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Tom Williams joins on loan

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Gate12 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 2:51pm

Generally there's little to fault in the development approach taken historically and I don't think I've indicated otherwise. But we have always had a steady stream of players being promoted from the academy/RFC to the Scarlets squad and the pathway and been pretty clear and successful.

I'm just wondering why we seem to be moving away from a winning formula.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

Generally there's little to fault in the development approach taken historically and I don't think I've indicated otherwise. But we have always had a steady stream of players being promoted from the academy/RFC to the Scarlets squad and the pathway and been pretty clear and successful.

I'm just wondering why we seem to be moving away from a winning formula.
Dont think we are moving away from it: 

15-  Liam, Jordan, Steff Evs,  

13 – Steff Hughes

12 – Scott   

11-  Robinson, Tom Williams

10 – Shings, Aled, Josh, Dan Jones

9 – Aled, Cawdor, Rhodri, Connor  

7 – Cubby, Boyde  

6 – Shings, McCusker, Tom Phillips

5 – Rawlins,

4 - Ball

3 – Samson, Rhodri, Leung

2- Ken, Emyr, Ryan, Kirby

1 – Rob, Phil, Wyn  

All above players came through our system...ok, ball, rawlins and liam came to us via other clubs, but all been developed here...could argue that Jack Condy could be another. 

Just because one or two leaves, I dont think question marks are needed to be raised. Lets be honest, Warren was given numerous games and 3 coaches over looked him and even at the dragons, he is not guaranteed first team action at center. 

As for Josh, a little surprised he was not given a shot, he has PLENTY of areas to improve but chose to leave. 

One thing is fact, Tom Williams is definitely quicker than Josh. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 3:29pm
You've just illustrated, with a little embellishment, that it's worked up until now.
 
This summer's recruitment and releases suggest there may be a deviation from what we've done historically.
 
I fully appreciate that coaches see more of these players than us but I wouldn't like to see up end up losing players like Halfpenny and Sanjay like the Ospreys did because we made a call too quickly.
 
The premiership clubs have their part to play too but something just doesn't quite feel right at the moment.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

You've just illustrated, with a little embellishment, that it's worked up until now.
 
This summer's recruitment and releases suggest there may be a deviation from what we've done historically.
 
I fully appreciate that coaches see more of these players than us but I wouldn't like to see up end up losing players like Halfpenny and Sanjay like the Ospreys did because we made a call too quickly.
 
The premiership clubs have their part to play too but something just doesn't quite feel right at the moment.
 

I don't think Llanelli pay high wages to their players, i'm not suggesting for one moment there's anything wrong with that. However if that is the case, there are plenty of clubs who could offer a higher paid contract. That surely has a bearing on whether a player decides to move on or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 3:57pm
No doubt, but depends how the message is relayed to the player and the cost of the replacement, if a player is told that we want them to play for the RFC/Quins/Llandovery for a year and if they really kick on we'll want them back in the fold then they may turn down extra money and potentially move away.
 
Like I said I haven't got a clue about the detail of it all, maybe my thoughts are blurred by the semi pro clubs performances and a lack of any standout youngsters knocking on the door.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Gate12 Gate12 wrote:

You've just illustrated, with a little embellishment, that it's worked up until now.
 
This summer's recruitment and releases suggest there may be a deviation from what we've done historically.
 
I fully appreciate that coaches see more of these players than us but I wouldn't like to see up end up losing players like Halfpenny and Sanjay like the Ospreys did because we made a call too quickly.
 
The premiership clubs have their part to play too but something just doesn't quite feel right at the moment.
 
But exactly who should we have kept? 
Sion Bennett leaves, probably to make way for Tom Phillips who IMO has shown more promise. 
Scarlets seem to have chosen Leung over Sebastien. 
Kyle was in his mid 20s leaving. surely a line must be drawn somewhere and we made a call. 
Aaron Warren i thought they would have given a go but as you say, coaches see more of them. 
Anyone else? 

From what I can see, we had a pretty much a conveyor belt of players coming through that showed serious promise all coming through in the space of a few years...foxy, scott, priestland, ken, emyr, kirby, rob evans, samson, north, liam, etc...i dont think we have that many coming through at the moment and have signed players with experience to compliment what we have> We have youngsters coming through every single season, and we simply can not keep them all...the coaches know who is out of contract next year, they have a budget and also they know who is coming through the ranks in the new batch.

we just have to trust the coaches that they make the right call. Yes one or two will slip through the net...but wasnt it said a few years ago in a meet the coaches evening that they werent happy with the amount of players  or standard in certain positions for the next 2/3 years? Could be wrong with what i remember on that...but with little coming through in the last 2/3yrs or so in some positions, seems like we have hit a dry patch at the moment. swings and roundabouts...we will it seasons where we bring through 1 or 2 and others there will be a glut of them together. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 5:37pm
We all want the best possible Scarlets side, and we all want to win. The standard of teams that we come up against has improved tremendously in the last 15 years in power, pace and probably in skill levels. Whereas youngsters may have been allowed to develop at a more natural rate in the past, now they can't be allowed too much game time to learn and develop on the job if the team is to succeed. If Josh, Javan and Sion think that they are being treated unfairly here then they will try to find a team which will give them more game time. Josh seems to have the easiest task (and that won't be easy) but it will take a monumental effort to break into the Glasgow and Leicester? sides and I'm afraid we're more likely to see them playing for Aberafon or Newport in 3 years time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Opolis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2015 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Appreciate if you could ask on my behalf sir.

I'd like to know re Ryan and Tom in particular - Josh Helps and Connor Lloyd too.


Of course Wil, whenever the meet the coaches night is. Am I right in thinking the question is whether the above are in our plans going forward?

I note Ryan Elias isnt named in our squad, I'm hoping that's an oversight. Maybe he's still on a development contract.

Connor is named in the squad (with Quins?) and Tom Phillips is on Llanelli's books. Dont know about Helps, with Carmarthen perhaps?


Edited by Tim Opolis - 22 July 2015 at 6:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 4:21am
Yes, those are the sorts of questions and I think you've illustrated there the possible confusion...I guess the key question is are they Scarlet contracted players (Academy/Development/Full pro terms) or not...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 5:09am

As I've said before - I believe our region, with the Scarlets Academy pathway as the vehicle, delivers the best talent stream in Wales, and is the envy of others.

Back in the dark days of 2009/2010 season, when we finished one off bottom of the league, the seam of youth talent we had was pretty much the only positive in what was a dire time....and we blooded them en masse the following season..

That next season guys like Gareth D, Scott, Ken, Aaron, Foxy, North, Josh T, Gog, Emyr etc were all match day regulars by the end of the 2010/11 season...some have moved on to bigger or better things for sure...and we arguably haven't replaced them like for like either through acquisition, or through the development pathway...

We know the money is tight, and the price is too high for like for likes, so we have to reach out to our Development pathway more and more in my mind...right now I feel we are doing it less and less...

Now, as many have suggested...maybe there's a lean patch of quality product coming through, maybe we've decided we have enough depth and cover in certain positions, maybe the funding is an issue...but it's also possible that we have lost our bearings a little bit around the formula that has served us so well in the past perhaps..?

There are all debatable, but as well as bringing Tom Williams in for say Aaron Warren and Josh Adams...how about..
Dylan Evans for Gareth Thomas
Tom Price for Carwyn and/or Llewellyn Jones (or Josh Helps?)
Jack Condy for Sion Bennett
Wil Taylor for Javen Sebastian (how in the Helen of Troy can we develop a TH and then let him go..baffles me..they are like gold dust, and surely worth persevering with for a season or two! )


I am, by definition, a massive Academy pathway fan (this includes a season or so at the RFC/Quins/Drovers)...I get irritated when we don't tap in to the 18/19/20 year old players we have when we have a need...I get even more irritated when some are then released without any senior game time to speak of...seems like a complete waste to me...without even thinking what the players must think..
We want an elite pathway for sure, and you don't get an omelette without cracking a few eggs...right now I can't see the omelette!

See, we have 3 centre's in the Academy right now...Matthew Owen perhaps the pick of them, wonder how they feel when Adam Warren leaves and the management immediately say they need a replacement from outside the region...?

Tom Phillips is 110kgs, 6'4' back rower...wonder what he thinks when he see's us taking in the like of Condy, Jones (no dis-respect meant to either there)

Josh Helps stats from Wales age grade says he was 110kgs and 6'6'-and that was 15 months ago..is he a trade down to Tom Price ?


There are some flaws in our pathway, of course there are, nothing is perfect, why we need 3 x 18/19 year old Scrum halves in the Academy (when you consider the SH profile we have) I'm not sure about...seems like a heartbreak waiting to happen...but the route is time tested and a proven winner...like I said earlier..10 Academy pathway players in today's Wales RWC squad is testament to that.

Give the kids a go mun !




Edited by Wil Chips - 23 July 2015 at 5:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 8:40am

What he said.

In addition when the margin is really close in terms of who you release and who you bring in you've also got to factor in the time and effort that goes into rearranging the deckchairs, the disruption it causes and what impact it has on the mindset of the rest of the squad or youngsters coming through.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote InTheBath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 9:02am
We really need an A-Team to give these guys higher level game time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Havard Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 1:00pm
I've heard that Dan Thomas has signed a 3 year full pro contract with Gloucester. Seems to be impressing there. Another to our let go list I suppose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Havard Fan Havard Fan wrote:

I've heard that Dan Thomas has signed a 3 year full pro contract with Gloucester. Seems to be impressing there. Another to our let go list I suppose.
He started to play well at the end of the season but we are well stocked at 7 and I think Will Boyd is a better prospect anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:


As I've said before - I believe our region, with the Scarlets Academy pathway as the vehicle, delivers the best talent stream in Wales, and is the envy of others.

Back in the dark days of 2009/2010 season, when we finished one off bottom of the league, the seam of youth talent we had was pretty much the only positive in what was a dire time....and we blooded them en masse the following season..

That next season guys like Gareth D, Scott, Ken, Aaron, Foxy, North, Josh T, Gog, Emyr etc were all match day regulars by the end of the 2010/11 season...some have moved on to bigger or better things for sure...and we arguably haven't replaced them like for like either through acquisition, or through the development pathway...

We know the money is tight, and the price is too high for like for likes, so we have to reach out to our Development pathway more and more in my mind...right now I feel we are doing it less and less...

Now, as many have suggested...maybe there's a lean patch of quality product coming through, maybe we've decided we have enough depth and cover in certain positions, maybe the funding is an issue...but it's also possible that we have lost our bearings a little bit around the formula that has served us so well in the past perhaps..?

There are all debatable, but as well as bringing Tom Williams in for say Aaron Warren and Josh Adams...how about..
Dylan Evans for Gareth Thomas
Tom Price for Carwyn and/or Llewellyn Jones (or Josh Helps?)
Jack Condy for Sion Bennett
Wil Taylor for Javen Sebastian (how in the Helen of Troy can we develop a TH and then let him go..baffles me..they are like gold dust, and surely worth persevering with for a season or two! )


I am, by definition, a massive Academy pathway fan (this includes a season or so at the RFC/Quins/Drovers)...I get irritated when we don't tap in to the 18/19/20 year old players we have when we have a need...I get even more irritated when some are then released without any senior game time to speak of...seems like a complete waste to me...without even thinking what the players must think..
We want an elite pathway for sure, and you don't get an omelette without cracking a few eggs...right now I can't see the omelette!

See, we have 3 centre's in the Academy right now...Matthew Owen perhaps the pick of them, wonder how they feel when Adam Warren leaves and the management immediately say they need a replacement from outside the region...?

Tom Phillips is 110kgs, 6'4' back rower...wonder what he thinks when he see's us taking in the like of Condy, Jones (no dis-respect meant to either there)

Josh Helps stats from Wales age grade says he was 110kgs and 6'6'-and that was 15 months ago..is he a trade down to Tom Price ?


There are some flaws in our pathway, of course there are, nothing is perfect, why we need 3 x 18/19 year old Scrum halves in the Academy (when you consider the SH profile we have) I'm not sure about...seems like a heartbreak waiting to happen...but the route is time tested and a proven winner...like I said earlier..10 Academy pathway players in today's Wales RWC squad is testament to that.

Give the kids a go mun !



I see T Phillips as more of a 6 with Condy an out and out 8, put them 2 along with W Boyde in the BIC could be the start of a good backrow trio
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turkishrebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2015 at 1:27pm
is Josh Helps still with us? his stats show in the info that will chips showed as being a big lad and with further development he could be more than useful
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