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The stunning resurrection of Aaron Shingler

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:58am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can't see Warburton getting back in the starting 15 in all honesty. Aaron, Taulupe, & Josh for me with Sam/Ross on the bench. 
Warburton's a different level to Navidi when fully fit

Sam is not a 7 in my mind especially if you want to play an offloading attack orientated game. He is an excellent defensive player who is good over the ball - a no 6 really and not in the same all round league as Aaron.
I love Shingler he's a terrific player but saying that one of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time isn't in his league is stretching it a bit

One of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time is the only comment I find as stretching it a bit. Sam against Aaron is a no brainer for me - when for instance have you seen Sam making  line breaks with the pace that Aaron has; when did you last see Sam make an offload, win opposition line out ball. We are talking different animals. Wales have stipulated that they want to play a fast offloading game so you therefore have to pick players who are comfortable with that gameplan. Warburton is a defensive player, excellent at what he does, but there is no place for that type of player ( another is Lydiate) in a team which wants to play a wide, fast offloading game.

Of course there is a place for a player of Warburton's quality, FFS. And as far as I can see nobody is suggesting Warburton should replace Aaron but rather Navidi.

Aaron has upped his game immensely and on top of his attacking flair he is being used to great effect shooting out of the defensive line because he was never a great defender in that he tended to concede metres on the gainline. But as games like Saturday's demostrated, you need strong players defensively who can tackle an stop players on the gainline as much as you need players with Aaron's skill set.

Not sure what to make of your suggestion of Josh in that backrow alongside Aaron and Faletau either. 

Well what is the problem you have with Navidi in my back row?. FFS he's been playing there for the first two games. With regard to having good defensive players stopping people on the gainline - have we been bad at that in the first two games? As I continually state we have to firstly understand what our gameplan is and pick players accordingly. If you want to play a 10 man kick and chase game then Warburton plays every time. If you want players comfortable with the ball in their hands then he does not. I am afraid the term World Class is thrown around far too easily. We have two players who are in that category at the moment - Foxy and Faletau. Warburton, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near

I think it's fair to say you are in the minority there, but that's not the point.

The point is that everything Navidi does, Warbarton can do it even better.

And that no matter how loose and expansive a game you want to play, you still need to have players who are solid defensively, to avoid being always on the back foot, like both Scarlets and Wales were this weekend. Oh, and that doesn't mean Warburton is only a great defender.
I think you're spot on there

From those comments you would deduce that we have not been solid defensively in the first two games. Not according to my eyes. To beat the best teams in the World you have to have more than just a very strong defence - look at Wales and Warburton's record against the southern hemisphere sides - abyssmal. He is a destructive player well suited to the 6 role. Contributors who are putting him in the top 3 7's in the World are, in my opinion, delusional & unfamiliar with the role of a modern day 7.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:07am
I'd say that Warburton's natural position is as a destructive 6 where he was clearly better than Lydiate, Gatland's previous favourite. If he wants to play a more open game he clearly can't drop Shingler . Warburton is not a great creative openside, but could have been useful in slowing down the likes of England's huge pack and putting in some tackles that would have prevented  them crossing the gain line. However, GPR, Scarletnut has now spoken so there's no point using arguments or logic to try to justify your position.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

I'd say that Warburton's natural position is as a destructive 6 where he was clearly better than Lydiate, Gatland's previous favourite. If he wants to play a more open game he clearly can't drop Shingler . Warburton is not a great creative openside, but could have been useful in slowing down the likes of England's huge pack and putting in some tackles that would have prevented  them crossing the gain line. However, GPR, Scarletnut has now spoken so there's no point using arguments or logic to try to justify your position.      

ha ha Ffidel - well we are all entitled to an opinion. Someone even suggested that Warburton was one of the top 3 open sides in the World. I wonder if they have forgotten about the following :-

Michael Hooper, David Pocock, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Sean O'Brien & Francois Louw. Personally I would select most of these ahead of Sam at 7 if I wanted to play creatively which, if I am not mistaken, Gatland is committed to. I would also select a few Welsh 7's ahead of Sam with that gameplan - Cubby being one. 

Sam is great when you are trying to keep the scoreboard down as we usually are against NZ.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can't see Warburton getting back in the starting 15 in all honesty. Aaron, Taulupe, & Josh for me with Sam/Ross on the bench. 
Warburton's a different level to Navidi when fully fit

Sam is not a 7 in my mind especially if you want to play an offloading attack orientated game. He is an excellent defensive player who is good over the ball - a no 6 really and not in the same all round league as Aaron.
I love Shingler he's a terrific player but saying that one of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time isn't in his league is stretching it a bit

One of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time is the only comment I find as stretching it a bit. Sam against Aaron is a no brainer for me - when for instance have you seen Sam making  line breaks with the pace that Aaron has; when did you last see Sam make an offload, win opposition line out ball. We are talking different animals. Wales have stipulated that they want to play a fast offloading game so you therefore have to pick players who are comfortable with that gameplan. Warburton is a defensive player, excellent at what he does, but there is no place for that type of player ( another is Lydiate) in a team which wants to play a wide, fast offloading game.

Of course there is a place for a player of Warburton's quality, FFS. And as far as I can see nobody is suggesting Warburton should replace Aaron but rather Navidi.

Aaron has upped his game immensely and on top of his attacking flair he is being used to great effect shooting out of the defensive line because he was never a great defender in that he tended to concede metres on the gainline. But as games like Saturday's demostrated, you need strong players defensively who can tackle an stop players on the gainline as much as you need players with Aaron's skill set.

Not sure what to make of your suggestion of Josh in that backrow alongside Aaron and Faletau either. 

Well what is the problem you have with Navidi in my back row?. FFS he's been playing there for the first two games. With regard to having good defensive players stopping people on the gainline - have we been bad at that in the first two games? As I continually state we have to firstly understand what our gameplan is and pick players accordingly. If you want to play a 10 man kick and chase game then Warburton plays every time. If you want players comfortable with the ball in their hands then he does not. I am afraid the term World Class is thrown around far too easily. We have two players who are in that category at the moment - Foxy and Faletau. Warburton, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near

I think it's fair to say you are in the minority there, but that's not the point.

The point is that everything Navidi does, Warbarton can do it even better.

And that no matter how loose and expansive a game you want to play, you still need to have players who are solid defensively, to avoid being always on the back foot, like both Scarlets and Wales were this weekend. Oh, and that doesn't mean Warburton is only a great defender.
I think you're spot on there

From those comments you would deduce that we have not been solid defensively in the first two games. Not according to my eyes. To beat the best teams in the World you have to have more than just a very strong defence - look at Wales and Warburton's record against the southern hemisphere sides - abyssmal. He is a destructive player well suited to the 6 role. Contributors who are putting him in the top 3 7's in the World are, in my opinion, delusional & unfamiliar with the role of a modern day 7.

Scarletnut - your comments regarding Lions captain has me thinking. You would put him ahead of Dawes, Willie-John McBryde & Martin Johnson would you? Do you happen to live in Cardiff?????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AstroScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can't see Warburton getting back in the starting 15 in all honesty. Aaron, Taulupe, & Josh for me with Sam/Ross on the bench. 
Warburton's a different level to Navidi when fully fit

Sam is not a 7 in my mind especially if you want to play an offloading attack orientated game. He is an excellent defensive player who is good over the ball - a no 6 really and not in the same all round league as Aaron.
I love Shingler he's a terrific player but saying that one of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time isn't in his league is stretching it a bit

One of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time is the only comment I find as stretching it a bit. Sam against Aaron is a no brainer for me - when for instance have you seen Sam making  line breaks with the pace that Aaron has; when did you last see Sam make an offload, win opposition line out ball. We are talking different animals. Wales have stipulated that they want to play a fast offloading game so you therefore have to pick players who are comfortable with that gameplan. Warburton is a defensive player, excellent at what he does, but there is no place for that type of player ( another is Lydiate) in a team which wants to play a wide, fast offloading game.

Of course there is a place for a player of Warburton's quality, FFS. And as far as I can see nobody is suggesting Warburton should replace Aaron but rather Navidi.

Aaron has upped his game immensely and on top of his attacking flair he is being used to great effect shooting out of the defensive line because he was never a great defender in that he tended to concede metres on the gainline. But as games like Saturday's demostrated, you need strong players defensively who can tackle an stop players on the gainline as much as you need players with Aaron's skill set.

Not sure what to make of your suggestion of Josh in that backrow alongside Aaron and Faletau either. 

Well what is the problem you have with Navidi in my back row?. FFS he's been playing there for the first two games. With regard to having good defensive players stopping people on the gainline - have we been bad at that in the first two games? As I continually state we have to firstly understand what our gameplan is and pick players accordingly. If you want to play a 10 man kick and chase game then Warburton plays every time. If you want players comfortable with the ball in their hands then he does not. I am afraid the term World Class is thrown around far too easily. We have two players who are in that category at the moment - Foxy and Faletau. Warburton, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near

I think it's fair to say you are in the minority there, but that's not the point.

The point is that everything Navidi does, Warbarton can do it even better.

And that no matter how loose and expansive a game you want to play, you still need to have players who are solid defensively, to avoid being always on the back foot, like both Scarlets and Wales were this weekend. Oh, and that doesn't mean Warburton is only a great defender.
I think you're spot on there

From those comments you would deduce that we have not been solid defensively in the first two games. Not according to my eyes. To beat the best teams in the World you have to have more than just a very strong defence - look at Wales and Warburton's record against the southern hemisphere sides - abyssmal. He is a destructive player well suited to the 6 role. Contributors who are putting him in the top 3 7's in the World are, in my opinion, delusional & unfamiliar with the role of a modern day 7.

Scarletnut - your comments regarding Lions captain has me thinking. You would put him ahead of Dawes, Willie-John McBryde & Martin Johnson would you? Do you happen to live in Cardiff?????

What you make of him as a captain in comparison to those names is up to you, but the facts speak for themselves. Back to back tourist, back to back captain (something only Johnson has done) and has yet to lose a series one of which included the All Blacks. So yes I think its safe to say he is one of the most successful Lions captains of all-time.

'Stand up at home if you're watching, that was one of the Heineken Cup great tries'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by AstroScarlet AstroScarlet wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can't see Warburton getting back in the starting 15 in all honesty. Aaron, Taulupe, & Josh for me with Sam/Ross on the bench. 
Warburton's a different level to Navidi when fully fit

Sam is not a 7 in my mind especially if you want to play an offloading attack orientated game. He is an excellent defensive player who is good over the ball - a no 6 really and not in the same all round league as Aaron.
I love Shingler he's a terrific player but saying that one of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time isn't in his league is stretching it a bit

One of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time is the only comment I find as stretching it a bit. Sam against Aaron is a no brainer for me - when for instance have you seen Sam making  line breaks with the pace that Aaron has; when did you last see Sam make an offload, win opposition line out ball. We are talking different animals. Wales have stipulated that they want to play a fast offloading game so you therefore have to pick players who are comfortable with that gameplan. Warburton is a defensive player, excellent at what he does, but there is no place for that type of player ( another is Lydiate) in a team which wants to play a wide, fast offloading game.

Of course there is a place for a player of Warburton's quality, FFS. And as far as I can see nobody is suggesting Warburton should replace Aaron but rather Navidi.

Aaron has upped his game immensely and on top of his attacking flair he is being used to great effect shooting out of the defensive line because he was never a great defender in that he tended to concede metres on the gainline. But as games like Saturday's demostrated, you need strong players defensively who can tackle an stop players on the gainline as much as you need players with Aaron's skill set.

Not sure what to make of your suggestion of Josh in that backrow alongside Aaron and Faletau either. 

Well what is the problem you have with Navidi in my back row?. FFS he's been playing there for the first two games. With regard to having good defensive players stopping people on the gainline - have we been bad at that in the first two games? As I continually state we have to firstly understand what our gameplan is and pick players accordingly. If you want to play a 10 man kick and chase game then Warburton plays every time. If you want players comfortable with the ball in their hands then he does not. I am afraid the term World Class is thrown around far too easily. We have two players who are in that category at the moment - Foxy and Faletau. Warburton, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near

I think it's fair to say you are in the minority there, but that's not the point.

The point is that everything Navidi does, Warbarton can do it even better.

And that no matter how loose and expansive a game you want to play, you still need to have players who are solid defensively, to avoid being always on the back foot, like both Scarlets and Wales were this weekend. Oh, and that doesn't mean Warburton is only a great defender.
I think you're spot on there

From those comments you would deduce that we have not been solid defensively in the first two games. Not according to my eyes. To beat the best teams in the World you have to have more than just a very strong defence - look at Wales and Warburton's record against the southern hemisphere sides - abyssmal. He is a destructive player well suited to the 6 role. Contributors who are putting him in the top 3 7's in the World are, in my opinion, delusional & unfamiliar with the role of a modern day 7.

Scarletnut - your comments regarding Lions captain has me thinking. You would put him ahead of Dawes, Willie-John McBryde & Martin Johnson would you? Do you happen to live in Cardiff?????

What you make of him as a captain in comparison to those names is up to you, but the facts speak for themselves. Back to back tourist, back to back captain (something only Johnson has done) and has yet to lose a series one of which included the All Blacks. So yes I think its safe to say he is one of the most successful Lions captains of all-time.


Well it very much depends on how wide we are prepared to go with the term one of the greatest. For me the greatest was Willie-John for his unbeaten long tour of South Africa, followed by Dawes for his incredible achievement of winning in New Zealand in 1971, followed by Martin Johnson's defeat of the reigning World Champions in South Africa. So Sam doesn't make my top 3 Lions captains nor my top 3 7's as it happens. 

As I have said we are entitled to our opinions but I am certainly not a paid up member of the Sam Warburton fan club as some on here most definitely are. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 2:01pm
Gotta love SF at times.....a thread dedicated to how well Aaron Shingler is doing and it disintegrates into a pissing contest about Sam Warberton Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Gotta love SF at times.....a thread dedicated to how well Aaron Shingler is doing and it disintegrates into a pissing contest about Sam Warberton Ouch

I think I must take the wrap for that SGS. I was the one who suggested that Sam would find it difficult to get back into the 1st choice back row such had been the form shown by our own Aaron. That seemed to open the floodgates - my apologies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Feverpitch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Exkixu Exkixu wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Can't see Warburton getting back in the starting 15 in all honesty. Aaron, Taulupe, & Josh for me with Sam/Ross on the bench. 
Warburton's a different level to Navidi when fully fit


Sam is not a 7 in my mind especially if you want to play an offloading attack orientated game. He is an excellent defensive player who is good over the ball - a no 6 really and not in the same all round league as Aaron.
I love Shingler he's a terrific player but saying that one of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time isn't in his league is stretching it a bit


One of the most successful British & Irish Lions captains of all time is the only comment I find as stretching it a bit. Sam against Aaron is a no brainer for me - when for instance have you seen Sam making  line breaks with the pace that Aaron has; when did you last see Sam make an offload, win opposition line out ball. We are talking different animals. Wales have stipulated that they want to play a fast offloading game so you therefore have to pick players who are comfortable with that gameplan. Warburton is a defensive player, excellent at what he does, but there is no place for that type of player ( another is Lydiate) in a team which wants to play a wide, fast offloading game.


Of course there is a place for a player of Warburton's quality, FFS. And as far as I can see nobody is suggesting Warburton should replace Aaron but rather Navidi.

Aaron has upped his game immensely and on top of his attacking flair he is being used to great effect shooting out of the defensive line because he was never a great defender in that he tended to concede metres on the gainline. But as games like Saturday's demostrated, you need strong players defensively who can tackle an stop players on the gainline as much as you need players with Aaron's skill set.

Not sure what to make of your suggestion of Josh in that backrow alongside Aaron and Faletau either. 


Well what is the problem you have with Navidi in my back row?. FFS he's been playing there for the first two games. With regard to having good defensive players stopping people on the gainline - have we been bad at that in the first two games? As I continually state we have to firstly understand what our gameplan is and pick players accordingly. If you want to play a 10 man kick and chase game then Warburton plays every time. If you want players comfortable with the ball in their hands then he does not. I am afraid the term World Class is thrown around far too easily. We have two players who are in that category at the moment - Foxy and Faletau. Warburton, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near


I think it's fair to say you are in the minority there, but that's not the point.

The point is that everything Navidi does, Warbarton can do it even better.

And that no matter how loose and expansive a game you want to play, you still need to have players who are solid defensively, to avoid being always on the back foot, like both Scarlets and Wales were this weekend. Oh, and that doesn't mean Warburton is only a great defender.
I think you're spot on there


From those comments you would deduce that we have not been solid defensively in the first two games. Not according to my eyes. To beat the best teams in the World you have to have more than just a very strong defence - look at Wales and Warburton's record against the southern hemisphere sides - abyssmal. He is a destructive player well suited to the 6 role. Contributors who are putting him in the top 3 7's in the World are, in my opinion, delusional & unfamiliar with the role of a modern day 7.


He didn't say greatest captain but most successful which I think you'd have to agree with going on the evidence of not having lost a test series.

Edited by Feverpitch - 13 February 2018 at 4:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 5:46pm
Not really - you surely have to factor in the opposition. Australia were fairly weak at the time whereas Dawes & Willie-John were up against pretty tasty teams. Johnson's Lions beat the reigning World Champions not drew the series. As I have said it is all a matter of opinion and I respect others just don't necessarily agree. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Iwlew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 7:37pm
A shame that Warburton has been hit with injuries over the last few years. When fit he is one of the best 7's in rugby.
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