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The Brexit bonus...

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totallybiasedscarlet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 5:30pm
On top of all that EU funding Labour have not shifted our GDP on one iota! Even Eluned Morgan admitted recently how useless they’ve been on the economy.

I can honestly see the UK going back to the EU piece by piece. Perhaps a Norway type deal would suit Wales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

So then: this is the current situation...

Theresa May has completed her deal - she tells us that 'this is the Brexit people voted for'.

Jacob Rees-Mogg tells us: "This is not the Brexit people voted for', and calls for a vote of no confidence in May.

Who is telling the truth?

NEITHER OF THEM - THEY ARE BOTH LYING!

And why?

THERE WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT BREXIT WOULD MEAN IN THE REFERENDUM.
 VOTE

What people actually voted for was as follows:

"have cake and eat it"

"jam tomorrow"

"£350 million a week for the NHS".

In other words, people had a vague, unspecified notion that things would somehow be "Better" after Brexit.

It is pretty obvious by now - even to hard line Brexiters - that this is not the case - otherwise they'd back May. Problem is, they would not be able to negotiate a better deal.

These people would prefer us to leave the EU with 'no deal' - which would be even worse - but also, significantly, NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL EXIT. Before the referendum, the Brexit supporters insisted it would be a piece of pi** to get a deal done, and that we would be better off.

Another lie, obviously.

Let's have another referendum where the choice is clear...

Q1 Do you support May's Brexit deal? Yes or No? (if yes, this goes forward.)

Q2 If No, then do you prefer:
a to leave the EU with no deal, or
b to stay in the EU?

That would have the benefit of clarity, because at least people would know EXACTLY what deal they're voting on, not some cloud-cuckoo land future which never existed.

And lest someone say 'we've voted and it's the will of the people' - well, in that case, why do we have elections every 5 years? If the will of the people is FIXED FOREVER, let's just live with a Tory minority government backed by the DUP until Kingdom come!





Please Aber you must at least credit some of us Brexiteers will some modicum of common sense. At the time of Brexit I clearly understood what I was voting for :-

1. Control of our borders;
2. Control of our laws & lawmaking;
3. An end to vast annual payments into the unelected, unaudited swamp called Brussels/Strasbourg;
4. An ability to negotiate trade deals free from the hindrance of having to satisfy 27 other countries.

The above are what Brexit meant to me in 2016 and they are what Brexit means to me today. The fact that May has been hamstrung firstly be her over reliance on the DUP and secondly be the weakness of her appointments to the negotiating team does not in any shape or form change the arguement as far as I am concerned. 

The way forward for me would be for May to resign & make way for a new leader from the Brexit side of the Tory party. This leader should then appoint a new negotiating team under the chairmanship of a leading pro leave Industrialist. The brief would be to get a better deal by March 2019 or we leave with no deal saving us £39 billion. As Dominic Raab stated he would prefer us to leave with no deal, ride out the short term problems so that we do not hamstring ourselves for the foreseeable future. 




I'm well aware that most people who voted Brexit did so to keep Johnny Foreigner out. (As my wife is French and so my kids are half French, you will understand why this idea doesn't exactly appeal to me.)

The trade deal is a non starter, as most of our trade is with the EU - so trade will definitely suffer if we pull out.

Laws and lawmaking - granted, the Tories want to pull the rug from under all those soft touchy-feely laws which support workers' rights, and do away with all that anti-torture legislation at the European Court of Human Rights. Human Rights? Who ever heard of such a disgraceful concept!

As for the 'vast payments' - May has signed up to continue those for a while, with nothing in return. ATM, at least, Wales benefits disproportionately from those compared to England - unlike UK spending on England-only schemes like the immensely expensive Crossrail and SE2.

For Wales, especially, it's a no-brainer, as we do more trade as a % with the EU than the rest of the UK - and have ports in Holyhead and Fishguard that will be vulnerable if no deal is signed.

As for renegotiating by March 2019 - miracles don't happen - I'm not religious! The EU have a deal - they will not be willing to waste more time trying to appease the crazy wing of the Tory party.


I have to say you are usually a lot easier to have a conversation with. Johnny Foreigner what sort of language is that? So you believe that us Brexiteers are partially racist? Are you also aware that the EU sell more to us than we to them - so your comment on trade lacks substance. From your comments you are clearly more than happy to continue to subsidise the Brussels/Strasbourg bureaucrats with their twin city flats and expense accounts because you clearly trust them who are unelected and unaccountable far more than democratically elected and accountable Tories.

From your comments I have to wonder why you choose to live in this hell hole instead of the nirvana which awaits your wife and family in France. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

So then: this is the current situation...

Theresa May has completed her deal - she tells us that 'this is the Brexit people voted for'.

Jacob Rees-Mogg tells us: "This is not the Brexit people voted for', and calls for a vote of no confidence in May.

Who is telling the truth?

NEITHER OF THEM - THEY ARE BOTH LYING!

And why?

THERE WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL DESCRIPTION OF WHAT BREXIT WOULD MEAN IN THE REFERENDUM.
 VOTE

What people actually voted for was as follows:

"have cake and eat it"

"jam tomorrow"

"£350 million a week for the NHS".

In other words, people had a vague, unspecified notion that things would somehow be "Better" after Brexit.

It is pretty obvious by now - even to hard line Brexiters - that this is not the case - otherwise they'd back May. Problem is, they would not be able to negotiate a better deal.

These people would prefer us to leave the EU with 'no deal' - which would be even worse - but also, significantly, NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL EXIT. Before the referendum, the Brexit supporters insisted it would be a piece of pi** to get a deal done, and that we would be better off.

Another lie, obviously.

Let's have another referendum where the choice is clear...

Q1 Do you support May's Brexit deal? Yes or No? (if yes, this goes forward.)

Q2 If No, then do you prefer:
a to leave the EU with no deal, or
b to stay in the EU?

That would have the benefit of clarity, because at least people would know EXACTLY what deal they're voting on, not some cloud-cuckoo land future which never existed.

And lest someone say 'we've voted and it's the will of the people' - well, in that case, why do we have elections every 5 years? If the will of the people is FIXED FOREVER, let's just live with a Tory minority government backed by the DUP until Kingdom come!





Please Aber you must at least credit some of us Brexiteers will some modicum of common sense. At the time of Brexit I clearly understood what I was voting for :-

1. Control of our borders;
2. Control of our laws & lawmaking;
3. An end to vast annual payments into the unelected, unaudited swamp called Brussels/Strasbourg;
4. An ability to negotiate trade deals free from the hindrance of having to satisfy 27 other countries.

The above are what Brexit meant to me in 2016 and they are what Brexit means to me today. The fact that May has been hamstrung firstly be her over reliance on the DUP and secondly be the weakness of her appointments to the negotiating team does not in any shape or form change the arguement as far as I am concerned. 

The way forward for me would be for May to resign & make way for a new leader from the Brexit side of the Tory party. This leader should then appoint a new negotiating team under the chairmanship of a leading pro leave Industrialist. The brief would be to get a better deal by March 2019 or we leave with no deal saving us £39 billion. As Dominic Raab stated he would prefer us to leave with no deal, ride out the short term problems so that we do not hamstring ourselves for the foreseeable future. 




I'm well aware that most people who voted Brexit did so to keep Johnny Foreigner out. (As my wife is French and so my kids are half French, you will understand why this idea doesn't exactly appeal to me.)

The trade deal is a non starter, as most of our trade is with the EU - so trade will definitely suffer if we pull out.

Laws and lawmaking - granted, the Tories want to pull the rug from under all those soft touchy-feely laws which support workers' rights, and do away with all that anti-torture legislation at the European Court of Human Rights. Human Rights? Who ever heard of such a disgraceful concept!

As for the 'vast payments' - May has signed up to continue those for a while, with nothing in return. ATM, at least, Wales benefits disproportionately from those compared to England - unlike UK spending on England-only schemes like the immensely expensive Crossrail and SE2.

For Wales, especially, it's a no-brainer, as we do more trade as a % with the EU than the rest of the UK - and have ports in Holyhead and Fishguard that will be vulnerable if no deal is signed.

As for renegotiating by March 2019 - miracles don't happen - I'm not religious! The EU have a deal - they will not be willing to waste more time trying to appease the crazy wing of the Tory party.


I have to say you are usually a lot easier to have a conversation with. Johnny Foreigner what sort of language is that? So you believe that us Brexiteers are partially racist? Are you also aware that the EU sell more to us than we to them - so your comment on trade lacks substance. From your comments you are clearly more than happy to continue to subsidise the Brussels/Strasbourg bureaucrats with their twin city flats and expense accounts because you clearly trust them who are unelected and unaccountable far more than democratically elected and accountable Tories.

From your comments I have to wonder why you choose to live in this hell hole instead of the nirvana which awaits your wife and family in France. 

The whole Leave campaign had, at its core, a perception of masses of immigrants arriving in the UK. 

It swung the vote in both Llanelli & Carmarthen, IMO.

I would rather be run from Brussels than Westminster at the moment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 7:34pm
GPR. As I’ve said to you before, not everyone who voted Leave is racist, but you can’t seriously tell me it didn’t play a huge part in many people’s decisions in how they voted.
If you can be bothered, read this https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/26/facebook-finally-hands-over-leave-campaign-brexit-ads/

In short.. the illegal adverts produced by Cambridge Analytica, a company that used the private information of Facebook users, used fake, untrue racist adverts to target users that they’d identified as being on the fence of how they were going to vote, ultimately swinging the vote to Leave.

Leavers expect us to respect this decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 9:47pm
MM wote

The whole Leave campaign had, at its core, a perception of masses of immigrants arriving in the UK. 

It swung the vote in both Llanelli & Carmarthen, IMO.

I would rather be run from Brussels than Westminster at the moment.

On the whole I might prefer to be run from Brussels than by an incompetent and corrupt gang of neo-cons who only want to be the hand-maidens of U.S. foreign policy, but there are many scenarios which are likely to arise from this shambles, like the election of a principled and honest govt led by Jeremy Corbyn who will not be restricted by EU rules which only allow privatisation and not nationalisation. We might even save our health and education services at the expense of a few aircraft carriers carrying $115m (each!!) useless F35s.
I'm not sure how accurate this is but I've seen somewhere that only the UK and Germany are net contributors to the EU budget, so getting out is hardly likely to impoverish the UK. It's then up to Cymru and Scotland to fight for a greater share of the UK money to make up for the occasional infrastructure project that we could miss out on.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

MM wote

The whole Leave campaign had, at its core, a perception of masses of immigrants arriving in the UK. 

It swung the vote in both Llanelli & Carmarthen, IMO.

I would rather be run from Brussels than Westminster at the moment.

On the whole I might prefer to be run from Brussels than by an incompetent and corrupt gang of neo-cons who only want to be the hand-maidens of U.S. foreign policy, but there are many scenarios which are likely to arise from this shambles, like the election of a principled and honest govt led by Jeremy Corbyn who will not be restricted by EU rules which only allow privatisation and not nationalisation. We might even save our health and education services at the expense of a few aircraft carriers carrying $115m (each!!) useless F35s.
I'm not sure how accurate this is but I've seen somewhere that only the UK and Germany are net contributors to the EU budget, so getting out is hardly likely to impoverish the UK. It's then up to Cymru and Scotland to fight for a greater share of the UK money to make up for the occasional infrastructure project that we could miss out on.


Ffidel, Cymru is going to do an awful lot more than that. I haven't got much faith in Corbyn to be a friend of Wales either. All the noises that have come from him lead me to believe he's yet another of the Labour party to reject the national identities of the constituent nations of the UK. He's made it clear in his regular references to "the regions." IMHO he's another adherent of the one (british) nation ideology. On top of that he regularly contradicts his own party's policies and actions in the WAG.

Frankly we need to reconstruct our economy and sort out our infrastructure. Nobody else is going to do this for us. Good grief we need to wake the dragon so to speak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2018 at 11:15pm
Daily Express leading with David Davies/Boris Johnson plotting to put one of themselves forward as a "Brexit candidate" to replace May with Jacob Rees-Mogg as chancellor of the exchequer.

Oh lord ...


Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 17 November 2018 at 11:42pm
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 12 minutes ago at 9:39am
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

GPR. As I’ve said to you before, not everyone who voted Leave is racist, but you can’t seriously tell me it didn’t play a huge part in many people’s decisions in how they voted.
If you can be bothered, read this https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/26/facebook-finally-hands-over-leave-campaign-brexit-ads/

In short.. the illegal adverts produced by Cambridge Analytica, a company that used the private information of Facebook users, used fake, untrue racist adverts to target users that they’d identified as being on the fence of how they were going to vote, ultimately swinging the vote to Leave.

Leavers expect us to respect this decision.

Sospan I appreciate your comments. Of course, as has been quoted on here endlessly over recent months, false claims and threats have been used on BOTH sides of this argument. I have absolutely no problem welcoming any non British person who wants to come and help our economy through legal channels. I myself have experience of working abroad and frankly didn't feel that I was being victimised by being asked to apply for & provide a work permit. 

Potential employers in the UK should not consider this requirement as too onerous. Can anyone really deny the huge issues created by the open border policy on mainland Europe. I am afraid the rise in Nationalist votes throughout Europe in recent years has a lot to do with the open border policy. I am not a racist to point this out surely. All I ask is that we control our borders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Winston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 6 minutes ago at 9:45am
I agree entirely with all of that

Edited by Winston - 19 hours 5 minutes ago at 9:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 30 minutes ago at 3:21pm
Its very disappointing the UK and EU couldnt have hammered out a better deal. I am a huge fan of redistribution of wealth and if the EU had been run better it could have been a vehicle for that. Sadly that didnt happen and umpteen of the poorer nations went bankrupt...It seems when you get 100s of politicians self interest , lobbying, waste and backhanders are never far behind. Even since the expenses scandals, the panama papers too...Remember jack straw and malcolm rifkind alleged cash for access scandals just a couple of years ago, tessa jowell and her alleged mystery £300k which she didnt notice? You have mp's taking weeks off to do reality tv, Meanwhile BoJo is paid £275,000 per annum for his column amongst innumerable other sidelines, these are paid off celebrities who have delegated their duties away to brussels to free up more time to milk their fame/infamy  

Is it just coincidence that since we nearly trebled the number of politicians around europe with growth of Brussells and the commission, the endless new parliaments and assembles, as these politicians grew, that the massive corporations have paid less and less taxes? And the average joe has paid more? 

THIS is the key debate of the future, who is the candidate who will fight for the masses against these corporate takeovers? And instead create a fair healthy vibrant economy with proper healthy competition where SME's can compete... If you find such a person in british politics, please let me know and I will consider supporting him/her. Its all well and good preaching about wealth distribution and a vibrant economy and fairer society but how do you deliver the theory in practice?


Edited by roy munster - 13 hours 18 minutes ago at 3:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 hours 9 minutes ago at 6:42pm
Roy, 
The EU has never been a vehicle for the redistribution of wealth. It is an instrument of neo-liberalism, dedicated to "the free movement of  capital and labour" -meaning that to maximize the profits of the rich, they are happy to see workers (migrants?) move around freely, competing against each  other for the lowest wages and longest hours just to have a job. The EU does not allow state intervention to stop mass unemployment.
Countries like Greece and Italy are made to impose austerity rather than have a budget deficit and living standards are plunging with life expectancy decreasing and emigration of skilled workers increasing. As the next recession starts more EU members will face the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 5 minutes ago at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Roy, 
The EU has never been a vehicle for the redistribution of wealth. It is an instrument of neo-liberalism, dedicated to "the free movement of  capital and labour" -meaning that to maximize the profits of the rich, they are happy to see workers (migrants?) move around freely, competing against each  other for the lowest wages and longest hours just to have a job. The EU does not allow state intervention to stop mass unemployment.
Countries like Greece and Italy are made to impose austerity rather than have a budget deficit and living standards are plunging with life expectancy decreasing and emigration of skilled workers increasing. As the next recession starts more EU members will face the same.


Correct. Theyve lost all control over their own economies and lets face, lost their sovereignty too. The collapse of Greece was a real horror story. They went from being the biggest ship builders in the world to nothing in a matter of months... Its one thing to see a great country collapse, its another thing to see it bankrupted for the next 50 years and worse again to see it completely powerless to do a darn thing about it. Even days away from bankruptcy, yet the germans were still selling them billions of euros worth of weaponry.  That never ending nightmare is light years away from our brexit deal. 
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