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The Brexit bonus...

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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Rob take a breath mate!!!! The above post is all the evidence I need to vote leave. As I have stated on many occasions we all are entitled to our views. Your views are clear and I respect them - I don't agree with them but I respect them. I do not need to keep repeating over and over again my long held reasons for voting to leave. Please remember I was not alone in my decision.

What will be will be - I hope that Boris gets a deal through parliament and we leave on 31/10/2019. Whether this happens or not I have no control over - what I will say is this - my life will not change significantly one way or the other & I have far more important things in my life to be concentrating on.

Think that's fair enough we're all probably at stalemate with this one now. I'm probably a "soft" Remainer but respect the outcome of the vote. The two things from Leave I respect are a dislike of bloated bureaucracy and the decision to sacrifice freedom of movement for stricter border control. I don't agree with the latter, and this also comes with lack of access to the common market (which I admit I don't quite understand as my economics isn't a strong point but many people think this is good), but it was a decision made by many people. I don't see EU membership as being the be all and end all, either, and the UK has significant challenges internally to focus on to which Brexit has been a massive distraction.

Peace, we're all still on the same island together. Well, except Northern Ireland but that brings up a whole fresh can of worms. Wink

The biggest benefit of Brexit, in particular the stalemate in Government and excessive media coverage of it, is that a lot of people are now a lot more politically aware and educated, including myself.

Top post Dr M. Hope that your personal, very understandable issues regarding funding etc are resolved quickly.

Thanks! Yes, it represents change, definitely, and this may work out worse for me and UK academic research in general, but I hope after things settle down new deals, visa systems and so on can be negotiated to get things back to the point they are now. The UK has many industries and I'd like to think my vote - and opinion - was formed after looking at the bigger picture than just my own situation but I acknowledge I'm in a bubble. It's not nice being around so many legitimately stressed people but their stress is largely based on uncertainty, which isn't necessarily due to the outcome of the vote itself but more the domestic and UK-EU politics surrounding it which has been a seemingly never-ending nightmare, as these 70 odd pages testify to. 

Anyway, I should spend some time actually doing some work rather than just posting on SF. That's been the real cost of Brexit. Wink


Edited by dr_martinov - 20 September 2019 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2019 at 11:41am
I watched that cameron docu last night...no doubt timed to sell his book which I wouldnt pay a penny for...He stated it was the fact he vetoed an EU bill on the EU nations pumping in billions to boost the euro in 2011 but was ignored anyway...He requested some concessions for the UK in order to support the euro bill but the EU refused to offer anything in writing...That moment told him we had no influence in the EU and if we were to continue pumping in a net £9/10 billion and all the endless red tape and burocracy....Then we were either in at the top table have a real influence or we were out to go our own way. That moment was the tipping point.. that finally pushed him to offer the referendum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2019 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Come on Rob thats below the belt. Do you really think we leavers are going to take seriously someone who has predicted that we will get 72 points this season!!!! On a serious note I am pretty tired of repeating on this forum the reasons why I voted to leave. Let me give you two of many :-

1. Saving £10 billion per annum;
2. Getting away from a system which every year wastes a quarter of a billion pounds moving HQ's. 

Now you can try and counter this with all the forecast doom & gloom being peddled by the project fear brigade but my reasons have one thing which yours don't - they are facts, undeniable facts. I happen to believe in Britain's ability to thrive post Brexit. Our ability to strike trade deals based on our requirements not 27 others must surely make that another undeniable fact for leaving.

I totally respect your right to have your own opinions but please lets move away from this endless remainer call for supplying good reasons to support our decision to leave. You clearly support the status quo by wishing to remain; that is your prerogative but have you questioned the predicament that Greece, Spain & Portugal have faced in the past 5 years. Do you really think that these countries have really benefitted from their EU membership to the same extent as Germany & France ?. 

A final question - why do you make such an issue of freedom of movement for expat Brits? Do you really believe that they will be forced to sell their villas & get on the first plane home? Millions of people cross closed borders every day perfectly legally without needing to appoint lawyers to deal with the red tape. What is different? Sometimes you have to make miniscule sacrifices for the greater good. It's hardly the battle of Britain.
Ok, lets examine these facts......

1. Saving £10 billion per annum - Fact - Office for Budget Responsibility (government’s independent budget watchdog ) has stated that the UK will save no money from leaving the European Union over the next five years and could be paying its Brexit divorce bill until at least 2064 (mainly in the form of EU pension scheme liabilities)

2. Getting away from a system which every year wastes a quarter of a billion pounds moving HQ's. - It’s more like 100,000 Euros which is still a waste of money I agree.  

3. Britain's ability to thrive post Brexit. Our ability to strike trade deals based on our requirements not 27 others must surely make that another undeniable fact for leaving - All respected forecasts show that the UK will be poorer. Having 27 countries gives you better bargaining power not less so I dn't understand your logic here.

4. have you questioned the predicament that Greece, Spain & Portugal have faced in the past 5 years. Do you really think that these countries have really benefitted from their EU membership the same as Germany - Being in the EU is what’s saving Greece and thanks mainly to Germany who has provided most of the loans to them.

By the way, I loved your line about moving away from needing to give good reasons to support the decision to leave – sums it up nicely. Smile

5. A final question - why do you make such an issue of freedom of movement for expat Brits? - I don’t recall expressing an opinion on the freedom of movement of expat Brits?  That one has gone totally over my head? Sorry.

It's very difficult for me as a remainer to see what leavers see.  Leavers are coming from a very emotional point of view with no substance in reality (prisons are full of Johnny foreigner etc.) whereas remainers are coming from a logical point of view with strong technical reasons for remaining.  







Your last paragraph is overly emotional, lacking in fact and far too generalized. Any nation is better off in control of its own laws. Just as any business or any individual is better off in control of his own life. All the UK and the EU had to do was make an agreement. The fact they couldnt do that in over 3 years is a disgrace. As for your point on Greece, Germany sold them billions of unnecessary weapons just days before they went bankrupt. Now they have a bankrupt shipping industry, no currency, no automony ability to change interest rates, no currency no flexibility and a lifetime of debts to Germany, actually the payback date is 2060


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2019 at 12:38pm
I respect the efforts youve made here you have provided more arguments for remain than cameron and co managed in their entire disappointing remain campaign.

Ive gone through a lot of your 98 points and questioned a few of them.

If a second referendum happens , then every single one of these points should be discussed in detail. Without the name calling the hysteria and the sun headlines. sadly we may have passed that moment

Here 98 reasons why we should:

  1. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP- 
  2. The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
  3. The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China
  4. With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours - How are they stronger than USA? The americans are by far our biggest trading partners
  5. Tariff-free trade within the EU - We have offered them this as their biggest purchaser they said no maybe youre ire should be with them
  6. The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members - Youve already said this
  7. Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member- it did take them many years but they do now have these free trade deals and I agree its a major factor. we have continuity deals with 38 countries so far.
  8. The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services
  9. The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services
  10. Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe
  11. As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners-They ignored our veto on the euro bailout
  12. 3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU
  13. Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)-It has reduced our ability to get workers from outside the EU. It is not free movement for those people.
  14. Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering) We can still advertise these jobs and still recruit inside and outside europe
  15. The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League. - Over paid and exploiting all the endless tax loops the EU has allowed
  16. The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion. Please provide more specific evidence of this massive claim.
  17. Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU - It has also put many off coming here and helped put thousands of sme's out of business
  18. No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market
  19. Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency transactions across the Eurozone
  20. FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market - Youve already covered FDI
  21. The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending) It was net £8.9billion in 2018
  22. No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK) That can be dangerous too
  23. The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU
  24. British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU
  25. Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)Still UK loses £8.9 billion per annum overall
  26. Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire) Again Wales got poorer after this support as it was so overly burocratic in the way it was delivered it didnt get to the right areas..Wales got about £240 million a year at one stage but the net loss to UK as a whole was £8.9 billion per annum..Its approx £90 billion over a decade
  27. Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD) Price fixing cartels for supermarkets...farmers barely farm
  28. EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project- again net loss is £8.9 billion per annum
  29. Financial support from the EU for over 3,000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK- £8.9 billion net loss and the EUs massive pro corporation red tape has obliterated thousands of sme's...how many butchers bakers milkmen etc etc do you see anymore? The EU allowed Uber to march through europe and wipe out the taxi trade and many other sectors...they allowed them to pay miniscule taxes no licensing fees oh and the lady who allowed them in nelli kroes decided to leave the unelected EU commission to join uber...you couldnt make this stuff up
  30. EU funding for the British film industry- again the net loss is £8.9 billion. Theyre simply giving us a small bit of our own money back but telling us how to spend it and getting the credit for it..this is madness...should I thank a burglar the next time he hands me some of my property back?
  31. EU funding for British theatre, music and dance- See above net loss £8.9 billion p/a
  32. EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league-See above net loss £8.9 billion p/a
  33. Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies See above net loss £8.9 billion p/a
  34. EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices - oh yes what a job theyve done..amazon and google have 100s of billions just lying in european tax free accounts...didnt do much on illegal chinese steel either
  35. Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU- please show me these controls and how effective theyve been
  36. Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights - where are the rights of foreign workers outside the eu who want to work here? Or the african nations who cant afford the tariffs we have imposed on their products?
  37. The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership
  38. Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law
  39. The right to reside in any EU member state
  40. The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions- this brings with it other dangers and also limits people outside the eu.
  41. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU..we could have agreed that without the endless burocracy red tape expense £8.9 billion...not to forget the promise of the eu army etc
  42. The mutual recognition of educational diplomas
  43. The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU
  44. The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK) we could agree that anyway
  45. The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)
  46. The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries- have you actually tried it? Its anything but easy
  47. The ability to retire in any member state-again we could agree to all these things
  48. Pension transferability
  49. The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state
  50. EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent
  51. The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card) we can agree this
  52. Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU
  53. The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference) we can sign up to this although to have 500 million all having to agree to the same policy will become counter productive. Its too inflexible. Take the demand for electric cars. Its simply not realistic as a silver bullet solution across the world. The UN and NATO need more teeth
  54. Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)
  55. Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation...How does the EU ban on governments subsidisng national transport infrastructure help global warming? It doesnt.
  56. Reductions in sewage emissions - please provide evidence
  57. Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water
  58. EU standards on the quality of drinking water- We can still sign up to this and should
  59. Restrictions on landfill dumping
  60. EU targets for recycling
  61. Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste
  62. The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas - Please provide evidence of this
  63. EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms - Please provide evidence of this
  64. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks
  65. Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)
  66. Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry - Thats great we must stay on board with this
  67. Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London) Again we must and surely will agree to this
  68. 13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation
  69. The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research net loss £8.9 billion its OUR money theyre giving us
  70. EU funding for UK universities
  71. Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom
  72. Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)
  73. Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957. This is ensrined in british law. If either gender is underpaid on grounds of gender they can sue for damages
  74. The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime. is this part of the deal we rejected?
  75. Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women
  76. Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth
  77. EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation. Not doing much on disability are they?
  78. EU rules governing health and safety at work
  79. The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law
  80. The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area. Schengen only
  81. Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget. Net loss £8.9 billion
  82. EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime...Open unchecked borders makes this more difficult.
  83. The European common arrest warrant
  84. Europe-wide patent and copyright protection
  85. EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety
  86. Improved food labeling
  87. A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives - We must sign up to this , was this included in the deal we rejected?
  88. Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws
  89. Common EU air passenger rights
  90. Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices - Overall this is possibly true but more evidence would be great
  91. Mutual recognition of the common European driving license
  92. The introduction of the European pet passport
  93. The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges
  94. The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement
  95. A frictionless Irish border - Its on the EU to show how they can provide this
  96. The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar
  97. The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists - More evidence on their direct influence would be appreciated here
  98. EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue






Edited by roy munster - 21 September 2019 at 2:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2019 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Getting rid of the criminals from the EU even after they have served their sentence is nearly impossible now.
After Brexit with further controls it will surely be easier.
As for Europe being 27 members with equal rites anyone who believes that is living in serious denial.
The Germans have taken over Europe this time without firing a single bullet. The French are their lap dogs the others are either too much in debt or too poor to make a difference. 
Ireland are so skint that they will do anything the EU says hence the difficulty with the back stop. 
Still waiting to hear as to the benefits of staying in
Again, we see here some very emotional points which the man in the pub will lap up and believe without question.

Benefits of staying in the EU incude..

1. The UK will be more prosperous,
2. Our security will be stronger,
3. Our workers rights will be protected,
4. Wales will definitaley be better off.

These are 4 that I thought of for myself and here are 98 reasons that someone prepared for me.....


Here 98 reasons why we should:

  1. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP
  2. The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
  3. The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China
  4. With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours
  5. Tariff-free trade within the EU
  6. The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members
  7. Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member
  8. The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services
  9. The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services
  10. Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe
  11. As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners
  12. 3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU
  13. Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)
  14. Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering)
  15. The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League
  16. The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion
  17. Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU
  18. No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market
  19. Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency transactions across the Eurozone
  20. FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market
  21. The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending)
  22. No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK)
  23. The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU
  24. British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU
  25. Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)
  26. Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire)
  27. Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD)
  28. EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project
  29. Financial support from the EU for over 3,000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK
  30. EU funding for the British film industry
  31. EU funding for British theatre, music and dance
  32. EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league
  33. Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies
  34. EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices
  35. Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU
  36. Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
  37. The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership
  38. Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law
  39. The right to reside in any EU member state
  40. The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions
  41. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU
  42. The mutual recognition of educational diplomas
  43. The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU
  44. The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK)
  45. The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)
  46. The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries
  47. The ability to retire in any member state
  48. Pension transferability
  49. The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state
  50. EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent
  51. The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card)
  52. Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU
  53. The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference)
  54. Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)
  55. Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation
  56. Reductions in sewage emissions
  57. Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water
  58. EU standards on the quality of drinking water
  59. Restrictions on landfill dumping
  60. EU targets for recycling
  61. Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste
  62. The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas
  63. EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms
  64. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks
  65. Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)
  66. Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry
  67. Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London)
  68. 13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation
  69. The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research
  70. EU funding for UK universities
  71. Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom
  72. Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)
  73. Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957
  74. The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime
  75. Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women
  76. Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth
  77. EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation
  78. EU rules governing health and safety at work
  79. The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law
  80. The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area
  81. Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget
  82. EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime
  83. The European common arrest warrant
  84. Europe-wide patent and copyright protection
  85. EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety
  86. Improved food labeling
  87. A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives
  88. Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws
  89. Common EU air passenger rights
  90. Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices
  91. Mutual recognition of the common European driving license
  92. The introduction of the European pet passport
  93. The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges
  94. The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement
  95. A frictionless Irish border
  96. The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar
  97. The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists
  98. EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue




Your 98 points come from a remain group look at the link huge clue there.
Your four points are not correct 
It us the leavers that say we will not be more prosperous no one knows yet it's matter of pure conjecture. Initially yes but in long term even governor of Bank of England,an arch remainer, has admitted no one can give long term accurate forecasts. 
we are major player and lead in most of the  security of Europe and the World and will remain to do so, I know from personal experience.
We are going to work to the same human and workers rights we have now so how workers rights will be worse I don't know.
As far as Wales being poorer that again is opinion you can't say that for sure.

If as you say I am speaking in pub talk perhaps we just drink in different pubs. 


 

She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2019 at 11:59am
Good post Why. It's obviously bad short-term due to the uncertainty, remaking deals at financial cost etc. and a large part of the vote to remain was based upon preserving the status quo let's face it. Leave voters wanted change. But even I as a remain voter think it'll probably not make much difference long term to the UK. But as you say there's no way of predicting future economics to prove whether it was/is a good move or not. We'll be stuck in that anything bad happens will be the fault of Brexit while anything good will be due to it. Some will have some truth behind them, some not. But everyone likes a scapegoat and we'll be losing ours (the EU) soon and it will be replaced by another (Brexit - or the terms set by the EU).

There is a very straightforward choice of decreased access to the EU common market if we wish stricter border control, simple as that, we can't have both. There is also the very straightforward choice that a GFA soft border between the Republic of Ireland and NI is incompatible with having stricter border control AND keeping the same laws in NI as the rest of the UK. These decisions simply have to be made and not everyone will be happy with the outcome. This is where populist politics and empty rhetoric fails because they offer no actual solutions.

I'm more concerned with domestic politics in truth and we are inevitably seeing a Boris-led Tory majority with the likes of Raab, Patel, Javid, Rees-Mogg fronting the bench. I am not sure what impact they will have on the country as a whole and impoverished areas such as Wales in particular. I do not trust them one bit or believe they will invest into public services. Their obsession with low tax and other policies I believe only aims to please the wealthy and encourages selfish greed. Brexit is either a political weapon they are using to achieve power (Boris very obviously has done so, yet people don't seem to mind?) or something that they know will only benefit them and not the country as a whole. 

I like your last sentence "If as you say I am speaking in pub talk perhaps we just drink in different pubs." but we are actually in the same pub and there are no other ones in the village; that's the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 53 minutes ago at 5:51pm
we're fed so many lies half lies half truths mis information on all sides ...its harder to know fact from fiction

Take an argument with rees mogg on london radio...


He says the CBI conferdation of british industry is part funded by the EU and has a contract therefore that it cannot criticize the eu..the caller claims JRM misleads as its only 1% of the CBI budget

Heres another the recent spat in a childrens ward with boris and a worried dad, shows the man to be a labour activits, does that matter? I dont know but in all these cases when the news is reported surely these so called experts can point out both sides of the story

Theres endless claims by leave that all those with EU pensions and contracts like mandelson kinnocks etc etc are not allowed to directly attack the eu as its in breach of their contracts and threatens their large pensions...kinnock has said this is a pack of lies? who's lying?



Edited by roy munster - 10 hours 47 minutes ago at 1:57am
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 hours 44 minutes ago at 7:00pm
If Mandelson said it was raining I would open the curtains to check.
Man is the most disgusting example of a person who has used and abused the system to his own advantage.
For the record there are tories lib dems and Labour who have lived off the gravy train but I find Mandleson the lowest of the low. 
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 51 minutes ago at 8:53am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

we're fed so many lies half lies half truths mis information on all sides ...its harder to know fact from fiction

Take an argument with rees mogg on london radio...


He says the CBI conferdation of british industry is part funded by the EU and has a contract therefore that it cannot criticize the eu..the caller claims JRM misleads as its only 1% of the CBI budget

Heres another the recent spat in a childrens ward with boris and a worried dad, shows the man to be a labour activits, does that matter? I dont know but in all these cases when the news is reported surely these so called experts can point out both sides of the story

Theres endless claims by leave that all those with EU pensions and contracts like mandelson kinnocks etc etc are not allowed to directly attack the eu as its in breach of their contracts and threatens their large pensions...kinnock has said this is a pack of lies? who's lying?


I'm afraid since Brexit started Roy this has been the case. In addition we have the EU saying they are yet to see the UK's suggested solutions to replace the backstop when all the time they have been given a list of possibilities so that they can study and respond. I do not select one side of the argument from the other in this criticism but our population would have been far better served if those in positions of authority took measured & considered positions rather than making outrageous threats/promises which are understandably seized upon by the populace in general. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2 hours 28 minutes ago at 10:16am
Im not against a second referendum but whatever side of the fence were on its outrageous for politicians to ignore the democratic vote. The arrogance of these politicians is staggering. They think the public are uninformed and clueless when it is in fact they that are clueless and totally unprofessional. The fact is british mps have coasted for decades. gifting away 75% of the laws made in parliament to either europe or local governments. That has left mps with 75% less work and 75% more time to do endless sideline projects , sideline businesses, investors with conflicts of interests like rees mogg or jeremy hunt which should simply be outlawed...reality tv, ghost writing columns, fiddling expenses, oh and jumping parties mid term ? How do the towns with these mp's feel about all that? Id also add we still have women only shortlists which is also undemocratic illegal and has 50% less chance of finding the best mp for the job
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