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Scarlets Supporters for Independence

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totallybiasedscarlet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scarlets Supporters for Independence
    Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:


I am open to reasoned debate or an exchange between intellects however I fear you are hopelessly led by a hatrid for the country that has supported “you” (Wales) for generations.


"You" ? Would you care to elaborate?

Hatred? Well given that a quarter of my ancestry is English that would be a bit silly.

Supported Wales for generations? I suggest you head down to the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea. Wales was the first nation to be heavily industrialised. Our industries operated on a global scale. The vast majority of the profits were not invested in Wales but went through London either privately or to the treasury coffers. Wales was a net contributor to the UK for a long time.

The Thatcher era ditched the last of those big industries with no regard for social consequences and no plan to replace the jobs lost. The Major government did nothing and inflicted Redwood on us. Blair gave us Welsh Labour's hedgemonic control of the assembly, basically control of the Barnett Formula. They've completely abused their position of government.

Had we had home rule when Lloyd George campaigned for it we'd have had a far more developed and mature government in Wales by now with a vested interest in growing and investing in our economy. The unfolding economic circumstances of the 20th and early 21st century and the loss of economic capital of the 19th are an abject lesson in the disadvantages of the lack of self-government.


Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 09 November 2018 at 10:49pm
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

At which point did I refer to you as “village idiots”, I maintain the thought process of devolution to be iodiotic and that it tends to stem from a “village mentality” in that it is an extremely insular viewpoint on the world.

Let’s look at Wales as a business, if it were filing accounts with an £8billion annual shortfall then it’s lifespan would be extremely short lived unless drastic changes and cost cutting were made.

My argument may seem a little hostile but I cannot agree with such bigotry behaviour, people quoting Glyndwr, blaming the monarchy, making ridiculous financial statements. As this is an open forum then I am taking a morale stance to ensure that a far more accurate light is shed on your idiocynratic ideologies.

If Wales would be so much better as a stand alone country then it would need strong leadership, with epic failures such as Clapham Ron as first minister for Wales, forgive me for lacking confidence in the WAG.

I am open to reasoned debate or an exchange between intellects however I fear you are hopelessly led by a hatrid for the country that has supported “you” (Wales) for generations.




That's what you've implied and your primary line of reasoning is Wales is too rubbish to run its own affairs and any view to the contrary is crazy.

I disagree. I also find the accusations of bigotry insulting and I absolutely refute that line of argument. I think it betrays an angry reaction to a point of view with which you disagree. I think it is very far from the truth. Further to some of your points.

1. On a mean Tax/GDP ratio a Welsh Government would have a budget of £25-30Bn
2. There are smaller countries than Wales that manage perfectly well
3. The fact that Wales has not been governed properly is precisely what has led to the current situation
4. We have often run a trade surplus over the past century - that's not our problem economically speaking, our problem is productivity, the lack of finished goods manufacturing, the poor GVA that results and an obsession with inward investment over and above growing our own businesses.
5. Wales has been governed by avowed unionists for eons. They feed a centralised UK structure which does very little to develop Wales' economy for the benefit of Wales.
6. Current statements putting public spending in Wales at circa £32Bn in 2017. This includes spending on nuclear deterrents and HS2 and various other projects that do not bring an economic benefit to Wales let alone are even spent in Wales.
7. The taxes raised in Wales figures are not accurate. They are estimates and those that made them have acknowledged that there is much that is not known due to the way in which economic activity is accounted for. The GDP figures give a much more likely view.

The gap is not as big as is made out. The only party advocating a full sovereign parliament for Wales also advocates EU membership. This is so far from being "village mentality" or "isolationism" its absurd to label it as such. This is about ensuring our nation and communities are both economically and culturally sustainable. Without our own government we are chaff on the wind. The only point I agree with you is that we need strong leadership. That's why we need to grow up in terms of our political culture.

In short I want my nation to govern its own affairs and play its part amongst other nations. I am not ashamed of this. By embarking on this project we will make a better future for ourselves.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 9:27pm
At which point did I refer to you as “village idiots”, I maintain the thought process of devolution to be iodiotic and that it tends to stem from a “village mentality” in that it is an extremely insular viewpoint on the world.

Let’s look at Wales as a business, if it were filing accounts with an £8billion annual shortfall then it’s lifespan would be extremely short lived unless drastic changes and cost cutting were made.

My argument may seem a little hostile but I cannot agree with such bigotry behaviour, people quoting Glyndwr, blaming the monarchy, making ridiculous financial statements. As this is an open forum then I am taking a morale stance to ensure that a far more accurate light is shed on your idiocynratic ideologies.

If Wales would be so much better as a stand alone country then it would need strong leadership, with epic failures such as Clapham Ron as first minister for Wales, forgive me for lacking confidence in the WAG.

I am open to reasoned debate or an exchange between intellects however I fear you are hopelessly led by a hatrid for the country that has supported “you” (Wales) for generations.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 8:23pm
Philturk, sorry I think it's you who's blinkered here. I've given you reasoned responses to what are rather angry assertions and oftentimes plain insults.

I would try to give you a further reasoned response but if the best you can do is call us village idiots there isn't much to engage with you is there?

I'll just say this, wanting a sovereign Parliament for Wales and wanting to engage with the other British Nations and more widely with the EU and the rest of the world is far from isolationist. It's about wanting to grow our economy and make our communities and nation far more sustainable. I think you're very wrong in your outlook on this matter, but then if that's your deeply held opinion you've every right to hold it. Excuse me if I disagree however. I would appreciate if you were a little less hostile.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 4:59pm
I didn’t say anything about being entitled to an opinion, I was merely trying to understand what made you so blinkered.

I genuinely don’t care what page of the history books you feel the need to quote next, whilst I appreciate how great your village may have been when there was no electricity let alone internet. I strongly suggest you embrace the outside world rather than neglect it and isolate yourselves.

None of you can answer how Wales is going to get make up the deficit in money needed to sustain the country, not without huge cuts in expenditure and benefits.

Oh wait, you’ll want handouts from the EU despite most of you voting leave (based on stats of leave votes cast in Wales)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:25pm
For your information Philturk I lived in London for six years in places as diverse as Streatham, Euston, Dagenham and Hammersmith and I think I got to know and understand quite a few of the locals. 
What I can't understand is how someone with your views can have the cheek to use a fiery dragon as your logo - surely a poodle hanging on to the coat-tails of a minor royal would be more appropriate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

You clearly skipped the chapter on Henry Bolingbroke....
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Your argument is so weak it’s laughable! “How much of that does wales get” ? Well seeing as Westminster subsides Wales to the tune of £8Bn per year in terms of taxation as opposed to public spending then I’d suggest Wales is doing pretty well from the deal.

Seeing as your argument is based on something that happened 600 years ago I’d suggest that maybe it’s time to move on an embrace the new world.

Wales cannot stand alone, any industry left is heavily subsidised by the U.K. and EU! Just look at how much EU funding has been poured into Wales, take the A465 redevelopment (Wales can’t even build adequate transport links without big brother - the EU helping it)

I wonder how many of you with such pathetically blinkered views have lived outside of Wales and experiences there is a world outside of your immediate surroundings (and no going to the same place in Spain and drinking in an Irish bar doesn’t count)

Does 3 years living & working in Africa & 12 years in Kent count?Am I then entitled to an opinion because clearly if I'd lived & worked in Rhydcymerau all my life, regardless of my education & life experiences I have pathetically blinkered views. Your overbearing attitude is a wonderful example of what can & sometimes does go wrong with this forum. Your view is no more or less important than anybody elses; the sooner you understand that the better!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.


But why did you feel the need to type English then? There are plenty of Monarchists in Wales and Scotland too.

Those shouting for independence have to be sure that they are doing it the correct way. That is; building up an argument that supports a PRO WALES agenda and not one that is ANTI ENGLAND.

Just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:56pm
Your argument is so weak it’s laughable! “How much of that does wales get” ? Well seeing as Westminster subsides Wales to the tune of £8Bn per year in terms of taxation as opposed to public spending then I’d suggest Wales is doing pretty well from the deal.

Seeing as your argument is based on something that happened 600 years ago I’d suggest that maybe it’s time to move on an embrace the new world.

Wales cannot stand alone, any industry left is heavily subsidised by the U.K. and EU! Just look at how much EU funding has been poured into Wales, take the A465 redevelopment (Wales can’t even build adequate transport links without big brother - the EU helping it)

I wonder how many of you with such pathetically blinkered views have lived outside of Wales and experiences there is a world outside of your immediate surroundings (and no going to the same place in Spain and drinking in an Irish bar doesn’t count)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

And how much of that does Wales see? 

Good question Scarletnut. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

 
Glyndwr led the campaign to resist English colonisation of Wales, that is, to maintain our independence. At the time there wasn't a lot of democracy around to enable us to have leaders other than princes or clerics. 
The royal family, that people like yourself want  to preserve as head of state for England, Wales and the rest of the colonies, is a feudal reminder, in a modern time, of a past when the "werin" knew their place and the power of the rulers was absolute. Our sycophantic media know that to get on, they have to keep quiet about the class struggle that has removed the monarchy from most modern states, but has given lucky us the farce of a feudal monarchy whose origins are not even English.  But please  don't mention their Germanic origins during the odd decade when Her Majesty's Government want to recruit young men to give their lives fighting the Fatherland.

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.


I'm with you Ffidel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

And how much of that does Wales see? 
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by philturk philturk wrote:

Above comment epitomises everything I was saying about Welsh bigotry!

Default setting of regressing back in time 600 years which is totally invalid in terms of making judgements on our future. Followed by misguided comments on the monarchy who generate far more in tourism than they cost and may I add stinks of double standards when you mention Glyndwr but neglect to acknowledge the history of the monarchy and the need to preserve it

 
Glyndwr led the campaign to resist English colonisation of Wales, that is, to maintain our independence. At the time there wasn't a lot of democracy around to enable us to have leaders other than princes or clerics. 
The royal family, that people like yourself want  to preserve as head of state for England, Wales and the rest of the colonies, is a feudal reminder, in a modern time, of a past when the "werin" knew their place and the power of the rulers was absolute. Our sycophantic media know that to get on, they have to keep quiet about the class struggle that has removed the monarchy from most modern states, but has given lucky us the farce of a feudal monarchy whose origins are not even English.  But please  don't mention their Germanic origins during the odd decade when Her Majesty's Government want to recruit young men to give their lives fighting the Fatherland.

As for Kid A's comment about me calling the English "braindead" . I wasn't implying that every English person was braindead - only the monarchists.  Some of my best friends are English, but oddly enough none of them are monarchists.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


the English braindead?


If someone tried to back up a point by ending a statement with '.........the Welsh braindead', I'm sure you'd have something to say.

An argument is a whole lot more convincing when it doesn't resort to insults.

Having said all that, I was sorely tempted to insult someone to make myself feel better when I saw this yesterday.


Too right - blo..y cheek. !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2018 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:


the English braindead?


If someone tried to back up a point by ending a statement with '.........the Welsh braindead', I'm sure you'd have something to say.

An argument is a whole lot more convincing when it doesn't resort to insults.

Having said all that, I was sorely tempted to insult someone to make myself feel better when I saw this yesterday.

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