU passport holders looking for work or holidaying for a fortnight?  Border officials can stop undesireables such those with terrorist convictions whether they have EU passports or not.  We really do have control already in my opinion.

France has always cooperated with the UK by keeping migrants in camps on the French side.  This has already started to relax and we are seeing more and more illegal imigrants coming acroes the channel.  The reality is that with the French 'opening up', our borders will become less secure, not more.

And for anyone who hasn't seen it coming, we're going to have to keep the borders effectively open as part of the trade deal with the EU in any case. Put all this together and we have the worst of all worlds.

As you said Rob we will agree to disagree - with mutual respect I would add. 

Which option do you think the Government should take: border checks between NI and ROI or between NI and rest of UK? 
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