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This "no arms" chop tackle

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KID A View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 September 2015 at 10:34am
From matches this weekend - One gets a yellow, one gets play on. Which one is correct?

https://vine.co/v/eFjIW0v0EA5

https://vine.co/v/eFDj5WqUHev

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 11:03am
There was some arm movement in the other game towards a tackle I guess but none from Pete Edwards. Pete's just looked clumsy as putting your head on the ground in front of Nick Williams was a bit crazy of Pete and dangerous for him not Williams. A yellow card for this is pretty harsh regardless although I think there had been a warning from the ref prior to that ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 11:59am
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:


There was some arm movement in the other game towards a tackle I guess but none from Pete Edwards. Pete's just looked clumsy as putting your head on the ground in front of Nick Williams was a bit crazy of Pete and dangerous for him not Williams. A yellow card for this is pretty harsh regardless although I think there had been a warning from the ref prior to that ?


I have absolutely no problem if every one of these is now going to be a yellow card.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 12:07pm
Be a lot of yellows.

As well as Williams, Shingler should have had one late on if applied consistently.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScarletSpiderman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Be a lot of yellows.

As well as Williams, Shingler should have had one late on if applied consistently.



Looked at the Shingler one just now. A lot of Ulster fans online complaining about it. To me it looked like Shingler was there and Scholes ran into him, more than a no-arms tackle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 1:09pm
Would like to see the other angle on Pete's incident, but it look as if neither arm is  in front of the body to even resemble a tackle.

I think the other on is just a mistimed tackle ! After all who expects Irish Props to have a turn of speed like that ! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

There was some arm movement in the other game towards a tackle I guess but none from Pete Edwards. Pete's just looked clumsy as putting your head on the ground in front of Nick Williams was a bit crazy of Pete and dangerous for him not Williams. A yellow card for this is pretty harsh regardless although I think there had been a warning from the ref prior to that ?

This is the first I've heard of this new law/directive.

It seems crazy. The 'no arms' law was brought in to stop body checks of the type where the defender runs into the ball carrier, usually smashing him with a shoulder to the upper body (I LOVED doing this as a player - it was legal in those days!). 

Pretty clearly, it can be quite tricky to get the arms involved in time if you are going for the shins - even if you intend to wrap the arms around the legs, getting the timing right isn't easy. More importantly, the tackler is FAR more likely to get hurt than the tackled player. This change is ridiculous, IMHO - are there any stats to show that this tackle causes many serious injuries to the tackled player? I doubt it...

Three additional thoughts:

Does this mark the end of Lydiate's test career?

Is this directive in force for the RWC? (Players haven't had time to get used to it.)

Under a strict interpretation, I assume ankle taps must also be illegal under this directive - can that really be the case?






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrfwon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

From matches this weekend - One gets a yellow, one gets play on. Which one is correct?

https://vine.co/v/eFjIW0v0EA5

https://vine.co/v/eFDj5WqUHev

No arm tackle aside, when is Nick going to get cited for leading into tackles with his shoulder?????????? AngryAngryAngryAngryAngry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2015 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

From matches this weekend - One gets a yellow, one gets play on. Which one is correct?

https://vine.co/v/eFjIW0v0EA5

https://vine.co/v/eFDj5WqUHev



We were already on a warning of a yellow for the next no arms tackle because Aled had commited one previously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2015 at 8:13am
This hardening of the law by referees will go the same way as crooked scrum feeds and the 5 second "use it" rules. Tough early on and then nothing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2015 at 8:57am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

There was some arm movement in the other game towards a tackle I guess but none from Pete Edwards. Pete's just looked clumsy as putting your head on the ground in front of Nick Williams was a bit crazy of Pete and dangerous for him not Williams. A yellow card for this is pretty harsh regardless although I think there had been a warning from the ref prior to that ?

This is the first I've heard of this new law/directive.

It seems crazy. The 'no arms' law was brought in to stop body checks of the type where the defender runs into the ball carrier, usually smashing him with a shoulder to the upper body (I LOVED doing this as a player - it was legal in those days!). 

Pretty clearly, it can be quite tricky to get the arms involved in time if you are going for the shins - even if you intend to wrap the arms around the legs, getting the timing right isn't easy. More importantly, the tackler is FAR more likely to get hurt than the tackled player. This change is ridiculous, IMHO - are there any stats to show that this tackle causes many serious injuries to the tackled player? I doubt it...

Three additional thoughts:

Does this mark the end of Lydiate's test career?

Is this directive in force for the RWC? (Players haven't had time to get used to it.)

Under a strict interpretation, I assume ankle taps must also be illegal under this directive - can that really be the case?







There is NO NEW LAW OR DIRECTIVE. 

The LAW has always been that "arms must be used in a tackle" as long as I've been Playing/Coaching/Refereeing. 

Every now and again, a wide eyed coach thinks he'll try and push the boundaries of law, then another coach says "if they're doing it, we're doing it" until it becomes an everyday occurrence in the game, look at "The Hit", the "Lineout Lift" and the "Kickoff Receiver Lift", not to forget the Lee Byrne "Leading with the knee (then foot out) kick receive".

It's the natural relationship between Cop & Baddie, every time there is a law, there is someone on the other side trying to find a way to break it without being detected. One that has crept in lately & be berated on here is the 2nd man in clearing opposition players that are not bound ! Really p****es me off that one !


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2015 at 9:14am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

There is NO NEW LAW OR DIRECTIVE. 


Ulster commentator out of touch again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrsMTCEujBU#t=41m25s

Edited by KID A - 15 September 2015 at 9:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2015 at 10:22am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

There is NO NEW LAW OR DIRECTIVE. 


Ulster commentator out of touch again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrsMTCEujBU#t=41m25s

As in previous thread,

2015/2016 Directive !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2015 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

There was some arm movement in the other game towards a tackle I guess but none from Pete Edwards. Pete's just looked clumsy as putting your head on the ground in front of Nick Williams was a bit crazy of Pete and dangerous for him not Williams. A yellow card for this is pretty harsh regardless although I think there had been a warning from the ref prior to that ?

This is the first I've heard of this new law/directive.

It seems crazy. The 'no arms' law was brought in to stop body checks of the type where the defender runs into the ball carrier, usually smashing him with a shoulder to the upper body (I LOVED doing this as a player - it was legal in those days!). 

Pretty clearly, it can be quite tricky to get the arms involved in time if you are going for the shins - even if you intend to wrap the arms around the legs, getting the timing right isn't easy. More importantly, the tackler is FAR more likely to get hurt than the tackled player. This change is ridiculous, IMHO - are there any stats to show that this tackle causes many serious injuries to the tackled player? I doubt it...

Three additional thoughts:

Does this mark the end of Lydiate's test career?

Is this directive in force for the RWC? (Players haven't had time to get used to it.)

Under a strict interpretation, I assume ankle taps must also be illegal under this directive - can that really be the case?







There is NO NEW LAW OR DIRECTIVE. 

The LAW has always been that "arms must be used in a tackle" as long as I've been Playing/Coaching/Refereeing. 

Every now and again, a wide eyed coach thinks he'll try and push the boundaries of law, then another coach says "if they're doing it, we're doing it" until it becomes an everyday occurrence in the game, look at "The Hit", the "Lineout Lift" and the "Kickoff Receiver Lift", not to forget the Lee Byrne "Leading with the knee (then foot out) kick receive".

It's the natural relationship between Cop & Baddie, every time there is a law, there is someone on the other side trying to find a way to break it without being detected. One that has crept in lately & be berated on here is the 2nd man in clearing opposition players that are not bound ! Really p****es me off that one !



I'm amazed to read this, as I have (in 55 years of watching rugby) NEVER seen players warned or yellow carded for tackling anyone around the shins before it happened to Pete. (Indeed, at school we were ALWAYS told to tackle opponents around the legs. I suppose the arms would usually be involved, but as I wrote earlier, it's not always possible to time that right if someone runs into you.)

It seems to me that if everyone were to apply the law in the same way, Lydiate's test career - or even his playing career - would be at an end. And I'm sure he's not the only one. I also doubt that the Scarlets' coaches have been teaching Pete to shin tackle players in practice sessions - the mind boggles!

As for your second point - I don't think the clearing out of non-bound players is recent, as I've been complaining about it for years. The Scots and Irish are pretty nifty at this, as no doubt are the ABs (who usually invent new ways to cheat, but are quick to learn from others), and the Aussies (remember their scrum ploy of sending the wing forward out as a 'blocker' so that the 8 could score from 5-yard scrums?).

It's a pity IMO that we won't have Nigel O as a ref at the RWC - streets ahead of most other refs - let's hope we get some decent ones, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2015 at 5:41pm
It's not "tackling" though is it. Because no arms were used.

I have no problem with it as a law. As long as every one is now given a yellow card.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2015 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

It's not "tackling" though is it. Because no arms were used.

I have no problem with it as a law. As long as every one is now given a yellow card.


Fair enough - I can see quite a few 7 a side games coming up!

As for it's not tackling - again, correct as for the letter of the law. Why wasn't this enforced for the last 55 years, then? Could it be that no-one ever got hurt by a no-arm chop tackle, as opposed to the rightly banned spear tackle and (now) neck-twist? I'm very pleased those have been banned, AND that players are being penalised and/or binned for them.
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